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  #1  
Old 11-09-2010, 05:14 PM
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Default Can a gun manufacturer keep your gun if it has a defect?

I had posted this in one of the forums but dont think it will get to many views.
The original posting was about a S&W 624, some have a defect in the cylinder and if your serial number is in range you should send it back to be checked. If found to be defective they will keep your gun and offer you a new gun but a different model. Well what happens if you want your old one back?

<insert my post >

I am curious as to how they can"keep the gun" I dont see any legal way they can. They dont own it, you dont consent to them keeping it. I dont care if they found it turned to glass and will explode on the next round. They can inform you as to its condition and not to use it, in writing. They may even be able to do something to render it inoperative temporarily, say remove the hammer. They cannot render it inoperative permanently, say cut it in two. They arent doing you a favor by taking the gun and sending you a new one. They are taking away a future liability and cutting their loss now. Better to lose the cost of a new gun ($500 ?) rather than hundreds of thousands later.

If manufacturers could do this what stops Toyota from taking your car next time you take for an oil change.

As for the owners liability, if you are not the owner of record, haven't received written notice that this could be a defect. You should not have liability of this. The owner doesn't have an obligation to see if there's a recall. However if you did get notice, or can be linked to having prior knowledge of a safety defect, and knowingly sell it with out full disclosure, you might have liability should something occur.

What happens if you sell an old lightweight gun with an aluminum cylinder and the next owner shoots it and blows it up?

I am NOT a lawyer and may NOT be correct!!!

What say our legal eagles?
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Old 11-09-2010, 05:43 PM
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I'm with you. I can see how they can make you an offer to buy it back but if you don't want to sell, the gun belongs to you.

edit: I'm not a lawyer either. Having a law degree apparently enables one to take a simple situation and complicate to the point that wrong becomes right.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:47 PM
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I sent a lightly fire damaged mini-14 to Ruger a few years ago for a 'factory fit' part. They pretty much wanted to keep it & offered a new one 'at cost'. It may not of been a great deal, but I took it. I don't know what they would of done if I said I wanted the gun back.
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Old 11-09-2010, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cp1969 View Post
Having a law degree apparently enables one to take a simple situation and complicate to the point that wrong becomes right.
It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

My guess is they can't legally keep it. Its "registered" to you, if only in the sense (and they don't know) that you filled out an ATF form when you bought it. And you paid for it.

I'm thinking they do have custody of it, and you might have a minor fight on your hands to get it back, but push comes to shove, they have no legal right to keep it, defective or not. So if they have it, and you want it back, write them a letter demanding your gun back.

Its a public relations nightmare for them to attempt to retain it against your wishes. Or to in any way deface it or render it even less safe than it might be now. My guess is like all negotiations, the first offer from them isn't going to be the best one. Be a jerk if you must, but you can demand the gun back. Them refusing to return it to you is basically theft. They really don't want you calling the BATFE and claiming they've stolen your gun. Its bad juju.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:00 PM
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if you send a ruger 357 max blackhawk back to the factory you will not get it back. I'm not sure what they will offer you in return but it won't be the 357 max. I also believe that if you rebarrel a ruger rifle and send it to them it for repair will come back in the caliber it left the factory
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:25 PM
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If Ruger kept my .357 Maximum, they would definitely have a fight on their hands! There is absolutely no reason to take those guns out of service and they can be used as the basis for some nifty custom guns in other calibers. I sold one recently for substantially more than I paid for it and I would not take kindly to Ruger's just deciding they were gonna keep it no matter what inducements they offered.
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:39 PM
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n4zov,

Nonetheless, they will keep it.

To the OP and n4zov,

They may not have the legal right to keep it, but if they do like Ruger does you'll have a fight on your hands. Have you got the resources to go toe to toe? You know you'd have to hire an attorney.

There is a tremendous list of things that are done in this country that are done without a legal right to do so, with corporateAmerica and .gov at the head of the list.

Still happens though.

