The Shootist

[imjin138]

Yesterday I took my daughters to the zoo in Milwaukee and we finished about 2PM. I had nothing to read at home so we stopped by the public library in Racine and I checked out a book titled 'The Shootist' I read it years ago before seeing the movie. I like the book and the movie though they are different in some respects.

The Movie I first saw back in 76 with my Grandfather at an old theater named the Capitol one screen, a balcony just like you think movie theaters should be and it was pretty neat. I have seen the movie many times since then and I always enjoy it.

From the DVD I have of it, it is pretty clear that John Wayne campaigned to get the role. Apparently George C. Scott, Gene Hackman and James Coburn were considered. But The Duke's health was an issue for the producers, he got the role and I cannot imagine anyone else playing J. B. Books.

Also according to the DVD Hugh O'Brian who played Jack Pulford didn't take a salary in order to get the role just so he could play opposite the Duke.

I didn't realize it was on AMC last night until I looked at the guide so I watched it again. I still like the movie and probably always will.

[ACP230]

I like the movie. Particularly the opening scene.

[sigp220.45]

I liked it, but the not-so-subtle anti-gun, anti-violence message at the end bugs me - Ron Howard looking at Books' blood spattered Colt, then throwing it away in disgust while Books nods his approval and croaks. I wish he would have wiped it clean with his shirt and stuck it in his waistband.

[imjin138]

In the novel, Gillom wasn't such a nice guy, he actually put Books out ofhis misery.

[ladder13]

Good movie, just watched it again.

[Faulkner]

The Shootist was the only John Wayne movie I saw when it was originally in the theaters. I was in middle school then and I can remember the Duke being larger than life.

[Wyatt Burp]

Guys drop like flies in western movie gunfights, but this film emphasized the idea of "deliberation" as discussed between John Wayne and the kid. And Books does not not hesitate at all. But others do and get killed by him for it. I always liked the macabre idea Books has about going out fighting. He wanted to end it in a shootout and chose three unsavory guys to do it. If they can. Then when the time comes his survival instincts kick in and we all know what happens then.
If I was there I'd go around back and grab that engraved Great Western .45 Ron Howard threw away like an idiot.

[DOEBOY1]

If memory serves me I thought Ron Howard was anti gun. I try and steer clear or anti gunners and promoting anything they do to make a living. I think Steve Stegal is anti gun also so I stopped watching his movies. Besides the hypocritcy he runs like a sissy. Doeboy

[Old 44 Guy]

The Shootist is my favorite John Wayne movie. He goes out with class. Never mind the last scene with Gillam, he's just doing his best for Hollywood anti gunners. It was J.W.'s last film.

[bk43]

Originally Posted by DOEBOY1

I think Steve Stegal is anti gun also so I stopped watching his movies.

Seagal is an almost total whack job IMHO but he is also a reserve deputy, martial arms expert and ace custom 1911 shooter and owner. Favors Caspians I believe.

On topic, I can't watch either Gran Torino or The Shootist without thinking of the other. The parallels are scary and probably Clint's final role also.

Bob

[usmc1369]

the shootist is a good movie but john wayne was a wussy don't ever forget that he made movies while others did their part. even reagan made vd movies for the cause

[Faulkner]

Originally Posted by usmc1369

the shootist is a good movie but john wayne was a wussy don't ever forget that he made movies while others did their part. even reagan made vd movies for the cause

The post above, while not necessarily untrue, leaves an impression that is not totally accurate.

The controversy over why John Wayne did not enlist has never subsided. His critics have always maintained that none of his excuses for staying at home and building his career while Americans were fighting and dying for their country held up in the light of his purported patriotism.

It is true that a number of those who were actors before the outbreak of war did enlist, but very few of them actually saw combat. They were considered too valuable to lose in war and most of them were kept out of harm’s way. Their jobs were often in intelligence or in boosting morale among the enlisted men and very rarely did they go into danger zones. Very often, when they did, it was all a matter of propaganda concocted between the major studios and the American military.

James Stewart was an exception. He joined the army air force and risked his life in thirty bombing raids, rising to the rank of colonel during the war. Clark Gable enlisted in the army air force as well in a state of grief after he lost his wife, Carole Lombard, in an airplane crash during a tour to raise war bonds. His job was to film actual combat from American bombers in action, earning himself the rank of major.

