Very interesting!

Just knowing a bit about Mr. Churchill's later life, one might have assumed he would be very traditional and British in his selection of a sidearm, ie, a Webley Revolver.

But in the Boer War, he chose a Mauser M1896(?) Broom Handle, a cutting edge handgun of the day to be sure. And then in the Great War, an M1911. The Colt was certainly not a battle-tested war veteran at the time he bought one. He must have kept up with the latest advances in pistols, at least as a young man.

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You're shy a few manners.

PICTURES!!!!

Quiet Man,

We need PICTURES!!!!!!!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

I am generally a quiet man, however I am not a seasoned photographer. As I have benefited from the information shared on this thread I am happy to try and post photos of a 1911 Colt that has seen better conditioned days. This is the shape I discovered it in. As this is a forum on Smith and Wesson's I have included a favorite from that company as well. I have tried to include a close up of the crown V proof mark on the Colt above the Colt horse emblem.

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My father said he was issued a "Colt automatic". He was an Army aviation officer during WWl. He was offically a calvary officr, and as such wore riding boots with spurs with his uniform. The spurs were supposed to be removed prior to entering the cockpit. He mentioned that this rule was frequently overlooked, often with disasterous results.

QM-I wouldn't refurbish that gun, too much history, just keep it and enjoy it. Just my $.02.

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

The WW1 Italian ace Francesco Baracca [34 kills] was shot down and pinned in the wreckage of his plane for two days. When he was finally found he had a single bullet hole in the head and a pistol in his hand.It appeared he had ended his own life.There is a small dusty museum in his home town of Lugo/Emelia Romanga, Italy where his airplane and the pistol used are [were] on display. I think it was either a Mauser or Beretta auto. I suspect most WW1 era pilots carried side arms with that thought in mind. Regards, Bart

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H.E;Bart

How do we know about Lt. Luke's final heroism? Did the Germans finally describe it to US authorities?

T-Star

Here for your viewing pleasure are photos of my WWI British-proofed .45ACP Colt Government Model pistol C 13731 which was 1 of 300 shipped to the London Armoury Company on November 18 1914. The London commercial proof and view marks (Crown/intertwined GP and Crown/V) are visible on the barrel and on the left side slide just above the Rampant Colt and frame below the thumb safety. The accompanying US Model 1912 holster is marked 1st LT G C Wilkins. The owner of this pistol was 1st Lt George Carl Wilkins, a 1918 Harvard Graduate. He entered Officers' Training Camp at Plattsburg NY in May 1917; commissioned 1st Lt Infantry August 15; assigned to 301st Machine Gun Battalion, 76th Division and sailed for France July 8, 1918. He was transferred to the 146th Machine Gun Battalion, 41st Division on November 9 1918 and returned to the U.S. on February 25, 1919. He transferred to the 153rd Depot Brigade, Camp Dix on 27 February and was discharged on 25 May 1919.

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a few more photos for detail to show London proof marks on barrel and 1912 Cavalry Model holster with name.

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Here for your viewing pleasure is my Webley-Scott .455 Model 1913 MK1 N Navy pistol serial number 3800 which was accepted into service in 1914. I found on-line an interesting article "The .455 Webley & Scott Pistol" (American Rifleman 1964) which has a chart which details both Government Contracts and Private sales deliveries by month/year/serial number. This pistol (serial number 3800) was 1 of 1919 (serial numbers 3691-5609) delivered to the Royal Navy in December 1914. It served through most of WWI. Additional photos show close-ups of 1914 military acceptance and inspection marks. Here's a link to photo of the Webley-Scott MK1-N pistol in service. Commander Samson is seen with this model pistol in hand. Gallipoli Peninsula, Turkey. 1915. The intrepid Commander C R Samson, standing beside a single seat Nieuport 10 aircraft with pistol in his hand about to start on one of his little excursions over the Turkish lines. Commander Samson commanded No. 3 Squadron, Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) Wing, based on Tenedos Island, which took part in the operations at the Dardanelles.http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/G00523/

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A few more photos to show pistol details (broad arrow military property mark on grip and 1914 acceptance/inspection marks) and 7-pack of .455 Webley automatic ammo dated January 30 1919.

