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Old 10-17-2010, 04:26 AM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Default Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions!

YouTube - SAS pistol training


View this video, featuring British SAS troops training with the SIG-Sauer P-228 9mm pistol. (Called M-11 in limited issue with US forces, like Naval investigators and pilots.) Some short H-K MP-5 SMG action at the last.

Note that the instructor says to load with TEN round magazines. Don't P-228 mags usually carry at least 13 rounds? More?

Also, he says that the bullet will drop between 10-15-20 meters. Really? Enough to throw one off of a man-sized target? The head of that target, more than very little?

What do others here think? Note that the soldiers here are in fact very proficient with their handguns. How many of you can honestly say that you are as good? I was, but am getting rusty. Guess I need to hit the range more...

And, how far out would you take a head shot on a terrorist, unless you could have a few seconds to refine your aim? These days, I'm not too happy doing it much beyond 20 feet. Beyond that, center mass is more likely to give good results in a hurry. Remember, these guys shoot a lot at government expense or they wouldn't be so keen on taking head shots!

T-Star
Note that some of the soldiers are wearng facial disguises. Given their duties, they cannot otherwise appear in public videos.

Last edited by Texas Star; 10-17-2010 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 10-17-2010, 09:37 AM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions! Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions! Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions! Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions! Odd Issues in SAS Video. Questions!  
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The SAS used to load their BHP mags with 12 rds instead of 13, believing that this made them work better. Maybe this idea got institutionalized. Or maybe they bought spare mags from ProMag - the MoD has been cash strapped lately.

Sig mags work fine fully loaded and can stay loaded just about forever.

The SAS seem to do some odd things by American standards in that video, such as using the trigger finger of the support hand to curl around the trigger guard. They also didn't use the sights of their MP5Ks, nor any sort of optic or laser.

Thanks to a lack of a gun culture, they're probably about 20 years behind the times. Of course the handlebar mustache was a nice touch.

Were those guys active duty or were they retired/former service now working as PMCs? Some looked a little chunky to pass so much as a Navy PRT, let alone an SAS type program of work out.

The U.S. standard, in so far as their is one, is to be able to do a headshot at 25meters. Thus the institutional choice for a long time was a somewhat tinkered with 1911.

Army CID, general officers, and others also have M11s.

Edit to add, remember also that there are in efffect "two" types of SAS. There is the famous regular service sort, and then there is the "Territorial Army" sort, which is what Bear Grylls was. TA is more like the American National Guard.

Last edited by GatorFarmer; 10-17-2010 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 10-17-2010, 10:03 AM
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Dragonfly Dragonfly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
Also, he says that the bullet will drop between 10-15-20 meters. Really? Enough to throw one off of a man-sized target? The head of that target, more than very little?
Maybe if you were using a precision rifle that'd be significant, but only very little with a handgun. I dusted off the high school physics part of my brain and came up with this:

Distance dropped = 1/2 * acceleration * time squared

So, lets assume an average velocity for the bullet's flight of 300m/s (about 1000 ft/s). That means the time of flight is the distance to the target divided by the velocity, or 20/300, which equals 0.067 seconds.

And, acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/second^2 (about 32 ft/s^2), so that means the vertical distance dropped is: 1/2 * 9.81 * 0.067 squared, which equals 0.022m, or 2.2cm, or just a little less than an inch drop between 0 and 20m (about 22 yards) if I've done everything right.

You'd have to be a very good pistol shot for that to make a difference, but if anyone is I'd say the SAS certainly would be.
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Old 10-17-2010, 10:35 AM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFarmer View Post
The SAS used to load their BHP mags with 12 rds instead of 13, believing that this made them work better. Maybe this idea got institutionalized. Or maybe they bought spare mags from ProMag - the MoD has been cash strapped lately.

Sig mags work fine fully loaded and can stay loaded just about forever.

The SAS seem to do some odd things by American standards in that video, such as using the trigger finger of the support hand to curl around the trigger guard. They also didn't use the sights of their MP5Ks, nor any sort of optic or laser.

Thanks to a lack of a gun culture, they're probably about 20 years behind the times. Of course the handlebar mustache was a nice touch.

Were those guys active duty or were they retired/former service now working as PMCs? Some looked a little chunky to pass so much as a Navy PRT, let alone an SAS type program of work out.

The U.S. standard, in so far as their is one, is to be able to do a headshot at 25meters. Thus the institutional choice for a long time was a somewhat tinkered with 1911.

Army CID, general officers, and others also have M11s.

Edit to add, remember also that there are in efffect "two" types of SAS. There is the famous regular service sort, and then there is the "Territorial Army" sort, which is what Bear Grylls was. TA is more like the American National Guard.

Gator-

I just stumbled across the video. Don't know what level of SAS they are. They did look a bit old.

My son met some regular SAS in Iraq. They often had H-K USP pistols.

Bear Grylls is a showman, but he has guts! I wouldn't dream of trying some of his stunts. Maybe that level of daring is what got his back broken. That he recovered and went on to do what he does is remarkable. But I wish that he'd concentrate more on giving valid survival advice and less on stunts and drama.

Thanks for the added data on who else in the US miitary has the M-11.

T-Star
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Old 10-17-2010, 06:13 PM
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LVSteve LVSteve is offline
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Maybe things there have changed, but I also have issues with that video. A British Army acquaintance was once a close protection type, and he said he was taught instinctive pistol shooting looking over the top of the gun, never really using the sights. To become competent at this took many thousands of rounds of practice which was why they used Sigs. The Browning Hi-Power could not take the extended use.

Instinctive shooting may be taught these days with the compact MP-5, but I know for sure this was not so with the fullsize weapon. In fact, the average squaddie was expected to use the sights even on a Stirling and to only use full auto when absolutely necessary.
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Old 10-17-2010, 07:38 PM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
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A couple of clairifications. One is that he didn't state the bullet would drop 10, 15, or 20 meters, he stated that it would lose energy at longer ranges and the bullet would drop.

As for headshots, I can routinely hit a head sized target with my P239 at 15 yards, at longer distances I would want some type of rest and an optical sight. Give me a reflex sight and a good rest and 50 yards is probably the limit. However, I'll also note what can be done when shooting at paper differs greatly at what can be done in combat. In Combat I would much rather have a rifle.
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Old 10-18-2010, 12:04 PM
Jellybean Jellybean is offline
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A bullet is affected by gravity the instant it leaves the barrel. However, the firearms are made to compensate for this because if they weren't the bullets' flight path would never cross the line of sight. Most handguns are made to shoot POI/POA at 25 yards, so between 10-15-20 meters the bullet shout actually be rising.

The head makes a lousy target for realistic shooting. Many people think that any head shot is an instant kill, or at least an instant stop. This isn't true. Unless the central nervous system is damaged the threat may still keep fighting, even if it's only enough to pull a trigger.

It does appear as though the Europeans do train somewhat like we Amercians. We assume we are going to be attacked by a two dimensional humanoid, with marked vitals or scoring rings, that will stand perfectly still long enough for us to perform a finely choreographed dance routine right in front of their faces.
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