Because John Wayne had four children, he was exempt from the draft, but that would not have prevented him from enlisting. So why did he stay out of uniform? Wayne insisted that he did try to enlist but was rejected because he was unfit due to a shoulder injury back in college, a chronic inner-ear problem from working underwater for so long when making Reap the Wild Wind, and a bad back from doing so many of his own stunts. Another reason given was that Herbert Yates of Republic Studios refused to release him from his studio contract. All the other actors who enlisted had to have the approval from their studios.

Studio director George Sherman said, “It frustrated Duke like hell that he couldn’t join up. Despite his screen image of being a tough guy who couldn’t be beaten in a fistfight, he was, by 1941, in pretty bad shape. There were times around 1939 when we were working and he’d do a stunt and really hurt himself. His back had taken so much beating that he suffered for many years, but he never complained about it and still insisted on doing some of his own stunts. In the end, I was one of a number of people who said to him that he could serve his country best by making films to boost public morale. And that’s what he did. But I know he felt tremendous guilt about not serving. It’s plagued him all his life.”

[max]

I believe that John Wayne was physically unable to serve. That being said, I believe he did as much for the war effort as anyone.

The day I took my physical there was a college football player who flunked his. He went on to play pro football and I got drafted.

[sigp220.45]

He was never 4F. Initially he was deferred for family support reasons, was later classified as 1A but that was changed to 2A (deferred for the national interest), allegedly after pressure by the studio.

He could have enlisted any time he wanted. My Dad enlisted in the Army Air Corps and even though he was an enlisted guy who mostly drove trucks he's waaaaaaaay more of a hero than "The Duke" could ever have been.

I do like his movies, though. He just chose to play hero rather than be one.

[Gregor]

John Benner from TDI uses scenes from "The Shootist" to illustrate gunfight tactics. Mainly the mindset, then then final shootout in the saloon.

[Gun Smoke]

My favorite Duke movie is the "The man who shot Liberty Valance" but the Shootist is a close second...I read a funny story about John Wayne recently....Had been to a movie promotion with his agent and was in full cowboy outfit gunbelt, hat and spurs and while driving back to his hotel he had to use the restroom so his agent pulled into a dive of a beer joint and the Duke walked in and walked past everyone drinking at the bar and did his business and walked out, tipped his Stetson and remained straight faced but when he got back in the car he laughed all the way back telling his agent that when he walked in the music stopped and everyone stopped in mid drink and he said you could hear a pin drop....

[Bat Guano]

A few years ago the screenwriter for "The Shootist" gave a presentation over at the museum at Cody on the movie and how and why it came out the way it did. He was the son of the original author, Glendon Swarthout. Pretty interesting. He also wrote a sequel to it in which the kid goes on in life to "enjoy" a rep as the person who killed Books, and his later life turns out.

The elder Swarthout wrote some pretty intense westerns: "They Came to Cordura", "Tin Lizzie Troop" and so on.

I agree on the incredible parallels between this movie and Gran Torino. Very powerful movies.

[imjin138]

I have read both of those books and enjoyed them, I would like to read the sequel to the Shootist.



As for being a hero, John Wayne did not serve in the military that is true, I still like his movies. Mike Farrel and Alan Alda both served in the military and I can't stand either one of them.

I served as an 11B and I'm no hero either just did what I was trained to do.

[feralmerril]

Here is what wickipedia has got to say about john waynes not going in the service:John Wayne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I would like to add my few thoughts: First, he was really close to 35 years old at the time of pearl harbor. 2nd, he had I think, 4 kids. Also the studio threatned to sue him if he enlisted. I havent been in the service either but tried to enlist a number of times and was rejected for health reasons so maybe I aint qualified for my views, but I would guess it would have been highly unlikely that the service would have put him in harms way due to both his advanced age and also being so high profile. No doubt he knew that, and that weighed with the other factors already stated along with his golden oppertuneity of just starting to be a top star no doubt influeanced his thinking. I know I will give him a pass on it!

