Folks, a friend of mine from the "breakfast club" needs your help in identifying and establishing a value for the nickeled 4-3/4-inch Single Action Army shown in the photos below. It will chamber a .44-40 round without difficulty.

The only markings on the gun are on the left side of the barrel, and read "Colt Frontier Six Shooter." Other than that, there are no markings anywhere, including the serial number, including under the grips. If you look at the loading gate in the last photo some pitting under the nickel is apparent. My guess is that the finish on this revolver was in rough shape at some point in its past, and was sent off for refinishing at which point it was heavily polished to remove the pitting, and then plated. But, I am not a Single Action Army expert, so I am reluctant to hazard a guess as to its provenance or value.

The gun is tight mechanically. No problems with lock-up or excess play in the cylinder. There is a turn line on the cylinder. You can see a few specks on the top strap and on the ejector rod housing where the nickel has flaked off, but overall the finish looks pretty good.












My friend received this revolver from a widow woman who, after her husband passed away, paid him for some work on her home with several guns. He has no attachment to the gun, and would like to realize some cash. I'm hopeful that you guys will be able to share some information about this gun and its value.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Since its refinished I'm guessing its worth $800-$1000.

Show a pic of that barrel marking.
It looks like a Colt.
Obviously, it was heavily buffed when nickeled (looks like chrome...).
The missing number is a PROBLEM......

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Appearance is of a pre-1896 Colt that has been inexpertly nickel or chrome plated and Jay Scott fake stag grips applied. The barrel may have been sawn off.

If the serial number was obliterated in the Bubbachrome process, it is not legal. If there is a faint number remaining - I THINK there is something on the flat ahead of the trigger guard - you are ok.

Farmer17, thanks for your estimate.

Lee, That's what I thought. What is the procedure, if any, for making the gun kosher?

And do you, as a professional, have an estimate of the market value? Any idea how old, at least which generation? I know nothing about Single Action Army's, other than I want one picked up off the battlefield after the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

My friend, among other things, recently amputated his right thumb in an accident. The surgeons were able to reattach it, but it sure has slowed him down and he is used to working with his hands for a living. I'd like to help him out if I can, and have refused his kind offer to split any proceeds from a sale.

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Yes, there is something faint in that location. I will ask my friend to bring the revolver back over and I will make a close-up photograph of that area to see if we cannot tease out whatever is there.

Thank you Jim.

Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

If it's actually a Colt, it's pre-1896 (black powder frame). That style barrel roll mark was used from 1889 to the late teens. It looks like there's a trace of a serial number on the frame.

__________________
"I also cook."

"black powder frame" via the cylinder pin screw; no frame markings?

At some point prior to 1898 the Colt was added as trademark, I don't recall just when, prior to the 1890s IIRC.

No numbers on the frame just ahead of the front trigger guard screw is not a good thing;

hope there's a Colt expert out there to ID; I'd be suspicious as to maker as well as era.

I've seen a few similar stories that were presented to me as being "Italian made in mid-50s".

I've never actually seen any buffing job that took out ALL the stamp marks.


And if there is NO serial number at all....there's a larger issue needing attention....

__________________
Dum vivimus Vivamas

Somebody got a new buffer for Christmas,,

With the cylinder pin held in with a screw instead of the cross pin,,it should be an antique IIRC if the gun is first generation. The change occured around 1896. Wether that absolves the missing serial number issue or not,,I do not know.

The other thing is that the old style frames were made once again in the 90's or early 2000's on special runs.
Those guns should have the guns serial number stamped on the side of the grip strap and trigger guard under the grips IIRC.
Not that it would make a missing frame number any less of a problem.

A frame and gate assembly number if present would help ID the gun as a Colt I guess. Though it wouldn't help with coming up with the guns serial number.

'Colt Frontier Six Shooter' was the barrel address that was used to ID a gun chambered for 44-40.

If no number, it has no value.
I would not buy it, sell it, or possess it.
If the number can be distinguished, I think Farmer hit it right- 800-1000.

Being a black powder frame, it should be a 3 number gun- serial number on frame, trigger guard just below the frame number, and on the bottom strap of gripframe.

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

You might try the Coltforum dot com for the Colt experts. Don't expect anything positive.

If the revolver is chrome plated, then you are also dealing with Hydrogen Embrittlement. It is almost certain that the revolver is an antique designed for low pressure black powder loads. With higher pressure smokeless powder loads, you run the risk of having the cylinder fail and taking part of the rest of the revolver with it.

The serial numbers have been removed, but that isn't quite as bad as you would think. The revolver is an antique, so Federal law exempts antiques. If the plating is removed, it could be possible to restore the serial number, and then have the parts renumbered.

I appreciate this, but there seems to be a difference of opinion here. To alleviate my friend's anxiety, can you direct me to a section of the law or applicable regulations that explicitly states that firearms produced prior to January 1, 1899 do not necessarily have to have a serial number? I appreciate your advice.

Thanks,


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

There isn't one. With no Maker's mark and no serial number, how does one PROVE it is an antique?
Once any item has worn a serial number, it cannot legally be removed, I don't believe.
Try pawning a Milwaukee drill with the data plate removed.....