Pick your battles.


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Old 11-09-2010, 07:45 PM
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I sent a brand new Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter .41 mag back to the factory for a shopping list of gripes. Since I special ordered it , I was stuck with it. I sent them a letter with my list of gripes. They wanted to see it , sent a pick-up tag , and after several weeks(!) , agreed that it should have never left the factory. They informed me that since it was a special run and sold out , it might be awhile till they could build me a replacement. I said no problem as long as the final result was worth the grief.

It wasn't!

The replacement was only marginally better than the one I sent back.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:26 PM
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Several years ago I bought a new CAS model 1872 Open Top and did a couple of club shoots with it. As I reload, I was looking at the spent cases and noticed that each case has a small spot each in the same place. It looked like melted brass, however the cases did not stick in the chamber. I took it to a gunsmith and asked the question "whats up with the spot?" Turns out it had a pin hole in the cylinder. I sent it back to the factory thru my dealer, they did not send the gun back to me but sent an up graded model with a fancy fireblue finish in .44 colt caliber. Not even the same caliber. It had such a beautiful finish I figured I was ahead of the game.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:24 PM
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Sooooo if Ford.. GM...Toytota.. Honda.. Sears.. pick one.. had a recall/ or was not able to fix your ...pick one .. and offered to give you a new one because the old one was unsafe and a danger to life and limb..yours or anybody else.... you would refuse?? ..HMMMMMMM
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditrina View Post
Sooooo if Ford.. GM...Toytota.. Honda.. Sears.. pick one.. had a recall/ or was not able to fix your ...pick one .. and offered to give you a new one because the old one was unsafe and a danger to life and limb..yours or anybody else.... you would refuse?? ..HMMMMMMM
Toyota has/had a problem with certain model trucks. They didn't seize them when rendered for service, but they did offer way over market value (cash offer) to buy them back.

IMHO, this is the correct course of action in these situations.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:14 PM
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Very interesting question.
Maybe Cajunlawyer can chime in.
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Old 11-10-2010, 05:56 AM
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I would think a manufacturer of any product they deemed dangerous in any way would be kept by them, think about it. If they knowingly sent you back something that might hurt someone or cause liabilty damage then they would set themselves up for a massive lawsuit. Much easier to fight you in court, where you'd hope to win the actual value of that item, or what the court would consider a suitable replacement. Watch what you send in for service guys................ just my opinion, Shoo
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:25 AM
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I think Shoo is onto it, guys.

If you send, say, your favorite 629 back to Smith & Wesson that you've had forever and have turned down $2,000 for it from someone with more money than sense, and they find it to be totally unsafe for whatever reason, they have nothing to lose by keeping it and refusing to return that particular item ( except maybe a public relations black eye from a small portion who might notice).

Think about it . . . they keep it and offer you a new replacement or the equivalent in cash, or take the chance of having to pay you or your survivors millions in damages and medical bills if it maims or kills you or someone else if they return it ( plus the public relations nightmare that would turn into). Common sense - no contest.

You can howl and jump up and down and maybe even get more than replacement cost out of it just to shut you up and make you go away - or pay a lawyer to go through the motions and come away with the same results while enriching the legal profession.

But the manufacturer comes out ahead and safe anyway and that is always the position they are going to take. You can argue "right or wrong" and that is a judgment call when weighing the risks and potential hazards. But "legal" in many cases is what you can get away with, because no court is going to return that firearm to you to use as you see fit and indemnify the manufacturer against any liability and allow you to assume total liability now and in the future from whomever eventually winds up with it - ain't gonna happen.

Last edited by NFrameFred; 11-10-2010 at 10:03 AM. Reason: redundancy
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:56 AM
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About 4 years ago I found a 'S' Model 58 in bad shape at a gun show for only $150. The cylinder would not open, finish was a rusted nickel over blue, and no grips. I sent the poor .41 mag to S & W and asked to have it restored. S & W called me a week later and told me the cylinder was damaged, the extractor was from a .357 and they did not have the correct parts to restore it. I thought about have them just return it an trying to sell the parts. They offered me a new revolver at cost in exchange. Since they didn't have any 4" 41 magnums, I ended up getting a new Model 317 3" for just under $400. Not sure it was the best deal and did not ask if they would return the Model 58.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catshooter View Post
n4zov,

Nonetheless, they will keep it.