[watchmanjimg]

Same here. At the very least his films boosted morale and national pride.

[usmc1369]

well im glad to see so many people are giving the duke a free pass but he was still a chickenhawk

[crows]

[QUOTE=usmc1369;135585103]well im glad to see so many people are giving the duke a free pass but he was still a chickenhawk [/QUOTE
Amen. I've seen 48+ year olds in Iraq running combat missions everyday. I've also seen MANY men with children (several with more than 5) going in harm's way. All they lacked was the high dollar salary of a "star".

[feralmerril]

Question for you old vets, or anyone else. I could be wrong, but does anyone here seriously belive that had the duke fought all sources just to go fight, that any branch of the service at that time would have let him?
I really dont! I dont belive this country would have taken the chance of him getting killed in combat because he was so high profile at the time that it would have demoralised the country!
I am sure he must have knew that too. Sure, they would have used him for propaganda purpose,s like they did clark gable. Another thought. Name me just one already movie star that was killed in combat! I dont belive you can.

[imjin138]

You know, I am at the point where I am sorry I even started this thread.

[sigp220.45]

feral - Both Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable were much bigger stars than John Wayne at the time, and both of them went in harm's way. Gable was a cameraman aboard a plane which was struck by enemy fire, killing one of the crew, while Stewart piloted bombers over Germany.

I think what's irksome about John Wayne's lack of service is that later he became such a patriotic icon and was more than happy to wear the uniform as long as he got a big check and only had to face blanks.

That said, I still love his movies. If I'm ever feeling low I can find Rio Bravo or Big Jake on the tube somewhere and its like a visit from an old friend.

[feralmerril]

I know someone is going to remind me of jimmy stewart. Yes that is the one exception. Even then, stewart was a pilot for a long time before the war. James Stewart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No way would the air corp train someone 35 years old like wayne to be a pilot if they already werent.
That didnt take long, you posted while I wrote. Anyway I stand corrected! I guess we wore this out. I never met wayne, but jimmy stewart once bought my lunch when I was a studio guard when he made "The rare breed". A reel gentilman! (Couldnt help that, I am a BAD speller ya know!)

[MaximumLawman]

It's entertainment. No need to make it more than it is. People generally don't die as quick or as "classy" as they do in the movies after being shot with a pistol.

[Frank237]

Originally Posted by imjin138

You know, I am at the point where I am sorry I even started this thread.

No lie! We have come to a sorry point when even John Wayne gets pot shots from someone behind a keyboard. Wonder if any of you nay sayers would have the balls to tell him the same to his face?? I'd bet not.

FN in MT

[4864]

My all time favorite John Wayne movie. I need to go read the book.

[walnutred]

Whenever I here the John Wayne debate I think of my dad and almost laugh. Dad was a Vet of both WW2 and Korea and had a slight grudge against The Duke. Not because Wayne didn't fight in WW2 but because somehow Wayne allegedly bought a surplus mine sweeper after WW2, turned it into his private fishing boat, then never paid the Government for it.

I have no idea where dad got the story or if the story is even true, but dad firmly believed it. ;-D He felt a man should pay their debts and Wayne had not paid for the boat.

Henry Fonda was in the Pacific Theater during WW2 and I think he was older than Wayne.

[wbraswell]

If Duke's back was in that kind of shape, I seriously doubt he could have served. My father was just in supply on a USAAF base and they drummed him out when they found that he had arthritis, in 1944.

[ladder13]

Let's see...Oliver Stone or John Wayne....... which one has done the most damage to this nation?

[usmc1369]

Originally Posted by Frank237

No lie! We have come to a sorry point when even John Wayne gets pot shots from someone behind a keyboard. Wonder if any of you nay sayers would have the balls to tell him the same to his face?? I'd bet not.

FN in MT

you bet wrong he was just a man and not much of one to me

[Walter Rego]

I don't know if the story about the mine sweeper is true or not but after Wayne died the boat was sold and has been used for private charters ever since. It is named The Wild Goose. In fact I went out to Catalina Island on it with crew of Playboy Bunnies in 1983, and went aboard for a little private tour in Newport Harbor just last year. It's a beautiful craft and well maintained.

