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  #51  
Old 10-24-2010, 10:31 AM
Maggie Drawers Maggie Drawers is offline
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Thank you, Sir!
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  #52  
Old 10-24-2010, 05:18 PM
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This is the true explanation of how the Revolutionary War was fought. Also an interesting insight into part of a later conflict.

YouTube - Bill Cosby - Toss Of The Coin
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  #53  
Old 10-25-2010, 12:21 AM
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Maggie Drawers; My father, infantryman in WWI and NYNG between the wars, taught it to me. It was Maggie's drawers, then.
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  #54  
Old 10-25-2010, 05:27 AM
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Maggie Drawers; My father, infantryman in WWI and NYNG between the wars, taught it to me. It was Maggie's drawers, then.
Cyrano,

It's sad to me, and probably would be to your dad also, that today's infantryman doesn't know the meaning of "Maggie's Drawers". But then, I realized that the longarm that most of them are issued isn't effective much beyond normal hailing distance so there is little need for a communication between the target pit and the firing line. And to make matters worse, little emphasis is put on a "miss". After all, there is a magazine full to follow up with.

Bob
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  #55  
Old 10-25-2010, 07:38 AM
Maggie Drawers Maggie Drawers is offline
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I agree. Marksmanship is a thing of the past. A friend in the Air Force told me that today's airmen are not taught to adjust the sight - if they need to shoot at a bit further distance they just hold over a tad. Hmmmm........sounds a bit like the fixed sights on my trusty flintlock. I wonder if they sight in using a file, too.
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  #56  
Old 10-25-2010, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie Drawers View Post
I agree. Marksmanship is a thing of the past. A friend in the Air Force told me that today's airmen are not taught to adjust the sight - if they need to shoot at a bit further distance they just hold over a tad. Hmmmm........sounds a bit like the fixed sights on my trusty flintlock. I wonder if they sight in using a file, too.



Had a chance to read your most recent addition to the story of the rifleman. It was a great treat. Well done and a well researched read....

Sometimes the truth is much more interesting than the stories we were taught in school. When I started down the path of independant research into our nations Colonial Era, and the subsequent founding of our Country ~ it was dumbfounding....

Evidently "Spin" is not a modern thing....
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  #57  
Old 10-25-2010, 04:29 PM
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Ha! I've been using it for years and you're the first person to acknowledge understanding the term.
Sir, I first heard the term "Maggie's drawers" in boot camp in 1984, and it was used in the Corps into the early '90s, though the more common term was "disked you a miss." The Marine Corps being what it is, I'd bet that both terms are still in common use.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.
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  #58  
Old 10-25-2010, 05:47 PM
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Just as a WAG, I'd bet that with the "neutering" of the military, the term "Maggie's Drawers" is no longer PC.

Bob
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  #59  
Old 10-26-2010, 08:48 PM
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datsun40146,

I found "Sharpshooting in the Civil War" (by Maj. John L. Plaster) in the NRA Library today. I know it is the wrong time frame, but it might have some "lessons learned" from the Revolutionary War era.

Hope this might be of some help.

todd
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  #60  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:48 AM
Maggie Drawers Maggie Drawers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizamo View Post


Had a chance to read your most recent addition to the story of the rifleman. It was a great treat. Well done and a well researched read....

Sometimes the truth is much more interesting than the stories we were taught in school. When I started down the path of independant research into our nations Colonial Era, and the subsequent founding of our Country ~ it was dumbfounding....

Evidently "Spin" is not a modern thing....
Gizamo - please excuse my long absence and way overdue thanks for your comments regarding my Tim Murphy article in Journal of Military History. I assure you it is much appreciated.
I write for Patriots of the American Revolution magazine. In my research I find some of the most incredible "facts" parrotted endlessly by people with excellent reputations. I've gotten very leary of authors who cite secondary sources. Hunt down the origins of the "facts" and sometimes, not always, it is truly eye-opening; and discouraging. But, it's the primary resources where the fun and the truth is found.
Thanks again for your comments. It is a real pleasure to hear from a reader.
Hugh
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  #61  
Old 10-31-2011, 06:33 PM
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Hugh,

Old thread...but a good one....

Been busy buying out a collection of primary documents, from here in Maine. 1700's probate records, etc.. in there is one of the rarest accounts of Lovell's War. Sixty copies extant, all in major collections.