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A handgun that could have been used in WWI, and that I never see mentioned here, is the Colt M1909 revolver in .45 Colt caliber. This was the last revolver adopted by the US Army before adoption of the M1911. I have one of thse seldom seen revolvers, and it is just a New Service with the model marked on the butt. Does anyone know how many of these revolvers were purchased by the Army?

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Tom
1560

I can't let this go without a quick note on 'pusher props'. You may recall the Wright brothers first flight was in an airplane with a prop mounted behind the pilot. For weight and balance purposes, that was thought to be a good design. Over the next few years, as more airplanes either crashed or made hard landings, pilots insisted on the change as the structure was so flimsy that a structural failure on landing often resulted in a spinning propeller killing the pilot. A prop out in front was nearly always stopped completely on initial ground contact.

You've got to realize, Winston Churchill was half American - from his mother.

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Dave Frost

Odd this thread came back up. I recently saw a show on History or Military channel about early aviation. During WWI , planes were originally used to observe troop movement and artillery. Since the planes did not have mounted machine guns yet , the pilots would indeed try to shoot each other with handguns. That was how air combat started.

What an amazing history lesson! The S&W Forum is, far and away, the finest corner of the World Wide Web. I wish I had discovered it years ago! Damn, I love this place.

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Why, I aughta.....

This is a great thread. Here is a Colt New Service in .455 that was shipped to England in March of 1916. It was part of an order of 1000 guns. Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips. It is a little rare to find one still chambered in .455. I have no idea of the history of this gun other than the shipping info from the factory letter. I have to assume, based on its condition, that it was not used in combat. It's very possible that it shipped to England and then sat in storage until it was returned to the US at some point. It just seems to have too much finish for a gun that was carried a lot.

I do not have a clue about WW1 aviator side arms. However, I do recall reading the Eddie Rickenbacker (1890-1973) autobiography in which he said that he had never fired a gun before he began his pilot training. Thought this was interesting.

Having reread this post, it seems that US Navy and US Marine pilots were overlooked, even by this old jarhead.

Lots of Americans were in the air over France.

"Most of these guns have been converted to use 45 ACP in half moon clips."

Most of the .455 revolvers, both Colt and S&W, that I have seen were rechambered to .45 Colt, though I have seen some rechambered to .45 ACP/.45 AutoRim, including a Triple Lock that I should have bought for $135.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Your New Service is much nicer than mine. The exterior has some deep pitting and has been reblued. I was gonna rechamber it for .45 Long Colt. Luckily , I came across a few boxes of .455 Eley (Mk.I) aka .455 Colt ammo (and a few boxes of .455 Webley Mk.II) at a flea market.




Do you know the ser.no. range of the 1000 to which you refer?

Never a good plan to strafe the guys you may have to soon surrender too!

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Old paratrooper in NC

Yes he did, of course posthumously. He was also posthumously promoted to 1st Lieutenant. His statue stands prominently on the grounds of the Arizona State Capitol building in Phoenix. Arizona was very proud of the hot-headed Frank Luke Jr., who was a fighter, a real maverick and marched to his own drummer as a pilot. Luke Air Force Base, west of Phoenix, is named for him, and a local car dealer here, surnamed Luke, is a relative.

He was known as "the balloon buster." He took down quite a number of German observation balloons - a very dangerous pastime as they were heavily defended by antiaircraft fire. Luke was only 21 when he was shot in flight. A single machine gun bullet fired from above him on a hilltop wounded him severely, and he was forced to land. Exiting from his plane, his only weapon was believed to have been a 1911 pistol. He was shot to death by ground fire and given a hasty grave by the Germans. His body was later transferred to the Meuse-Argonne cemetery.

Eddie Rickenbacker, the only American ace who had more kills than Luke, said of him: "He was the most daring aviator and greatest fighter pilot of the entire war. His life is one of the brightest glories of our Air Service. He went on a rampage and shot down fourteen enemy aircraft, including ten balloons, in eight days." No one else had done that in so short a time.