Originally Posted by walnutred

Whenever I here the John Wayne debate I think of my dad and almost laugh. Dad was a Vet of both WW2 and Korea and had a slight grudge against The Duke. Not because Wayne didn't fight in WW2 but because somehow Wayne allegedly bought a surplus mine sweeper after WW2, turned it into his private fishing boat, then never paid the Government for it.

I have no idea where dad got the story or if the story is even true, but dad firmly believed it. ;-D He felt a man should pay their debts and Wayne had not paid for the boat.

Henry Fonda was in the Pacific Theater during WW2 and I think he was older than Wayne.

[semperfi71]

It was a Marine who once said of a Medal of Honor winner who otherwise turned out to be a first class jerk.

"Praise the deed and not the man."

I suspect that John Wayne could have been a "draft-dodger". I suspect that he could have not served due to health issues and "Hollywood Bosses."

I wasn't privy to anything that happened then. I just don't know.

I do know I have met combat Vets who despised John Wayne and others who seemed to like him.

I do know that literally thousands of men, even some from foreign shores, have aspired to be like the movie characters John Wayne portrayed. And a lot of women as well. Very few succeeded but they were better off than styling themselves after Alan Alda, or Johnny Depp.

When I was in the Marines [1971/1975] it was popular to hear from a D.I or infantry troop leader; "Who do you think you are? John Wayne?", this when us, the lowly boots/trainees were trying to look a bit more "salty" or less "boot".

In the Army the C-Rat can opener was called a "P-38". In the Marines it was a "John Wayne" can opener.

When somebody did something "heroic" it was spoke of as; "He went and did a John Wayne."

I consider John Wayne to be the modern American equivelant of Beowulf. A mythical man who is of such heroic porportion that many others attempt to emulate him.

I am glad this thread about the "Shootist" was started.

I knew when I went to see the movie it was to be his last. I just felt it. I left sad. I later was proven right.

My favorite J.W. western movie is the "Searchers". Second is "Big Jake".

I do consider a few other western actors as perhaps sometimes better in some of their films, such as Jimmy Stewart, or Alan Ladd in "Shane". But overall J.W. took the genre of westerns to a high level.

I have read whereby Tom Selleck supposedly said something to the effect that it was hard to make a western now days because John Wayne will always be tough to beat.

I can think of actors who served in real wars and others who did not. Most importantly I can think of actors who created a role, if even for one movie, that was worth watching, and others who never were worth watching in any role [this includes women].

I'll always watch John Wayne and enjoy the fantasy.

[Joeygun]

The Shootist is a great movie and I will now have to read the book.
I grew up loving John Wayne movies. My father had a John Wayne coffee mug "Tall in the Saddle" and some commerative John Wayne ammunition boxes displayed on top of his gun cabinets. Safes weren't invented yet and my parent's house guests never batted an eye...heck, some were impressed.

Anyhoot, I can't hold a grudge against him, because I'll never know the truth about his reasons for not serving. (That being said I never saw combat even though I served, but I can appreciate and respect the feelings of a combat soldier on the matter). I will say that he was and is a hero from my childhood, that as a character he provided some life lessons for a young man to admire....like in the Sands of Iwo Jima..."hell yeah I am scared" or something to that effect, and he still carried out, providing purose, direction, and motivation to the Marines that followed Sgt. Stryker.

Tom Selleck does a great job and I understand he is super pro-gun and perhaps one of our most articulate and famous spokespersons as gun owners. With that being said he is from a different era and John Wayne is and will always be larger than life and so be it. Ultimately, in his afterlife he may or may not regret how things turned out regarding him not serving.....he has to sleep with that, not me.

[feralmerril]

In Iwo jima, it ends with striker at the end of the battle saying, "I never felt better in my life" just then a jap pops up out of a hole and shoots him! I wasnt in either and wont judge. I had a close friend that saw a lot of action in world war two, a marine. I remember him telling me "It seemed to make no difference how bad or good of a solider you were. He said sometimes the best solider would get killed along side of the worst in the outfit. Lou, who I am talking about had the whitest hair you ever saw. He told me it turned white overnight. He and his buddys were wadeing a river and the japs were waiting for them under water breathing through hollow bamboo or whatever. The japs all had knifes and stabbed many of them. He said thats how his hair turned so white!