So, still focused on the 4th Indian War...
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  #62  
Old 10-31-2011, 06:50 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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Only time I encountered Maggie's Drawers was at a rifle range in Germany. In BCT we learned to shoot and zero our M-14s on the 1000 inch range, then fired at the pop ups.
I agree in today's army-since the 1960s in fact-marksmanship is denigrated. The M-16 is our version of the Soviet PPSh M1-1941 and PPS M-1943-pray and spray.

Last edited by BLACKHAWKNJ; 10-31-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #63  
Old 11-01-2011, 01:02 AM
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It's been a while, but we zeroed the M 16 at 25 yds. The trajectory was flat enough that we didn't need any sight adjustment out to 300 yds, and as you know, in several wars the times anyone engaged a target at greater than 300 yds was effectively nil.
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  #64  
Old 11-01-2011, 11:41 AM
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The M-16 is our version of the Soviet PPSh M1-1941 and PPS M-1943-pray and spray.
Mind telling me how you "spray and pray" with a weapon that is limited to 3 round bursts? I keep hearing how much marksmanship has declined in today's military - it is simply not true. The shooters of today are trained the same way they have always been trained, and that is with emphasis on making each shot count. There is no "spray and pray" course of fire with the M-16 or it's M-4 counterpart. You get 40 rounds for 40 targets. There is no "next magazine". Maybe you should actually visit a range instead of recycling urban myths. My soldiers today are just as good, if not better, at engaging the enemy as they were in the 1960s.

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  #65  
Old 11-01-2011, 12:27 PM
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My soldiers today are just as good, if not better, at engaging the enemy as they were in the 1960s.

They are probably better today than we were. Optic sights VS iron sights... today's optics are hard to beat.
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  #66  
Old 11-01-2011, 05:20 PM
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"Maggie Drawers: I wonder how many besides you and I know what that means?"

Recognized it right off, just took me a while to get to the end of the thread.

I first heard that term in the summer of 1971 while learning the M14 in the USMC.
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  #67  
Old 11-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Maggie Drawers Maggie Drawers is offline
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Semperfi71,
I've been using it for years on various forums. Sometimes in our club matches I've used it, too. I'm astounded at how many don't know/never heard of it. Some give me a VERY funny look!
Seem that history, like fame, is fleeting.
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  #68  
Old 11-01-2011, 06:19 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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The three round burst feature was adopted because in Vietnam-and other conflicts-it was found troops issued selective fire weapons kept them set on full auto as a matter of course. Plus the close ranges, heavy foliage and jungle cover, and frequent night actions in Vietnam made aimed fire rather ineffective. And there is a difference between what recruits in Basic do under the stern and watchful eye of their DI as opposed to a combat situation where the action comes fast and furious-and unexpected
and everyone is hollering and cussing, the officers are trying to determine where the threat is coming from, the NCOs are trying to get their men off the ground to return fire, etc.
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  #69  
Old 11-01-2011, 09:01 PM
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get the norfork drill book it is what they trained to before the rev war and the militia used it during the war.
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  #70  
Old 11-01-2011, 09:41 PM
Maggie Drawers Maggie Drawers is offline
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get the norfork drill book it is what they trained to before the rev war and the militia used it during the war.
I agree! The old drill books of the F&I War and Rev War are really something. Those guys didn't do much shooting. It was moving masses of men - the "level" rather than "aim". Send enough lead toward the enemy and you gotta hit something. It's good reading.
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  #71  
Old 11-02-2011, 12:17 AM
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Gadzooks!!! Did you see the old guy shooting the Ferguson? 7 shots in 1 minute. That could have been bad.
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  #72  
Old 11-02-2011, 12:20 AM
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"Maggie Drawers: I wonder how many besides you and I know what that means?"
I would think almost everyone who shot at those exclusive rifle ranges would know.
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  #73  
Old 11-02-2011, 12:34 AM
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The 1992 movie of "Last of the Mohicans" shows the British using the Norfolk Drill. Baron von Steuben's drill formed the troops into two ranks.
That allowed them to form a longer battle line and overlap the enemy's flanks.
Von Steuben not only got the Main Army properly drilled, but he also made the drill uniform. Before then the Continental Army used at least 3 different drill manuals, plus a lot of homegrown "tactics". That often led to confusion in combat.
In 1997 I did the Battle of Monouth Reenactment as an infantryman. After 12 shots-blanks-my Charleville became to hot to handle.

Last edited by BLACKHAWKNJ; 11-02-2011 at 12:37 AM.
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