John

P.S. note to T-Star: The widely circulated story that Luke died with an empty magazine in his 1911 and that seven dead Germans were found in front of him cannot be verified as fact. I suspect that because he was impetuous and quite a daredevil, he almost certainly took the opportunity to do some shooting with it before he went down. By reports made at that time by the Germans, he was offered the opportunity to surrender, but refused, with predictable results.

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

19,503 of these revolvers were purchased by Army. Of these, 19,153 were sent directly to the Philippines in Manila for use against the Moros. They were desperately needed, as the .38 caliber revolvers then issued were poor stoppers. Few ever came back to these shores, and probably few to none were ever used in WWI. More probably, the surviving guns saw some action against the Japanese when they invaded the Philippines during WWII. I'm also fortunate enough to own one of these rare guns, shipped in 1910, illustrated below.

John



P.S. These revolvers chambered a special .45 Colt cartridge with a bit wider rim for better extraction. Today's standard .45 Colt cartridges have a bit wider rim than the original rounds, and so work pretty well with normal extraction in this gun.

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Interesting photos. The pits on the Colt look very much like blood pitting - often found on guns used in combat and left neglected for a period of time.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Thanks and a tip of the cap to 1780inn for bringing this thread back to the front page. Also for the beautiful pictures of his historic autoloaders, they are really marvelous. Interesting to see that the ammo for the Webley is clearly marked "Not for Revolvers". I wonder if anyone ever tried moon-clipping them to see if they would fit/fire in an M1917?

I am amazed at the depth of knowledge of the members of this Forum. Thanks to all who have been so generous.

Since we are posting pix of our .455 Colts, here mine is


And here is a another comparing Dominion to Fiocchi, similar to a previous post (I tried to illustrate how the former has large primers the latter small primers):

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You're shy a few manners.

OPOEFC--

You may be interested to know that after S&W started making the Second Model HE 455s for the Brits, the factory found some leftover Triple Lock frames which were numbered in the TL series, above 5000. Thus there are some TL 455s (perhaps 600 or so) that have serial numbers which duplicate the Second Model HE 455s,

I know this because a late friend of mine had his father's revolver. His dad was a US citizen but had served in the Canadian Army in WW1 & I wrote S&W about his gun sometime during the 1970s or 80s. I gave the info to my friend; wish I'd kept a copy of it.

This has been a most interesting thread so far with much historical info.

By the way, Luke AFB near Phoenix, is named in honor of Lt. Luke. Many AFBs are named for dead aviators.

Regarding what pilots used, my long-departed father-in-law who was a WWI pilot had a .45 Auto, according to one of his letters home in which he spoke of it. He never made it to Europe as the war ended first, and he was mustered out in early 1919 and became a coal salesman in New York state. I suspect that many WWI pilots had whatever they could get. Circumstances are sad to relate, but my wife and mother-in-law disposed of a large number of items he brought back from the Army with him, including his flying and other uniforms, and maybe even the gun, without knowing that they were worth anything. All that remains is a picture of him in uniform.

Great topic. working at a vamc from 1983- 1987 I had the privilege to speak with and view actual records of many Vets. the oldest was a Spanish American war vet and OSS officer. back in the early days of aviation pilots were hard to come by and pilots from almost any nation were welcomed to fly for various nations as "mercenaries/volunteers". the ??? escadrille in France to the flying tigers in China. it wouldn't surprise me if US pilots are doing it today. back then when canvas was used over a skeletal frame on planes an ejected round could burn or rip through the canvas, so IMO if intended use was someone other than yourself, a revolver was more likely. plus by all accounts "rules" were a bit more lax and pilots carried whatever they wanted, or more likely whatever they could find and get ammo for. LOL, they even used grenades and hand dropped bombs.

Bit of trivia here. The original Luke Field was on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor. It was originally an AAC field that was later taken over by the navy before WWII.

A 5" Triple Lock Target with a bit of history

I have hesitated in posting this gun on this thread for fear that the members of the SWCA are tired of seeing it. It was the subject of an article in the latest issue (Vol. 47, No.2) of the Smith & Wesson Collector's Association Journal and it was displayed at the recent SWCA Show in Kansas City. At that show it garnered the award for the Most Outstanding Single Gun Display. But for those of you who aren't in the SWCA or haven't seen it, here is a great piece of history that played a roll in both World Wars.