[Faulkner]

I appreciate the veterans who have served our country more than you can ever know. But, frankly, veterans don't own the spirit of patriotism. He may not have served in the military, but I think the Duke was a patriot none the less.

[MMA10mm]

Lots of interesting myths about John Wayne.

Regarding whether he paid the government for the Wild Goose; he did not. He bought it from a prior owner who would have been the one to buy it from the government:

Minshall served 16 years on the vessel, where Wayne relaxed and entertained his friends. Only a few were movie stars, such as Claire Trevor, Hugh O'Brian, Dean Martin and Maureen O'Hara. Two of his favorite shipmates were Newport Beach car dealer Chick Iverson and Max Wyman, from whom he bought the boat in 1962.

Wayne bought the boat for a little over $100,000.00

As far as him wanting / trying to get into the service, there's this:

He did well at school both academically and in football. When he narrowly failed admission to Annapolis he went to USC on a football scholarship 1925-7. In a 1976 interview, he said the greatest disappointment of his life was missing an appointment to the U.S. Naval Academy by one position.

And here's a very cogent discussion here:
The Straight Dope: Was John Wayne a draft dodger?

I recall having watched a show, possibly with Lucille Ball, and other old-school Hollywood types, talking about "the old days" and commenting on the situation talked about in the link above, wherein Wayne's career was just taking off and he was not yet solidly established. In fact, arguably, it was during the war years that his carreer really, finally took off.

Angel and the Badman showed the studios he could be a successful leading man, but it was not until the war movies that his career really took off. Bottom line - it was a business decision. Could there have been a little resentment about not getting into the Academy? Maybe, but I doubt it, considering how many of his military roles were naval ones, and he did buy the minesweeper! :-)

My grandpa was 2-A deferred during the war, because he built Caterpillar tractors for the Seabees and Engineers to advance across the Pacific and Europe. He never got a lick of grief about it from his two brothers who fought in the war.

[imjin138]

I wasn't around back then so I don't know for sure why he didn't enlist, niether did Gregory Peck or Van Johnson. George Reeves did just as his career started and he stayed in for the duration and when he got out he played small roles in the movies and ended up playing Superman.

I am sure that happened to a lot of men who enlisted, they had good jobs or careers when they went in, some didn't come back and some of those who did found their career path passed them by.

Each man and women who enlists or does not enlist has to look inside themselves for the reason.

The other actor whose movies I really enjoy was probably underage when he enlisted and didn't become an actor until after the war. A lot of people don't like his movies either but I watch Audie Murphy movies all the time.

[cowart]

Originally Posted by bk43

Gran Torino... probably Clint's final role

He is still active as both a director and producer. He did "Invictus" in 2009 and both "Hoover" and "Hereafter" this year.

[The Last Standing Knight]

A lot of comment has been made on Mr. Wayne's lack of service and the reasons. This to me is a moot point, most of the people involved have long since departed this realm. He made the attempt and that to me is far more effort than many tough talkers do.
Mr. Wayne was loved/hated and is whatever anyone may think otherwise, an American Icon, known around the globe. He was a legend in his own lifetime and knew it.
He has played roles where he was an officer or enlisted man in every branch of the service except the USCG. Since a lot of interservice rivalry exists, I'm kind of glad he didn't serve in one branch or the other.
Had he. as planned, gotten a Naval officer commission....he would've "belonged" to the Navy and as such, no other branch would've ever lived it down (Think comments like "Yeah, he played a Marine Sergeant, but he was a NAVY officer!")
We all have our own assigned missions in life; John Wayne had his. No, it didn't involve the military, but there are a lot of cops, fire fighters, emt's and so on that are heroes in real life who never wore or desired to wear a military uniform. They still serve and in their own way.

[bubbiesdad]

Watching the Shootist now, noticed when he was unpacking at the rooming house that he was constantly pointing his revolver at Mrs. Rogers,(Lauren Bacall).

[Ivan the Butcher]

I share the bitrhday with Mr. Brooks, that is the day I saw it the first time, a great preasent from my big brother.