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********PLEASE SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE********
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This can be a open dialogue about Private Firearm Sales
from an average joe to another average joe.
Even discussion about State to State (cross state lines),
including crossing multiple state lines.
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********PLEASE SHARE YOUR KNOWLEDGE********
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My specific question is...

1. I live in WASHINGTON and would like to sell a handgun to a friend of mines in CALIFORNIA. Is this legal?

2. Can we just meet in OREGON and make the sale face to face?

3. Or do we have to go through an FFL dealer/person?
Federal Firearms License - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

4. What kind of cost's am I looking at to make sure this sale is legal?

Thank you for your time...

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)))X~ silvercn ~X(((

Kalifornia being what it is, I would assume you need to do the transfer through a Dealer.

If you are a non-licensee (you have no FFL) it is my understanding that you may not purchase a handgun across State lines without going through a dealer/FFL. Additionally, you cannot travel to another State and purchase a handgun and then transport it back into your State.

Per Federal Regulations, across-State-Line purchases of handguns must go something like this (Sate laws vary wildly):

1) The handgun has to be shipped to a dealer/FFL in the State of the buyer. It is not required that the shipper be an FFL, a private citizen can ship a handgun. The USPS will not accept a handgun for mailing by a non-dealer. The only options available are FedEx and UPS. Both of these private carriers require overnight shipping for handguns.

2) Once the handgun is at the dealer in the State that the Buyer lives in, he can walk in and purchase the handgun just like any other handgun that dealer has.

A couple things important to note: Some dealers do not accept firearms from non-dealers. They insist that you use a dealer to send a firearm (and in some States, it might even be that State's law that all shipments of firearms come from a dealer out-of-State)
C&R firearms are different. If you have a C&R FFL and are buying a C&R handgun, that handgun can be shipped directly to you (by Federal standards, State laws may vary) Shipping C&R handguns is interesting. The PO regulation does not say that "it's OK to ship from an FFL holder to an FFL holder" The regulations specifically use the word 'dealer' ..... well - as an 03/FFL you know that you aren't a 'dealer' My local postmaster believes that an FFL is an FFL and he says you can ship C&R eligible handguns as an 03/FFL using the Post Office - I don't think that's true and the once or twice I have shipped a C&R handgun, I have either used UPS, or I went to my local gun shop and hsd him put the gun in his books and shipped from a 'dealer' to another dealer. To me - it's best not to tempt fate. I bet I could have used the PO with no problem, but if the package got lost or stolen and I had to file a claim, that would not stay at the level of my local postmaster (that said it was OK) and I don't want to end up in a cell somewhere holding the bars saying, "But the postmaster said I could!"

Long arms have a whole different set of rules!

"My specific question is...

1. I live in WASHINGTON and would like to sell a handgun to a friend of mines in CALIFORNIA. Is this legal?
YES, if you follow the law, and the gun is CA legal.

2. Can we just meet in OREGON and make the sale face to face?
NO!!!

3. Or do we have to go through an FFL dealer/person?
Yes, you do.

California is a bit more complicated than most states.
If the gun is LESS than 50 years old, it must be on the CA DOJ "Approved List" to even be imported into CA.
You have to check the list for the SPECIFIC model to see if it can be imported into CA-

Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale - Firearms Division - California Dept. of Justice - Office of the Attorney General

NOTE I said "SPECIFIC" model. The S&W Mod 17-8 IS on the list. The Mod 17-6 is NOT on the list, so I CANNOT send a 17-6 to CA.
EXCEPTION- LEO's CAN receive guns not on the list. If your friend is an LEO, look into this. I am not entirely clear on how and why.
ANY firearm he can legally import into CA MUST go thru an 01 FFL.

C&R guns-
ANY gun more than 50 yrs old is C&R qualified. C&R guns can be imported into CA by a C&R holder.
However, C&R handguns CANNOT be sent directly to the C&R. They MUST be shipped to a regular 01 FFL, and then the C&R picks it up from the dealer. If you live in CA and do not hold a C&R, there is no legal way to import a C&R handgun, except for the LEO exemption.

