Suspicious Offers at Gun Show ??

Last weekend I had a table at a small gun show. I turned down two sales that would have been to out of state buyers. (NOT legal). Both buyers were persistent, even after I refused to sell to them. One buyer was just across the state line into Tennessee and I offered to get the pistol delivered to a dealer in his city with no extra charge. He declined.

Very seldom does the problem of out of state buyer arise, at least for me. Two out of state buyers in one show and both buyers being persistent after being told NO it is NOT legal, made me just a little suspicious.


Thanks,
Bekeart

I smell a "STING"!
You did right.
Jimmy

You did the right thing.

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Lynnie, Professional Pest

Where did they park their camels?

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Dum vivo cano

I had someone badger me about a revolver I was selling at a local gun show, you are better off telling them to get lost. It is a felony to sell to an out of state buyer in my neck of the woods way to much to at stake no matter how much they offer. You did the right thing.

Not that I " Know" anybody that works for a four letter firearms agency.. BUT.. it happens all the time... not at every show in every town.. but..

You did the right thing..unfortunatly there are some who do not and make it bad for everybody else..

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SWCA #2306
DAV in honor of POP

I'd start carrying a digital camera, if their not afiard to have their picture taken, show it to the local authorities.

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UNDER THE CONE OF SILENCE

It may or may not have been a sting. In any case you did the right thing by not breaking the law.

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too TOO young!!

I was selling a rifle on another forum. I had a similar experience. He wanted me to ship the rifle straight to him to avoid an FFL charge. I obviously refused. I just do not need trouble like that. Then I checked his post count which I normally do not do to a buyer. I always check out the seller, but rarely the buyer. And that person had a post count of 1. Tom.

Any attorneys on here know if the attempts by the buyers to get the FFL holders to break the law is itself illegal ? Would it have been a good idea to call LE on the attempted buyers ?

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I like Ike.

I’m neither a Lawyer nor an Attorney spokesperson, but an “Anti-Bloomburg” law was recently enacted in West Virginia that not only addresses the specific situation described by the OP, it also goes after the puppet-masters.

In part, the new law reads:
(f) Any person who knowingly solicits, persuades, encourages or entices a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition to transfer a firearm or ammunition under circumstances which the person knows would violate the laws of this state or the United States is guilty of a felony. Any person who willfully procures another to engage in conduct prohibited by this subsection shall be punished as a principal. This subsection does not apply to a law-enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity. Any person who violates the provisions of this subsection is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned in a state correctional facility for a definite term or not less than one year nor more than five years, or both fined and imprisoned.

Personally, I encourage all sellers to check to see if a similar law exists in their state, to photograph and/or record anyone attempting to make illegal purchases and forward that information to the nearest LEO.

I also encourage those of us living in states not have a similar law codified, to advocate the passage of one by their respective state legislatures.

John

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Age + Treachery = JohnnieB

Without going into a long dissertation, I will say that entrapment defenses are problematic at best. First off you have to admit you did the act constituting the crime and them must prove that abseot the coersion of the individual you would not have donw the act. Without going into a long discourse about what constitutes coersion sufficent to meet the definintion vs the defendants propensity to break the law coerced or not -let's just say that it is a **** shoot at best and is usually a lawt resort defense. In other words the "I wouldn't have sold it to him if I knew he was a cop" defense ain't gonna work. SUbstiture this scenario for the undercover dope buys and you'll see what I mean. It does work, but it is a very fact specific call.
Example #1. Guy at gunshow is asked by a guy to sell him a gun as above and does it. Not entrapment.
Example #2. Little old lady with grampa's .38 goes to gunshow with her bridge partner to sell dead husband's .38 in order to buy groceries. Same guy offers to buy the gun under the same circumstances as #1. Entrapment

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Forum consigliere

The fact that one buyer wouldn't even accept your offer to ship it to an FFL holder might mean he knew he could not pass a back ground check when he picked up the gun. Whatever the case, you potentially saved yourself some serious problems.

Yet another reason I don't sell guns!

However, you guys are missing the real problem. Why is it illegal to sell a legal product to someone in another state? The best I recall, the Constitution prohibits states from arbitrarily closing its borders to another states commerce. For the same reason, I feel that Kalifornia's attempt to prohibit any companies in Arizona from bidding on Kali's government jobs is illegal.

Just my $.02.

Sorry for the diatribe. Bekeart, you did the right thing under the current situation. I just don't feel it should be illegal.

The Highlander

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I hope I copied that right

The BATFE has always loved questionable stings against individuals. There isn't the danger involved in going after violent criminals.

Sting or not, you did the right thing.


Okie John

I have seen BATFE agents making offers at gunshows. One approached me, I didn't know at that time he was an agent, but I had a bad vibe about him and told him I had nothing for sale.

I later found out he was an agent, glad I didn't let him make his pitch.

OTOH, the best deal I ever got was from a local LEO at a gunshow. A like new J frame 2 years ago for $125 !

You did the right thing, no doubt....and it may have even been an attempt just be be "filmed" as they did here in Ohio and elsewhere with those 'jerks' from New York, from Bloomburgs office, he said he was gonna do it , and they did and people still fell for it..........either way, its still a"'sting".............good idea "whip out the cell phone camera, and take THEIR picture...."

