Dang computers....

[johngalt]

So I have a 17" 2011 MacBook Pro. One of the last good ones. It is probably the best computer I have owned. The only problem is it only has 1 thunderbolt port, which I use for an external monitor. I would like to also plug in an external drive for backups, so I need another port.

I found a thunderbolt dock, which has a bunch of ports plus an extra thunderbolt port. Hooked it up, all appeared well. The next day I woke up my Mac. The dock started buzzing, the Mac froze up. I unplugged everything and rebooted. The mac video came up with weird vertical stripes, then went grey, then shutdown. Mac is dead. Panic ensues - EVERYTHING is on it.

Fortunately I have an old spare I use as a test machine. I pulled the drive and transplanted to the spare (can't do that with the new ones). So I was back in business.

Took my dead 17" to the genius at the Apple Store. It is now 'vintage' so they won't fix it even though there are still parts available (for California's 7 year support requirement). The repair program to handle the infamous video hardware failures just ended end of December, 2 weeks ago. Refused to budge on that too.

So is it time to buy a new one? The new ones have no ports. Well, they have USB C/thunderbolt 3. However no dongles are available to support my old FireWire and thunderbolt drives or monitor. No DVD drive. Can't use my external keyboard or trackball. No user upgradeable RAM or drives - everything is soldered together.

I checked the benchmarks I've seen published. The new ones are only about 40% faster than my 5 year old one on the single core tests. Multiple core tests are better, about 80% improvement. No where near enough to make up for losing my big 17" screen, ports, DVD, support for every OS back to snow leopard, and the ability to easily recover my data in the event of hardware failure.

So I found a refurbished 17" of the same era, it should be here next week. Hope it isn't about to suffer video hardware failure too...

So was it just confidence, or did the dock kill my Mac? That model is known for video failures, but interesting that happened immediately after plugging in the dock. And the electrical buzzing.

I RMA'ed the dock back. They wanted to do some troubleshooting, and asked if I tried it on a different Mac. I said no, killing one was enough. They of course say it isn't possible for it to have killed it.

[bigwheelzip]

My husband's MacBook had odd problems when the battery swelled and put pressure on the board.

Your fighting a tough battle as a Mac user who wants to keep using legacy hardware and operating systems. Corporate doesn't make it easy. Good luck.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

My husband's MacBook had odd problems when the battery swelled and put pressure on the board.

Your fighting a tough battle as a Mac user who wants to keep using legacy hardware and operating systems. Corporate doesn't make it easy. Good luck.

Yeah, Jony Ive is out of control with the form over function thing. They should be embarassed about the Mac Pro. It hasn't been updated since its initial release in 2013, and is a poor replacement for the old tower. In theory it has slots for user upgradeable RAM, SSD drives, and video cards but no one makes anything that actually fits in the cylinder.

They are just disposable appliances now.

[Wise_A]

Style has a price.

[muddocktor]

And what you are experiencing is exactly why I've stayed away from Apple's computers. Your old MBP was the last "good" laptop they made, IMO. All this new trash they are putting out is basically throw away if something breaks, since everything is soldered down to the mainboard instead of having a discrete hard drive and upgradeable/replaceable ram. And yes, I did try out a Mac Mini back in the day when they had socketed processors and upgradeable ram slots. It was a nice little thing, but when I saw the way that Apple was going with their hardware I decided to go back to Windows based machines. There is no way I would buy one of their present laptop offerings as I'm not going to be raped on ram upgrades or storage upgrades.

[soFlaNative]

Not a fan of Apple's business model since the days of MacPlus.
Greed powered forced obsolescence, no matter the product, turns me off.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by muddocktor

And what you are experiencing is exactly why I've stayed away from Apple's computers. Your old MBP was the last "good" laptop they made, IMO. All this new trash they are putting out is basically throw away if something breaks, since everything is soldered down to the mainboard instead of having a discrete hard drive and upgradeable/replaceable ram. And yes, I did try out a Mac Mini back in the day when they had socketed processors and upgradeable ram slots. It was a nice little thing, but when I saw the way that Apple was going with their hardware I decided to go back to Windows based machines. There is no way I would buy one of their present laptop offerings as I'm not going to be raped on ram upgrades or storage upgrades.

The modern reality is that is the way things are now, including the Windows world. I don't they are much different. The last I read, Apple boards have been designed by Intel since the switch from PowerPC processors.

All of my career I have used Windows machines, the desktop cases were usually junk. Cheap metal stampings with edges like razors on the inside. Put together with cables too short to reach the drive bays. Drive bays aren't square so that a new one won't slide in, etc.