In 1910 a 20 year old young man named Follett Bradley graduated from the United States Naval Academy. Ensign Bradley served two years in the Navy and then resigned his commission. He immediately joined the U. S. Army and accepted a commission as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Field Artillery. He was made a 1st Lieutenant one month later. Apparently, Lt. Bradley was happy with his new Army life because only eight months following joining the Army he ordered a 5" Target Triple Lock revolver (s. n. 7157) from the S&W Factory and had his name and service branch inscribed on the back strap.

Lt. Bradley and a fellow lieutenant named Henry H. "Hap" Arnold learned to fly in a Wright biplane and, less than two months after receiving his Triple Lock, Bradley and Arnold made the first air-to-ground radio communication. Less than a week later the two men made the first artillery adjustment from an airplane. In 1914 Lt. Bradley was assigned to the Ordinance Department, Aviation Section, Signal Corps...the predecessor to the Army Air Force.

Follett Bradley was promoted to Captain in 1917 and two months later he joined the American Expeditionary Forces commanded by General John J. (Black Jack) Pershing. He served in Europe under the Air Commander, "Billy" Mitchell, on matters of armament of airplanes and aerial gunnery. In 1918 Bradley was promoted to Major and took part in the Aisne Defensive, the capture of Vaux, and the Aisne-Marne Offensive in France. He was cited for gallantry and received the Silver Star and French Croix de Guerre with Palms.

After the war, he held several positions as instructor, director, and commanding officer of various artillery and flying groups in the United States and abroad. He attended both the Army War College and the Navy War College and was promoted to Brigadier General in 1940. General Bradley was one of the first senior officers to fly the new B-17 bomber.

Less than three months after Pearl Harbor, Bradley was made a Major General and assigned as the Commanding General of the First Air Force and the Air Force of the Eastern Theater of Operations.

In 1942 President Franklin Roosevelt summoned Maj. Gen. Bradley to the White House for a secret mission that was to have a huge impact on the outcome of World War II. At that time Hitler had initiated Operation Barbarossa against the Soviet Union and the war wasn't going well. The Russians needed assistance and M.G. Bradley was sent to Moscow to meet with Stalin to establish the Alaska-Siberia air route that allowed the US to send essential fighter planes and bombers to our Russian ally.

President Roosevelt wrote to Stalin, in part: "I am sending to the Soviet Union as my representative to conduct these conversations Major General Follett Bradley of the United States Air Corp with the personal rank of Minister. Relying as I do upon the discretion and judgment of General Bradley, I am sending him to you as one of the most able officers of the United States Army and hope that you will find it possible to discuss with him various matters relating to the air route with the same degree of frankness as that which I have charged him to discuss these matters with you."

Stalin responded: "Your message about the assignment of Maj. Gen. F. Bradley as American representative in the Conference has been received by me. As American representative he will receive all the cooperation necessary for the accomplishment of the mission assigned."

Maj. Gen. Bradley received the Distinguished Flying Cross and he served President Roosevelt in other secret missions. Following the war he had a career in private industry and he died in 1952. He was buried with full military honors in Arlington National Cemetery. Here is a brief link to his career on the National Cemetery page.
Follett Bradley, Major General, United States Army

Bob

5" Triple Lock Target


Backstrap Inscription


Note the two notches scribed in the frame in front of the cylinder


Lt. Bradley in front of the Wright Bros. Biplane


Maj. Gen. Bradley as Commander of First Air Force


Gen. Bradley with a model of the B-17


Gen. Bradley receiving the DFC


Bradley tombstone at Arlington Cemetery

This sort of applies. Author Suzanne Arruda www.suzannearruda.com wrote a series of books about a young American woman in Kenya in the 1920's. Her name was Jade and she had been a nurse in WW I. She was engaged to a RAF pilot, who was shot down and KIA. His friend Sam later became her love interest, and she waned Sam to carry his WWI pilot's sidearm.