To the OP and n4zov,

They may not have the legal right to keep it, but if they do like Ruger does you'll have a fight on your hands. Have you got the resources to go toe to toe? You know you'd have to hire an attorney.

There is a tremendous list of things that are done in this country that are done without a legal right to do so, with corporateAmerica and .gov at the head of the list.

Still happens though.

Pick your battles.


Cat
You are probably right, but I wonder what happens if you report the gun as stolen to your local LEO's (which it certainly is), it gets listed in NCIC database, and then you file a complaint with the PD of the city where the manufacturer is located. Tell them that the bums over at the XYZ gun company have your stolen gun in their possession. I'd even be willing to involve the BATF! Yes, that is a far fetched, but I wouldn't hesitate a second to do it.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:17 AM
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To those who think that the company can seize your firearm:

You send S&W a 29-2 in for a trigger job or a refinish. Can they keep your 29-2 and demand that you accept a 29-10 with a lock because the 29-2 without the lock isn't "safe"?

How about if you send in a Triple Lock in some insanely rare factory caliber like 10.4mm Italian or 11mm German. Can they keep your exquisite rarity and "replace" it with a 29-10 because, without the lock, it's not "safe"?
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:19 AM
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Over here in Germany, they do keep the defective gun and will send you a new one - unfortunately one has to pay for the registation ....
happened to me with a brand new Browning Maxus shotgun that blew the complete trigger group, local distributor/repair center replaced the shotgun - I had to pay postage and registration fees :-( - I should have bought a Remington .... ;-)

Last edited by Hermann; 11-10-2010 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelgun28 View Post
I had posted this in one of the forums but dont think it will get to many views.
The original posting was about a S&W 624, some have a defect in the cylinder and if your serial number is in range you should send it back to be checked. If found to be defective they will keep your gun and offer you a new gun but a different model. Well what happens if you want your old one back?

<insert my post >

I am curious as to how they can"keep the gun" I dont see any legal way they can. They dont own it, you dont consent to them keeping it.
If the defect poses a risk to the user or others, they can keep it. If they returned it to you and it blew up in your face, they would be legally liable for that hence they can act to remove the hazard.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
To those who think that the company can seize your firearm:

You send S&W a 29-2 in for a trigger job or a refinish. Can they keep your 29-2 and demand that you accept a 29-10 with a lock because the 29-2 without the lock isn't "safe"?
NO. Most guns have no lock, therfore they can not claim that the absence of a lock is an unacceptable hazard by accepted legal standards currently in force.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n4zov View Post
You are probably right, but I wonder what happens if you report the gun as stolen to your local LEO's (which it certainly is), it gets listed in NCIC database, and then you file a complaint with the PD of the city where the manufacturer is located. Tell them that the bums over at the XYZ gun company have your stolen gun in their possession. I'd even be willing to involve the BATF! Yes, that is a far fetched, but I wouldn't hesitate a second to do it.

Uh.. how could it be stolen if YOU sent it to them..
I'm jus' sayin'.. seems like you would be charged with filing a false report.. ?? I'm Jus' Sayin'
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:17 PM
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Uh.. how could it be stolen if YOU sent it to them..
I'm jus' sayin'.. seems like you would be charged with filing a false report.. ?? I'm Jus' Sayin'
You are correct, and they have no sense of humor on things like that.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:46 PM
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Hold on here for just a moment. The Toyota example and the S&W one where they "allow you to buy (as in add more of your cash)" are completely different.