The PowerMac G5 and old Mac Pro towers were the pinnacle of good design, but they were expensive. So they're gone now.

Windows is ok, but I like OS X better (even now). At least the Mac is a clean system out of the box, while Windows machines come preloaded with 3rd party junk.

I don't like the direction of Mac OS X is going. After upgrading to El Capitan it was nagging me to set up and log into iCloud every time I logged in. I found a fix for that.

The Mac OS X team has been folded into the iOS team, which doesn't bode well. I'm not happy with the way the Mac has been dumbed down to look like an iPad.

With any luck the refurbished machine will keep going for a while. Maybe I should get an old Mac Pro...

[chaparrito]

I have two MacBook Airs in the house, plus phones and an iPad, but my everyday workhorse is the 15in. 08 MacBook Pro I'm typing this on. I bought it new. The RAM is maxed and I recently upgraded it with a 100 dollar 240 gig solid state drive as its original mechanical hard drive was getting noisy and spinning up way too much. Nearly as fast now as my Airs. I'd bet that dock killed your machine.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I would like to also plug in an external drive for backups, so I need another port.----

Would a USB hub not be sufficient for expansion? For your stated purpose of a backup drive, USB2 works fine on my 2009 iMac. I backup over 3TB with Time Machine on an external 4TB. And yes, my iMac has a 4TB internal. Seamless and unnoticed backup, and I'm regularly adding 5gig and larger files for Time Machine backup.

At some point a laptop ceases to be a laptop with endless ornaments hanging from it like a Christmas tree . There's wireless options for backup, To go along with the refurbished Pro, a refurbished Time Capsule would be one way to go. If you don't need or want to backup your entire drive, Apple's iCloud is an option. I pay 99 pennies per month for 50gig. All my family pics, docs and things I'd like to save if my house burns down. And with iCloud drive I can access it all from any of my devices at home or on the road.

Took my dead 17" to the genius at the Apple Store. It is now 'vintage' so they won't fix it even though there are still parts available... So is it time to buy a new one? -----

Not if you don't want to.

If you don't know anyone in your area to fix it and you can't find someone you're comfortable sending it to, ya might contact DeskTop solutions in Chattanooga. If it can be fixed, they can fix it. Great to do business with and reasonable prices. Labor to install the 4TB drive in my iMac was $50. Very pleased.

------

Other related comments here...

The latest macOS Sierra continues Apple's march in the right direction for my needs which is compatibility with all my Apple devices including IOS, media uses and file sharing at home and away. Happy Apple camper. Oh... and macOS Sierra with Siri is very nice.

We be backing up files around here...

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Would a USB hub not be sufficient for expansion? For your stated purpose of a backup drive, USB2 works fine on my 2009 iMac. I backup over 3TB with Time Machine on an external 4TB. And yes, my iMac has a 4TB internal. Seamless and unnoticed backup, and I'm regularly adding 5gig and larger files for Time Machine backup.

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

I only have USB2, which is slow. Much much slower than Firewire. But the big reason it isn't suitable for backups is it isn't bootable and can't do target disk mode. A USB 3 Express/34 card would give me faster usb backups, but it still isn't bootable.

My backup strategy: partition my external FW or Thunderbolt drive into 2 partitions. I use Carbon Copy Cloner to make a bootable clone of my internal drive, use the other partition for Time Machine backups. I plug in the drive when I want a time machine backup. In the event of total failure, I can boot from the clone and restore the time machine backups to recover.

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

At some point a laptop ceases to be a laptop with endless ornaments hanging from it like a Christmas tree . There's wireless options for backup, To go along with the refurbished Pro, a refurbished Time Capsule would be one way to go. If you don't need or want to backup your entire drive, Apple's iCloud is an option. I pay 99 pennies per month for 50gig. All my family pics, docs and things I'd like to save if my house burns down. And with iCloud drive I can access it all from any of my devices at home or on the road.

That is exactly the situation with the new laptops - I would need a bag full of dongles (which aren't available yet) to work with my old stuff. So what if a laptop is thinner and lighter if I have to carry all of that stuff too. My 17" has everything built in. No dongles required.

I don't work on the road, but I do travel between Wisconsin and Indiana. I don't really need a laptop, but do want transportable desktop. The 17" fills that role nicely - most of the power of a desktop in a portable package. I don't care about having the 'thinnest and lightest'.

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

If you don't know anyone in your area to fix it and you can't find someone you're comfortable sending it to, ya might contact DeskTop solutions in Chattanooga. If it can be fixed, they can fix it. Great to do business with and reasonable prices. Labor to install the 4TB drive in my iMac was $50. Very pleased.