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee, prudence dictates that I take your position on this. I have been reading all afternoon, and cannot find anything in the applicable law or regulations that exempts pre-1899 antiques from the serial number requirement. I have also been reading a lot on serial number forensics, and given the fact that something is there where at least one of the serial numbers should be (on the flat part of the frame in front of the trigger guard) it is my assessment that the original serial number could be determined by stripping off the plating and then subjecting that portion of the gun to the acid etch procedure described by the Iowa State Police's firearms forensic division. The hang-up, of course, is that this is probably expensive, and my friend would not be looking to sell this revolver if he had the money to do that. I think I am going to take the direct approach and try to talk to someone at BATFE tomorrow. I just hope the answer is not, "It's illegal. Tell us where to pick it up." Surely, there must be a legal way of permitting the owner the opportunity to comply with the law by making an honest attempt to have the serial number restored. One reference I saw said it would be kosher to have Colt assign a serial number to the gun. Perhaps I should call them and ask them about this situation. Surely, this is not the first time a situation like this has arisen. I would hate to see an antique SAA destroyed because some idiot with a buffing wheel got overly enthusiastic.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Any Colt SAA that is not rusted into a solid lump is worth $750 - 1000.

As far as legal issues go. There is a date (no, I don't know when) before which guns were not required to have ser.#'s. I would write a letter (paper type) to the ATF asking for advice. Despite what alot of people think, I've found they are most often willing to help you, as long as you're trying to comply with the law.

I have heard stories of "stolen parts" guns being assembled by someone who had access to the manufacturing of handgun parts. As I remember, parts were acquired before any serial numbering and taken out the back door. When all the parts required for a particular model those parts were assembled. This very well could be a "stolen parts" gun that was never serial numbered. ........... Big Cholla

What would happen in this case?Would it depend on the vintage?

__________________
Dum vivo cano

You can ask the BATFE to attempt to raise the serial number, but their doing so may ruin the finish, as I found out. Have your friend explain to them how he got the gun, and they will, more than likely, assign a serial number to the gun, which then has to be taken to a 'smith to have the number stamped into the frame.

I did that for a co-workers father who had acquired a Colt SAA many years ago, that had the serial number filed off of the frame. It was a 2nd Generation too and was in very nice condition until the BATFE tried to raise the number with chemicals, which ruined the bluing.
The gun was assigned a new number and I took it to a gunsmith who then stamped that number into the frame, and all was well.

Your friend has a pig in a poke. It is irrelevant now, but I believe the BP frame Frontier Six Shooters had an acid etched logo on the barrel which became roll marked on later guns. These guns were not caliber marked as the FSS was only made in 44-40. It is common knowledge that Colt SAA's were serial numbered so the 68 GCA does not apply. The lack of numbers makes the gun an illegal paperweight IMHO.

This is really helpful. The finish that is on the gun is clearly not original, so that's not a big loss. Can you give me someone specific to contact at BATFE to contact regarding this?

You know, the sad thing is that my friend needs money so bad he might take a couple of hundred for it and sell it to me. This really is not what I am after, but if this gun is really a pre-1899 blackpowder SAA, I just might do it. Invest a few hundred and have a real cowboy gun.

Thanks again for the problem-solving.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I called the BATFE office in Cleveland, OH, and an agent came to my workplace to look at the gun. Just look up the local ATF office in your area and give them a call.

Bullseye,
I know your buddy at the breakfast club isn't a thief, and he isn't trying to hide the firearm from the original owner, or the government. I looked at Virginia law, and I am certain this is the kinda thing "The Russian" would enjoy making a name for himself with (you know what I am talking about)
I know you know and trust your Sheriff. Take it to him. Let him hang on to it, call around and see what he can do for you.
The folks here have given you good advice. I think getting that thing outta your possession, or your friends possession, before someone around town starts talkin' about it is a good idea.
PM me if you have any questions.

What is the availability of ammo and has it been shot? Besides the serial number is would be good to know if it works. That info would help in getting it sold. Off topic, how did your friend get his thumb cut off? Could be a valuable safety lesson for us.

Folks, I have relayed your information and suggestions to my friend. He is considering whether to take it to BATFE directly and ask them to attempt to recapture the serial number, as suggested by bgrafsr, or, as sheriffoconee has recommended, to take it to our local Sheriff, explain the situation, and ask him for his assistance in getting this piece of history into compliance with the law and regulations. He was willing to sell it for $500, by the way. Not any longer. He has asked me to thank all the members who shared information and ideas. Once again, this Forum has proven itself to be an invaluable source of good information. I wouldn't dream of consulting the board that caters to collectors of off-brand revolvers.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

Ah, you mean hartford pony logo and loopy eagles?

__________________
Lost it all in a boat accident

Exactamento, Andy.


Bullseye

__________________
Five screws and 3-1/2 inches.

I see 3 numbers on the flat near the trigger guard, looks like 523 .

With a little work, this should be easily verified and the number properly reapplied by a gunsmith.

Weighing in one more time on this very interesting old pistol; I believe after a little research there is a good possibility that this is in fact a 'parts is parts' handgun put together in an era that no serial number was a no-never-mind. The frame is blackpowder pre 1896. The barrel is roll stamped and probably of later vintage. The hammer crosshatching seems to be of a later vintage also as does the ejector rod finger lever. The buffing was inexpert and very heavy handed so it was not a Colt Factory rebuild. Not a collector by any means. The no serial number can be taken care of by a visit with the BATF and an explanation of 'bad' refinishing. A new serial number of the owner's choice would be assigned and with the proper paperwork the pistol becomes totally legal. I worked in a custom gunshop in a time when all FN Mauser actions came in with no serial number. We just assigned a number of the owner's choice and filled out the paper work with that serial number before the new custom rifle left the shop. I remember one rifle went specifically to a then BATF agent. I still have such a rifle in my possession that is serial numbered with my initials and the year of assembly. ............ Big Cholla