In the Toyota truck instance, they were offering a $4000 credit on the purchase of a new truck. They were giving nothing. Just a pitch to get you into another truck, which you had to buy. I have a buddy who refused their "generous" offer. They ended up replacing the frame for him, plus some other parts at no charge. He could have spent $25,000 more and gotten a new truck, which he didn't want and couldn't afford.

With S&W, telling you they're keeping (stealing) your old gun and offering you a 22 for $400 is a real ripoff. Can you just see the pickets at the SHOT show with the sign "S&W Steals customers firearms!". And then out in front of their headquarters. Yes, you'd have to travel. But the thing would be a public relations nightmare for them.

If you must hire an attorney to recover your own property they kept because they "felt" it was unsafe, you need to go into demonstration mode. Offering you a minor discount to save them a potential liability just doesn't cut it. You send them a nice note demanding your property back. If they refuse, hunt them down and kill them. OK, maybe that's not so legal. Just like what they did in stealing your gun.

So you get on the internet on every gun related board you can find and tell the story as it happened. Give them or any other firm trying that **** a black eye.
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Old 11-10-2010, 03:55 PM
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..carefull what you send away I guess..

Gun companys have been taking their bad/dangerous designs and known under spec parts & guns off the market for a long time.

Winchester began trying to remove their Model 11 shotguns from the world in the '20s by issuing an even swap proposition.
Bring the WidowMaker into an authorized Winchester dealer and you'd receive a brand new (IIRC) Winchester M12 in return.
At the same time Winchester decided to refuse repairs on the M11. Any sent into NewHaven were to be kept and a replacement gun returned to the owner.

Ruger still converts any 3-screw S/A revolver that enters their repair facilitys to a transfer bar system,,wether you wanted them to or not.
You don't get the old parts back anymore either.

You can argure,,and plenty of people have I'm sure,,that the conversion isn't something that you asked for and that the original parts that were in the revolver rightfully belong to the person that sent it to Ruger.
But the practice continues and will so long as personal injury lawsuits continue to rubber stamp stupid behavior with large checks.

As long as a replacement is offered or given, or restitution made, the practice seems to have some grounding as it continues to go on.

'Keeping the public safe by removing unsafe items from the market place' has a good track record in corporate America both for PR and keeping a company alive.
They have to satisfy share holders who are usually not interested in the product,,just the profit line.

To do otherwise is usually a very bad move for any manufacturing enterprise these days.

Just my .02
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:49 PM
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Hi:
Several years ago I purchased a used S&W Model 638. While cleaning the revolver I removed the rubber grips and observed black streaks on the grip frame. Thinking it was from the grips I attempted to take the rubber streaks off with negative results. I contacted S&W Customer Service and was mailed a box and return form. Several days later I was contacted by S&W and informed that the grip frame was cracked. I was sent a new Model 638 with "THE LOCK"! I later replaced "THE LOCK" with the "PLUG". All in all, I was a "Happy Camper".
Jimmy
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:07 PM
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I think alot of folks are confusing a Criminal Offense with a Civil Action.

If some one or a corporation takes your property without your consent, it is a Criminal Offense.

Contact the appropriate authorties and make a criminal complaint.

Rule 303
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq View Post
..carefull what you send away I guess..


Winchester began trying to remove their Model 11 shotguns from the world in the '20s by issuing an even swap proposition.
Bring the WidowMaker into an authorized Winchester dealer and you'd receive a brand new (IIRC) Winchester M12 in return.

As long as a replacement is offered or given, or restitution made, the practice seems to have some grounding as it continues to go on.
Contrast your examples with them taking your gun and offering a "discount" on the purchase of a new one (that you may not want.)

The restitution thing can get sticky, too. They can say (at their sole descretion) that your gun was defective, so basically worthless?)

We're a S&W board here. We generally defer to the company. But we also aren't bound by any rules preventing us from calling them out on their bad products or behavior (reference the love of the "lock".) Here we're seeing a company acting in its best interests to the exclusion of their customers. They're just going to do as they please, legal or not.