I did finally find someone local who says he can fix it. I'll take it in Monday and see what his verdict is. Thanks for the tip, if my guy can't do it, I'll try yours.

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

The latest macOS Sierra continues Apple's march in the right direction for my needs which is compatibility with all my Apple devices including IOS, media uses and file sharing at home and away. Happy Apple camper. Oh... and macOS Sierra with Siri is very nice.

Obviously, different people have different needs. I hesitate to say the newer MacOS revisions are ****, because they aren't. They just don't fit my needs.

I don't use iCloud, I don't trust it. I've seen the many online services that have come and gone - iDisk, iTools, iLink, mobileMe, etc. I'm not willing to trust my data to 'the Cloud' and be at the mercy of Apple's whims. I would rather just plug in a cable as needed.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by johngalt

In theory, yes. In practice, no.

I only have USB2, which is slow. Much much slower than Firewire. But the big reason it isn't suitable for backups is it isn't bootable and can't do target disk mode.
.

Intel machines can't boot from a USB drive?

How to set up and use an external Mac startup disk - Apple Support To use an external USB drive as a startup disk, the drive must have Mac OS X Tiger v10.4.5 or later installed, and your Mac must have an Intel processor.

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My 2TB external backup drive was Firewire 800. When I went to a 4TB the Firewire drives were significantly more expensive than USB. After thinking about it, I came to the conclusion that using a USB2 port on my iMac would be slower but wouldn't matter to me since it was for backup not regular access of data... and Time machine is all in the background invisible to me. Perfect.

I would rather just plug in a cable as needed. --

Sounds like you'll be plugging drives in and out for backup? If that's the case then I can understand speed being an issue.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Intel machines can't boot from a USB drive?

How to set up and use an external Mac startup disk - Apple Support

To use an external USB drive as a startup disk, the drive must have Mac OS X Tiger v10.4.5 or later installed, and your Mac must have an Intel processor.

------

My 2TB external backup drive was Firewire 800. When I went to a 4TB the Firewire drives were significantly more expensive than USB. After thinking about it, I came to the conclusion the using a USB2 port on my iMac would be slower but wouldn't matter to me since it was for backup not regular access of data. Perfect.

I guess I'm remembering from back in my Powerbook G4 days. You couldn't boot from them then, so I always bought firewire drives. Never had a USB drive. They might not have even been available, in those days USB was at version 1 and was only good for plugging in keyboards, mice, and small thumbdrives that ran at floppy speed. Firewire is fast enough that you can use it for a boot drive, but a USB drive would be painful.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by johngalt

I guess I'm remembering from back in my Powerbook G4 days. You couldn't boot from them then, so I always bought firewire drives. Never had a USB drive. They might not have even been available, in those days USB was at version 1 and was only good for plugging in keyboards, mice, and small thumbdrives that ran at floppy speed. Firewire is fast enough that you can use it for a boot drive, but a USB drive would be painful.

Sure, booting from a USB2 would be considerably slower than FireWire 800. That said, I'm not doing a lot of startups from external drives.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil

Sure, booting from a USB2 would be considerably slower than FireWire 800. That said, I'm not doing a lot of startups from external drives.

I don't boot from the backup drives often, but is very handy when upgrading the OS. I always do a clone before installing an update. If I don't like it, I boot the clone and undo it. I consider bootable backups a necessity.

[muddocktor]

Originally Posted by johngalt

The modern reality is that is the way things are now, including the Windows world. I don't they are much different. The last I read, Apple boards have been designed by Intel since the switch from PowerPC processors.

Apple's boards have been designed by Intel or other x86 based manufacturers ever since the switch to x86 processors. The basic architecture of the boards is the same except for the bios or EFI implementation, which is Apple-specific. Many folks built Hackintoshes back years ago that got around Apple's EFI or bios configs and made their own OSX computer. You do have to be fairly computer-savvy to do so though.

All of my career I have used Windows machines, the desktop cases were usually junk. Cheap metal stampings with edges like razors on the inside. Put together with cables too short to reach the drive bays. Drive bays aren't square so that a new one won't slide in, etc.

The PowerMac G5 and old Mac Pro towers were the pinnacle of good design, but they were expensive. So they're gone now.

I haven't bought a store bought desktop since my first Windows machine back in 1994. I've made my own since then from commonly available components, including quality cases every bit as good as anything Apple has produced. And I did my own installs of Windows, which isn't much harder than re-installing an Apple OS.

Windows is ok, but I like OS X better (even now). At least the Mac is a clean system out of the box, while Windows machines come preloaded with 3rd party junk.