Do you have a headache yet?
I ship to CA all the time, but all of the above is why many dealers simply won't deal with CA.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

While being illegal, we all know that gun sales between individuals in different states happens all the time.

Examples: One of my neighbors went to visit his brother a few weeks ago in a nearby state. His brother is a deputy sheriff and sold him a Glock. He brought the gun home and is totally happy. Illegal but a done deal.

A cousin of mine lives in GA and another cousin lives in CA. The CA cousin spent a week in GA visiting the other cousin. While there, he bought a gun from an individual that he noticed in a sales paper. Illegal but a common occurance.

Sometimes the law does not follow common sense. There is no way to monitor all transactions. There are "stings" that might catch an occasional person but the fact is there are illegal sales made daily in about every town.

There are over 25,000 gun laws on the books and I bet we each have broken some of those laws.

I do not condone breaking the law and would not suggest anyone break the law but use common sense.

Now I ask the board this: Should you own a gun that your aging father wanted to buy from you. He is a law abiding citizen that lives in another state some 100 miles away. You get to see him a few times a year and you are wanting to sell the gun he wants. Are you going to tell him you cannot or will not sell it to him, while instead may sell it to a stranger that you know nothing about that may be a domestic abuser, a convicted felon or such? Are you going to ship the gun to a FFL in your fathers area so it costs both of you more money? Or do you just sell him the gun the next time you see him?

If it was my Father I'd just give it to him. I think I owe him that much, especially since I'll be getting it back eventually anyway.

Not sure how a gift complicates, or uncomplicates the scenario though.

In ref to Oldman45's post ....

I think that there is sometimes a difference between illegal and wrong

Some things are illegal because it is just plain wrong to do them ... like robbery, murder, rape, theft etc. In our society, they are generally accepted as immoral, wrong and they are also illegal by statute.

Other things are illegal by statute, but not necessarily wrong - many gun laws are like this. When you look at the cornucopia of laws, opinion letters, regulations and other rules that have been generated by the GCA, the AWB and all the States, it is difficult to follow. Throw NFA in there and some things seem contradictory and others are very muddled.

I believe it is that way by design. They can deem one action illegal, and another legal - even when they seemed to be the same action.

I also don't condone breaking the law ... but the key is knowing what the law actually says, and that is not always easy

As mentioned above, there are stings for illegal sales. I was at a Ga. gunshow last year, and had a couple firearms I wanted to sell. A fellow dressed like a gangbanger was hanging around the front door, and acted like he wanted to buy everything that looked like a gun.

Something wasn't right with the whole picture, so I declined to talk to him and went about my business.

I saw the individual 1 week later on the local news, he was a BATFE agent. I can only imagine how my "sale" to him would have gone down.

Given the amount of confusion, and the frequent requests from new members about what to do and how to do it, I think I will contact BATFE and NRA and see if I cannot get a concise and accurate summary written in plain English of what the law requires. If I am successful, I will post it here. I know, "lots of luck, buddy."


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

You hit the nail on the head!!!!!!!!!!!
"Wrong" is something you should just not do.
"Illegal" is a sick bird.

Run awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.................................

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Forum consigliere

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

There it is, plain English.

Thank you OKFC05. This saves me a lot of work.


Bullseye

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Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Actually I think anyone can buy a long gun in another state. I have bought shotguns in TX from dealers there and brought the gun home. Only handguns cannot be bought out of state and brought home.

Then I can kill a person just as quick and from a longer range with a rifle than with a handgun

Actually, that is covered in my post above:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

All sales across a state line require some FFL involvement to be legal.

Illegal on the part of the buyer, certainly, but not illegal on the part of the seller unless he or she knew or had reason to believe that the buyer was from out of state. When I sell a gun to someone I don't know, I ask if they are from Georgia. I don't ask if they are a felon, or otherwise prohibited. The law doesn't even require me to ask about residency. Only if I know, or have reason to believe that a person is prohibited, am I breaking the law.