Now you see why so many Americans have come to hate the corporate world. They don't feel bound by ethics or morals. As they lose customers, they even wonder aloud why.
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Old 11-10-2010, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rburg View Post
Hold on here for just a moment. The Toyota example and the S&W one where they "allow you to buy (as in add more of your cash)" are completely different.

In the Toyota truck instance, they were offering a $4000 credit on the purchase of a new truck. They were giving nothing. Just a pitch to get you into another truck, which you had to buy. I have a buddy who refused their "generous" offer. They ended up replacing the frame for him, plus some other parts at no charge. He could have spent $25,000 more and gotten a new truck, which he didn't want and couldn't afford.

With S&W, telling you they're keeping (stealing) your old gun and offering you a 22 for $400 is a real ripoff. Can you just see the pickets at the SHOT show with the sign "S&W Steals customers firearms!". And then out in front of their headquarters. Yes, you'd have to travel. But the thing would be a public relations nightmare for them.

If you must hire an attorney to recover your own property they kept because they "felt" it was unsafe, you need to go into demonstration mode. Offering you a minor discount to save them a potential liability just doesn't cut it. You send them a nice note demanding your property back. If they refuse, hunt them down and kill them. OK, maybe that's not so legal. Just like what they did in stealing your gun.

So you get on the internet on every gun related board you can find and tell the story as it happened. Give them or any other firm trying that **** a black eye.
I tried just what you're advocating and was told by one forum that they would not allow my post for fear of litigation because I called a company thieves for taking my money and not returning an ordered product. Be careful what you say on these forums.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:20 AM
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I tried just what you're advocating and was told by one forum that they would not allow my post for fear of litigation because I called a company thieves for taking my money and not returning an ordered product. Be careful what you say on these forums.
Sounds like a pretty wimpy forum. As long as you post the facts and those facts support your claim (that they are thieves or liars or generally incompetent or whatever) they should not object to your post.

It's funny: on a 1911 forum I posted a truthful statement about the poor quality cast extractors Para Ordnance put on a gun I paid about $1000 for and how a couple of other parts sucked.

Not long after, I received a PM from the man who is in charge of parts at para offering me replacement parts...... seriously. They do read the forums, truth has a lot of power these days.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Rule 303 View Post
I think alot of folks are confusing a Criminal Offense with a Civil Action.

If some one or a corporation takes your property without your consent, it is a Criminal Offense.

Contact the appropriate authorties and make a criminal complaint.

Rule 303
That's completely wrong. There is absolutely no criminal intent if they hold a gun which they can not repair to a safe condition. There is no crime. In the interaction, they are legally held to a much higher standard of knowledge and responsibility. If a car dealer was servicing your 1963 BMW and noticed the rotors were worn past the safe limit but didn't fix it because they could not get parts for such an old model.... they would be liable for any crash related to brake failure. I have actually seen similar cases: they will type it onto the service order and require customer signature understanding the risk before they will release the car. With a gun, catastrophic failure is so dangerous that the maker will simply not assume the risk of returning a defective gun to service if it is in their hands. And you know why:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this death weapon from hell had been serviced by the maker only nine years prior to the incident and the manufacturer did not disclose the risk to my poor client..."
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Old 11-11-2010, 07:32 AM
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Im not picking on you bountyhunter, your post is similar to many above.

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There is absolutely no criminal intent if they hold a gun which they can not repair to a safe condition. There is no crime.
This would be a civil matter, its a property dispute. They didnt take it from you, you gave it to them. Much the same as a dry cleaner that wont give you back your jacket. You cannot have the police arrest the local dry cleaner.

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In the interaction, they are legally held to a much higher standard of knowledge and responsibility. If a car dealer was servicing your 1963 BMW and noticed the rotors were worn past the safe limit but didn't fix it because they could not get parts for such an old model.... they would be liable for any crash related to brake failure.
IMHO, this is somewhat true, they would be seen as an expert. How ever they cannot refuse to give back your car, nor offer you a nominal sum for it. If you want your car back, you can make a big fuss. They can how ever make you sign waviers, and other such things. This would prove that you knew the condition of things and the dangers involved. IE a paper trail of liability.