I don't like the direction of Mac OS X is going. After upgrading to El Capitan it was nagging me to set up and log into iCloud every time I logged in. I found a fix for that.

The Mac OS X team has been folded into the iOS team, which doesn't bode well. I'm not happy with the way the Mac has been dumbed down to look like an iPad.

With any luck the refurbished machine will keep going for a while. Maybe I should get an old Mac Pro...

If you do a clean install of Windows when you buy your new Windows computer instead of using the installed OS that came from the manufacturer, it will be just as clean as your Apple computer. It's not hard to wipe and reinstall the OS; just go download the drivers needed from the manufacturers website first. And for laptops, which I quite seriously considered a MBP for my last purchase right before Windows 8 came out. But I absolutely hated the idea of not having a discrete modular hard drive or replaceable ram that mounts in slots. I've seen too many times where solid state chips on a stick of ram have died for no reason and even solid state drives were a bit iffy in my rather conservative opinion back when I bought my last laptop. And having this soldered down to the mainboard pretty much renders it unrepairable at the house. My present laptop, which is a Lenovo Stinkpad , has a drive bay and ram slots, so if my hard drive takes a dump it's an easy swap out for something new (modular SSD or regular hard drive) and the same goes for the ram.

As for the OS, last time I was using OSX it was nice, but to me no better than Win 7. And don't go on about viruses and such as I've spent nothing for quality antivirus protection since I don't know when. And no virii either. But I'm glad you were able to find yourself a good used MBP. In my opinion, Apple has dropped the ball for their professional users by going for "cutesy" throw away trash.

[bigwheelzip]

Originally Posted by muddocktor

In my opinion, Apple has dropped the ball for their professional users by going for "cutesy" throw away trash.

With the advent of their iphone line, and the profit stream it generates, it's surprising they still bother to offer computers.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

With the advent of their iphone line, and the profit stream it generates, it's surprising they still bother to offer computers.

You say this as if the iPhone isn't a computer?

Apple still sells a Mac or two. About 5 million in Q3 last year. Significant increase since going with Intel starting in 2006. The release of iPhone no doubt helped drive Mac sales.

[Targets Guy]

I haven't enjoyed a computer since my old 8088.

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by muddocktor

Apple's boards have been designed by Intel or other x86 based manufacturers ever since the switch to x86 processors. The basic architecture of the boards is the same except for the bios or EFI implementation, which is Apple-specific. Many folks built Hackintoshes back years ago that got around Apple's EFI or bios configs and made their own OSX computer. You do have to be fairly computer-savvy to do so though.

I've thought about going the Hackintosh route. At home, I just want it to work. I've reached that point that I don't want to fiddle with it any more.

Originally Posted by muddocktor

I haven't bought a store bought desktop since my first Windows machine back in 1994. I've made my own since then from commonly available components, including quality cases every bit as good as anything Apple has produced. And I did my own installs of Windows, which isn't much harder than re-installing an Apple OS.

If you do a clean install of Windows when you buy your new Windows computer instead of using the installed OS that came from the manufacturer, it will be just as clean as your Apple computer. It's not hard to wipe and reinstall the OS; just go download the drivers needed from the manufacturers website first.

I used to do a lot of installs at work - setting up machines with multiple drives each with different OSes, setting up development machines, etc. Windows 7 was easier than XP, primarily because had drivers for the more recent hardware. XP was a bit of a pain because it was much older than most of the hardware and we had to download lots of drivers. And we hated the way machines came polluted with the 3rd party junk, so it was a handy way to wipe all that out. The problem is that now a lot of Windows machines don't include the Windows installer.

Originally Posted by muddocktor

And don't go on about viruses and such as I've spent nothing for quality antivirus protection since I don't know when. And no virii either. But I'm glad you were able to find yourself a good used MBP. In my opinion, Apple has dropped the ball for their professional users by going for "cutesy" throw away trash.

Yeah, I think Apples 'immunity' to viruses is a bit oversold. They are a smaller market so get less attention. But if it works...

Overall, I think Apple still has the better 'complete package'. They are clearly catering to the consumer iPhone/iPad crowd, rather than the power user, which is disappointing.

Blast from the past - here is a funny video of how Microsoft would have designed the iPod packaging.

YouTube

[johngalt]

Originally Posted by bigwheelzip

With the advent of their iphone line, and the profit stream it generates, it's surprising they still bother to offer computers.

One of the geniuses told me that Apple uses the iPhone/iPad to sell computers, that is why they are making MacOSX look like iOS. They don't care as much about customers who are MacOSX buyers first and iOS second - we are a much smaller market.