I was her firearms consultant (credited as such) on the last few books of the series and we mulled over several worthwhile candidates. She chose a Colt M-1917. It was certainly one of the most likely candidates, and Mrs. A. wanted the Colt name, as she had Jade carry a Winchester.
I want to point out that I was NOT her original source for firearms issues. That was a fellow professor, who clearly had very limited knowledge in that area.

We met at a book signing and I had some suggestions and gave her a copy of John Taylor's, "African Rifles and Cartridges." She appeared to find it of considerable interest.

Jade also carried a knife with a five-inch blade in her boot. I suggested that it might be a Marble's Ideal model or a very similar Remington. But she wanted it to be one handmade by a worker on her father's ranch in New Mexico. So I just visualize it as a copy of the ones I wanted. Has a stag handle.

If you like good African-set adventures during the British colonial era there, give Mrs. Arruda's books a try. She uses many of the same sources that I've consulted for African knowledge and also probed into newspaper stories from Nairobi then for added color.

These aren't just romances. They're valid adventure books that men can enjoy, although your wife or daughter will especially like them. My only reservation is that she has a teen Kikuyu boy character who smells too much like a budding Jomo Kenyatta to me, but I am not a PC person. (One probably has to cater to PC issues to get a book set in colonial Africa published today.)

If you read adventure books, look for Sam's Colt M-1917 .45. He used it once to save Jade from being sold in a slave market.

And that is the sum of what I've contributed to WW I pilot sideams. (I did get a M-1917 Colt at age 16.)

If you read the later books, you'll see my name in the credits. Please don't publish it here or elsewhere on the Net. I sometimes say very frank things here that may upset certain editors, ad managers, or gun and knife manufacturers. That might not bode well for my future publishing opportunities.

Sir Winston Churchill, KG, had a Colt Govt. Model .45 auto that has been mentioned here.

He still carried it at times during W II and tried to get his bodyguard to carry one in lieu of the Webley .32 auto that he was issued. The man preferred the lighter gun.

In 1951, Colt presented Churchill with a new Commander .45. "Man at Arms" did a swell article on Churchill's guns some years ago. Did any of you read it?

Colt may have been thanking him for insisting that his newly formed Commando units in 1940 carry...Colt .45 autos. Those early guns in WW II were bought by Britain, not furnished as Lend-Lease as many later ones were.

Neat article about Luke in one of the recent 1911 commemorative gun rags

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

How long does it take you to 'splice the main brace'?

Gallipoli Peninsula, Turkey. 1915. These two photo show Commander C R Samson, standing beside a single seat Nieuport 10 aircraft with a Webley-Scott Navy Model 1913 MK1 pistol in his hand about to start on one of his little excursions over the Turkish lines. Commander Samson commanded No. 3 Squadron, Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) Wing, based on Tenedos Island, which took part in the operations at the Dardanelles.

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A few more photos to show a 7-pack of Royal Navy issue .455 Eley semi-rimmed self-loading Mark I ammo dated January 30, 1919 and loose rounds with 1917 and 1918 head stamps. This 224 grain cupro-nickel jacketed bullet was produced from 1913 thru the early 1940s and was used with these pistols and the WWI British Contract .455 Colt Government Model pistols. Notice the "Not for Revolvers" warning to prevent this ammo from being used with the .455 Webley & Scott WWI-issue revolvers which used the rimmed 220 grain flat nose .455 cartridge 455 Webley Mk IV introduced in 1912 and the .455 Webley Mk V introduced in 1914. Also shown is the open recoil operated action of this pistol. The Webley-Scott instead used a simple v-shape leaf spring and operating arm. The arm was pushed rearward by the short recoiling slide (pushed back by the backwards forces of expending propellent) and acted against a v-shaped spring nestled in the right panel of the pistol grip. A risky venture, a thin recoil spring packed into the grip alongside the seven round pistol magazine.
As to the magazine, where most modern and successful auto-loading handguns have a follower hold open (a part of hte magazine which rounds are seated on and push upwards until empty) the W&S did not. That means when the pistol fired the last round, the slide simply cycled and returned to battery. No hold open to lock the slide back, alerting the firer to a dry guy.

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