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dan
NRA Benefactor,PMA

Not exactly on the topic, but last summer I went into a gun-show with my son and daughter-in-law who were visiting from out-of-state. I had my digital camera and wanted to get a few pics of them as they enjoyed the show. A couple of verging-on-hostile people came up to me and demanded to know why I was taking pictures. One dealer told me to get away from his table with my camera. At that point I decided to put it away.

had a guy try to buy a dpms ar 15 from me at a show back in the summer, he kept saying it was for his boss said that at least 6 or 8 times then he gave me his cell number and told me to call him, yea rite! im happy the dpms is still in my safe and im not in jail! i didnt want to sell it anyway.

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WILL WORK FOR AMMO!

I had a friend since deceased thet designed machine pistols and was a manufacture with the proper licensces to do so told me that they approaced him at about every gunshow that he set up at that some one always wanted him to saw off a shotgun or modify something to be full auto. He said he could tell them as far as he could see them, they drove Blue or black fords or chevys with small hub caps. This man designed the machine pistol that I listed for sale about a year ago on the want to sell guns on the forum. So be aware it does happen. Jeff

I have had 3 or 4 suspicious encounters at the Tucson shows over the last year. Usually there are 2 of them and while one talks to you about what ya have, the other always seems to get on your flank. I usually carry one or two pistols for sale as I walk around the show, and most 'normal' buyers don't flank you like they are ready to "take you down". They also just feel like cops.

Bekeart, you did exactly the right thing, be they BATFE or not.

It's funny how many LEOs just cannot break certain habits when sent undercover. Many, many years ago in England I had two narcs attempt to make a drug buy off me. Apparently their brief was that I was dealing, probably because I was a social butterfly and did not stick to one crowd in one bar. This was a total crock but what can you do, they get these ideas in their heads and it can take a lot to prove to them their error.

Even if I had been the local Mr Big, they would have been SOL as they were so obviously cops. One talked and the other always listened, even though there was an attractive lady at the table with me. That and some other indicators that I will not discuss marked them as cops as if they had entered the bar with flashing light bars on their heads. I am afraid I played them for a bit before sending them off with a flea in their ear.

what happen to me was ...walking around a G.S with a colt dbl eagle and had a guy wanting to buy it when i ask him to see his Ohio I.D he pulled out a Tenn. I.D and said he moved to Ohio and has not switched his DL over to Ohio yet...he even offered $75.00 then what i was asking for it...i said i could not sell it to him, he hounded me for 10 mins be for i said that i would have to sell it to a FFL holder....

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Scott from Canton Ohio

What's the problem? I sell guns in and out of state to anyone that has the cash. I just make sure they are 21 or over and the gun is a pre-1898 - if not , all they have to give me is a copy of their FFL , the cash and they can take the gun and walk! No problema! I don't take credit cards or checks. I live in Calif. where there is a Task Force of ATF & local LEOs that go to gun shows to set up sellers. About 5 yrs ago, I heard of a very clever seller that set up the Task Force. They looked at a nice Model 1911 on his table, priced at $ 1200. Said they would buy it if they didn't have to do "any paper' - seller said "OK show me the money" - It was 12 one hundred dollar bills with sequential serial numbers. He started to hand the 1911 to the ATF guys, then said " wait, let me put it in a gun rug for you" He reached under the table with the 1911, and switched it with a Model 1911 non-gun movie prop, put it in the gun rug and handed the rug to the Agents. They showed their badges and said he was under arrest for an illegal gun sale. He said "What's illegal about selling a non-gun?" There was a lot of hollering and complaining by the ATF guys and their supervisor, about them being scammed, etc. and they wanted their money back. Now everyone in the room knew who were the undercover agents. The seller gave them the
$1200 back, but not the same sequential bills. Ed.

I'd be afraid they were counterfeit. Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

Two or three years back at the Reno show in April I had two guys approach me over the AR upper I was carrying around. Started asking me about full auto parts, etc.

I listened to them for about 30 sec's then asked them if they were CRAZY or ATF Agents? They looked at me and started asking about autos ears,etc all over again. I simply walked away.

Here in MT during my LE career my relations with 90% of the ATF Agents I ran into were very positive. No trying to set up Dealers , or entrapping folks at gun shows.

FN in MT

I had a Tech 9 that had a broken stock (non-repairable) I took to a gun show where a lot of questionable people hang out at the flea market next door. 3 came up to me and asked if I'd sell them the gun in the parking lot. I said no, and they asked to see it. I again said no. I then told them it was not for sale and one who looked like he was 14 offered me $400 cash. The entire time I kept moving to the gate, and finally said if they wanted to buy it they could all show me their Ohio ID's, and I would pay their way inside and then sell them the gun. They refused. Once inside while waiting to get the gun zip-tied, I told the Officer, and he just looked over at me and said "NEXT!".

My guess is either a set up or the Officer knew they would bolt if he called them, and since he did not witness the "trying to buy", it would just be a lot of paperwork. Either way, they boys took off in a fast walk when they saw me point their way while in line.

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Good life will not Heaven get!