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With a gun, catastrophic failure is so dangerous that the maker will simply not assume the risk of returning a defective gun to service if it is in their hands.
id say less danger than a car. A gun cant run into a school bus full of kids, or other such things.


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And you know why:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this death weapon from hell had been serviced by the maker only nine years prior to the incident and the manufacturer did not disclose the risk to my poor client..."
yes or the manufacture pulls out signed forms saying that Mr X knew that this was defective and despite our warnings and misgivings he wanted this back. Mr X stated that this was a family heirloom and want it as such. In fact before it was returned to him the firing pin was removed making it unable to fire and therefore safe, unable to hrut anyone. Please see copies of the signed documents telling Mr X that the gun was rendered in operable and should remain so. He knew the risks and dangers, despite our warning he acted in a reckless manner and caused such an incident.

I could go on with this but you get the point.

I happen to work in an industry with lots of old machinery. Sometimes you find one that OSHA has found to be unsafe by design. Meaning that not matter what you add to it safety wise its still unsafe. If the manufacturer is still around and they find out who has it they will send a certified letter to the owner. They explain that its unsafe and they must stop using it. They dont offer any money or anything else. Also with things like machine tools and forklifts, if the item is scrapped. And for what ever reason it winds up back in service someplace. The prior owner still has a liability. So if you scrap something like that you need to make it permanently inoperable. Liability is a funny thing sometime...
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:38 AM
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I am not sure why you would want a defective product back??

Lots of things in life are not fair. But why on earth would a company send something back to someone when they truly believe it is a defective product?? Forget about the legality of it. It would be irresponsible for them to send you back a defective product.

I could just imagine the liability sending it back would open them up to. I can hear it now.

"Well judge we did not want to send the gun back to the guy. We told him it would blow up in his face. But he insisted."

WOW-I am sure that would go over with a judge and jury. I guess I just don't understand?? Tom.
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  #33  
Old 11-11-2010, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bountyhunter View Post
NO. Most guns have no lock, therfore they can not claim that the absence of a lock is an unacceptable hazard by accepted legal standards currently in force.
They can just as easily claim that ALL of the guns WITHOUT the lock are "unsafe". Actually, that's something I'd expect the government to do, with their collusion.
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:22 AM
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Uh.. how could it be stolen if YOU sent it to them..
I'm jus' sayin'.. seems like you would be charged with filing a false report.. ?? I'm Jus' Sayin'
So then if you drop your kid off at the pediatrician, it's NOT kidnapping if they won't give him back?
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:34 AM
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It's funny: on a 1911 forum I posted a truthful statement about the poor quality cast extractors Para Ordnance put on a gun I paid about $1000 for and how a couple of other parts sucked.

Not long after, I received a PM from the man who is in charge of parts at para offering me replacement parts...... seriously. They do read the forums, truth has a lot of power these days.
A construction company where I was the network and PC guy used an architectural CAD program called Archicad. It was a great program, oddly enough written in Hungary. Unfortunately, their customer support staff in San Francisco were some of the worst I've EVER seen. They'd lie to you about the product, then blame YOU for believing the lie they told you. One of our architects had a problem with some features. I tried to call customer support and got nowhere. They wouldn't even return calls. Finally, I posted my question on a usenet CAD newsgroup, noting the problems I'd had with the "support" people in San Francisco. Somebody in the newsgroup emailed me wanting to know what kind of problems I'd had with support. I gave him a quick summary and thought nothing else of it.

A few days later, I got a phone call in the office. The guy had an accent thicker than Alan Grayson's skull. I finally was able to make out something like "This is Istvan at Archicad in Hungary". He asked if I was the guy who had complained about support. I told him that I was. He replied that he was very sorry for the rudeness and lack of support and that they'd sacked their entire U.S. support staff and hired new personnel who WOULD help customers.