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law

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Georgia On My Mind

As has been said before here and as the text posted by OKFCO points out;

If the OP were to bring his gun here to FL we could go see my FFL guy, he would accept the pistol from the OP and transfer it to me.
The reverse is not true; my FFL may not transfer a pistol to the OP who is not a FL resident.

In CA however, the gun would have to be acceptable for import or the FFL could not receive it or transfer it.

We have an interesting problem in FL in determining just who is a resident. Face to face sales are allowed in FL, many people have FL tags and a FL driver’s license, who may not be residents, and at least their home state claims them and wants to collect taxes from them. It seems to depend upon whether they spend 183 days a year here or there.

We seem to have quite a number of “residents” who vote both here and in NY or NJ.

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Ipsis Rebus Dictantitbus

AMEN to that. California's laws are designed to get around the 2nd Ammend. and harass citizens, so it's almost a moral obligation to ignore then when ever possible.

I now live in a free state, and my practice is that I only buy or sell a firearm to a private citizen if he will show me his Concealed Weapons Permit.

If you live in a free state, then why are you placing more restrictions on potential buyers (as well as yourself) than the law requires? Not everyone who buys and collects guns has a Concealed Weapons Permit. If I am buying, I will offer to show a drivers license, but only for ID, not for the seller to take down the information. The law doesn't require that, but I'll go that far.

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law

There is no burden on the seller to try to ascertain if the buyer is prohibited.

Did you really mean to say you only buy from someone who holds a Concealed Carry Permit?

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Georgia On My Mind

If it's illegal, don't do it.

Or change the law so it becomes legal- but this is a bit more difficult.

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Lost it all in a boat accident

Well in my humble opinion with freedom comes responsibility, and I have a responsibility to not be arming people that the State of Idaho would not. Getting a permit here is not difficult or expensive, so I don't see a reason to not have one. I cannot look at a person and tell if they are the most saintly character that ever walked on the planet or if they just escaped from the slammer, like those clowns in Arizona. I feel I do have a burden (responsibilty) to make as sure as possible someone is legit. Maybe you have the ability to tell on sight but I do not. Now as to buying one, if there was a situation like is in the section of the forum where a very lucky person picked up two carbines, I would do that too, it's a judgement call and little old ladies from Pasadena are OK. But I have no desire to own a hot gun. Having a permit does not mean you can't be a bad guy, but it is a clue. Since I live in a free state I'm free to make my own rules.

I don't know why a collector would not have a permit, it makes things easier in a number of ways. No NIC (or whatever it is) check, keep it concealed in your car, etc.

Hey Andy, why don't you trot out to California and change those gun laws, let me know how it comes out. In the meantime there is a thing called the Constitution.

there are exemptions i believe for inheritances and family transfers for off roster guns coming in to PRK. the situation you describe, unless hes family or your both residents of the state you cant do it unless the gun is on the currently approved roster or C&R

not only is it a hassle for dealers selling into the, most wont. most dealers in state wont deal with the hassle. my last 10 or so purchases have been PPT. either guys i met online and we met at a FFL to do a legal transfer or to buy a C&R long gun. mostly to saveo n sales tax ~10% and used inventory (noting new production really turns my crank) in most area stores is lacking, as in used pre lock S&Ws, colt 1911s and ruger SA are tough to find at all let alone used at a good price

I've seen a guy go to another State...simply set up a table at a Show and sell rifles/shotguns all day long.

Talking about a MT resident, non FFL holder...who hits the Washington,Wyoming and the Reno, NV show once a year or so. He has never to my knowledge even been challenged by anyone regarding a license.

In NV He will not sell to anyone from California though...unless it's through a FFL.

I'm waiting for him to get busted one of these days. I visit him at the Shows but NEVER leave anything at his table, watch the table for him, etc.

FN in MT