Yes, companies DO pay attention to what people say about them and even occasionally do constructive things about it.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:45 AM
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So then if you drop your kid off at the pediatrician, it's NOT kidnapping if they won't give him back?
I truly do understand your point and where you are coming from even though I don't agree; but the arguments are getting more and more specious!

The pediatrician kidnapping your kid ?!?!?!

OK, let's take this to an equally bizarre and ridiculous set of circumstances . . . you drop your kid off at the pediatrician and they discover he has the measles, whooping cough, syphilis, and the black plague; you think they're just gonna say "Here's a prescription, send him on back to school this afternoon."?

Like I said, bizarre and ridiculous - but equating a potentially fatally flawed inanimate object that you own with your child is stretching the limits of sensible discussion to make a point
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:49 PM
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They can just as easily claim that ALL of the guns WITHOUT the lock are "unsafe". Actually, that's something I'd expect the government to do, with their collusion.
Under the law, it is the current "standard of performance" which prevails. They can say anything they want, but they can not claim all guns without locks are inherently unsafe.

Some Mercedes have a whole battery of built in safety features like roll bars that pop up when the car rolls, self leveling suspensions, avoidance sensors, etc which far exceed typical for the industry which 99.9% of cars do not have. Nobody could complain that products which do have the industry standard safety features were inherently defective because they did not come up to the highest level of a small percentage of products.
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wheelgun28 View Post

This would be a civil matter, its a property dispute. They didnt take it from you, you gave it to them. Much the same as a dry cleaner that wont give you back your jacket. You cannot have the police arrest the local dry cleaner.
Correct, that's exactly what I said.

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IMHO, this is somewhat true, they would be seen as an expert. How ever they cannot refuse to give back your car, nor offer you a nominal sum for it. If you want your car back, you can make a big fuss. They can how ever make you sign waviers, and other such things. This would prove that you knew the condition of things and the dangers involved. IE a paper trail of liability.
Theoretically, the gun maker could send you legal papers to sign and then later return the gun. However, they can't if they actually believe the gun is defective in a way it could likely cause injury and believe it can NOT be repaired. In the case of the car with bad brake rotors, the repair shop can claim that it's possible that somebody could find some good rotors on a junk car and restore safe performance. BUT: if the gun has a cracked frame, cylinder etc or any defect that can cause catastrophic failure, they can NOT release it because that is not a "repair". It essentially requires rebuilding the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by wheelgun28 View Post

id say less danger than a car. A gun cant run into a school bus full of kids, or other such things.
But it can blow up in your face. I agree, a car can do more harm because of larger mass and car manufacturers must quickly fix defects found because of it.

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yes or the manufacture pulls out signed forms saying that Mr X knew that this was defective and despite our warnings and misgivings he wanted this back. .
In truth, such forms don't really protect the maker who is judged to have superior knowledge. In many cases the idiot will claim he could not understand what he was signing away and the juries award money to the fool. Not fair, but true. But, in the case of a car, it's the best they can do if they see a dangerous condition.

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Originally Posted by wheelgun28 View Post

I happen to work in an industry with lots of old machinery. Sometimes you find one that OSHA has found to be unsafe by design. Meaning that not matter what you add to it safety wise its still unsafe. If the manufacturer is still around and they find out who has it they will send a certified letter to the owner. They explain that its unsafe and they must stop using it. They dont offer any money or anything else. Also with things like machine tools and forklifts, if the item is scrapped. And for what ever reason it winds up back in service someplace. The prior owner still has a liability. So if you scrap something like that you need to make it permanently inoperable. Liability is a funny thing sometime...
Yep, and deep pockets always end up biting the manufacturer even if they are judged to only have 1% of the liability. They still pay the whole judgement because nobody else involved has any money.... and because idiots on juries always assume the companies have insurance so it doesn't "hurt" them to get hit with massive fines.
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