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Old 02-09-2011, 02:28 PM
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Default 45acp Round Chambered Backwards

During recent night quals....we conducted a drill (in the dark-about 2000 hrs CST DEC 2010) where you ran out of ammo behind cover while during a simulated gun fight and your back up (from a distance) threw a fresh magazine to you.

Weapon-G21SF 13rnd mags with ball

Distance-roughly 10+ yards

Problem-when the fresh mag (loaded with 10 rnds) hit the ground and bounced....it fell where it stripped off the top round.

The officer remembers seeing the top round in the mag looking up (with what little light there was) or similiar to a smokestack. He thumbs the round back into the mag and sees the other round on the ground and loads the mag. With the low light and stress added by the instructors telling you to load quickly and get back into the fight, he must have turned a round backwards in the mag.

He is not a "gun" guy, but this could have happen to anyone in a real gun fight where time is minimal and stress is high.

anyway....he recalls the gun firing once and then it wont fire again. he goes through the tap rack drill but after several attempts with tap rack....the scenario was ended by the instructors.

The round was "DRIVEN" backwards into the chamber and the bullet is driven severely into the case.

I happened to be near the firing range and get a phone call. I drive over to the range and the gun is handed to me. I felt like they were handing me a live grenade because everyone was afraid of it. A smartalec in the crowd said let see you get this one out.

I happened to have a key holder rod that triples as a cleaning round and stuck slug pusher. the end of the rod is hollowed out to accept screw on cleaning jags.

Anyway, I make a quick determination that the opening in the rod was wider than the primer of the round. I took a standard grip on the gun and DROVE the rod (in the barrel) into a solid barrier and after two tries, the round came free. I was wearing poly lensed glasses and I did close my eyes as a precaution.

everyone in the area started to flee when I did this in fear the round was going to ignite.

My question-
Let say this happened to a person who did not think to utilize a rod that somewhat protected the primer and the primer did ignite....

the slug was not supported....is is basically shrapnel in all directions?

will the slug stay intact....or does it break up with no chamber or barrel support?

anyone have experience with unsupported ignition of centerfire handgun ammo?

TIA
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:11 PM
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If you throw a cartridge into a fire the bullet moves very little and the casing becomes a piece of shrapnel. In this case the bullet may leave the barrel and the casing push against the the rod. This is my guess.
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:32 PM
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Thanks for the reply.

the bullet was only in the case. the cartridge was only partially backwards in the chamber....I can guess that approx 3/4's of the cartridge was sticking out of the chamber....backwards.
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Old 02-09-2011, 03:42 PM
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The slug will stay intact, the brass will rupture. The more contained the case, the more violent the case rupture.

If the case is 25-50% supported in the chamber, the shooter will likely get gas and brass in his face when he pops the primer trying to clear the jam.

He will be lucky if it only takes him out of the fight/drill.
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:06 PM
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I believe that Mas calls that key holder a Dejammer, and it also serves as a kubotan, but you probably already knew that.
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Old 02-09-2011, 04:17 PM
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Another case for carrying a BUG (in the same caliber as your primary).
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model520Fan View Post
I believe that Mas calls that key holder a Dejammer, and it also serves as a kubotan, but you probably already knew that.
thats it. i could not recall the name.

I wished I would have snapped a pic.

thanks for the replies.
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Old 02-09-2011, 06:01 PM
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If you were in the kind of pants wetting situation where you needed someone to throw you a mag, I doubt you would try to reload the top round.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:35 PM
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Having seen an idiot cut the shot out of a shotgun shell and throw it into a campfire, I can tell you that the primer will gain enough speed to penetrate a pair of Levis, fruit of the looms, and about an inch of flesh in one's pubic region. Not sure about the case, but look out for the primer. I do believe that the bullet, being the heaviest component, would stay in place while the shell explodes.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:46 PM
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A retired British Army friend told me about his young squadmate that tried to clear a GPMG improperly. He removed the hot barrel, the round stuck in the chamber cooked off, and the 7.62 NATO casing hit him in the belly, causing him to die two days later.
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Old 02-09-2011, 07:51 PM
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Being that the bullet was jammed further into the case, I would think that there would have been a significant increase in the pressure when that thing went off. I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near it if that happened.

Having said that, a flat ended wooden dowel, slightly smaller in diameter than the bore would be a safer tool to clear something of this nature. I know it is very rare to have the primer end of a case be the part that you must make contact with, but I would have been a bit leary of using a metal rod in this situation.


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Old 02-09-2011, 07:58 PM
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I think a dose of oil or anything that would kill the primer would be in order.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:35 PM
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blackhawk....how can you be sure the oil pentrated?

this is a duty weapon that would need to be returned to service, waiting for reliable penetration might take a while and then what if the primer is sealed.

I like the dowel rod. I need to make one for 45 and 9mil

I would even go one further and drill a dimple on the center end to ensure no primer contact.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLACKHAWKNJ View Post
I think a dose of oil or anything that would kill the primer would be in order.
I tried killing some primers with oil once, applied to empty primed cases from the case mouth end. I seem to recall that I let them soak a few hours. They still ignited. I wouldn't bet anything important on ANYTHING killing a primer without some intervening successful experimentation.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post
Thanks for the reply.

the bullet was only in the case. the cartridge was only partially backwards in the chamber....I can guess that approx 3/4's of the cartridge was sticking out of the chamber....backwards.
Lock the slide back. Muzzle pointing up. Grip pistol by slide and smack the rear of slide on a piece of wood and let kinetic energy do it's job. ( might work... maybe )

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 02-09-2011 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
Lock the slide back. Muzzle pointing up. Grip pistol by slide and smack the rear of slide on a piece of wood and let kinetic energy do it's job. ( might work... maybe )
Chattanooga....never thought of that.

who cares if I destroyed the thin slide stop lever.

hmmmm...thanks for that.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SW CQB 45 View Post

who cares if I destroyed the thin slide stop lever.

hmmmm...thanks for that.
"grab pistol by slide"

Just a thought....
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:34 PM
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CQB,

The Home Depots around here have a faily good selection of hardwood doweling. A 7/16ths dowel should be near to .437 diameter, 5/16ths would be .312. Those would be (probably) as close as you can get.

They also carry aluminum rods, unsure of what diameters though.


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Old 02-09-2011, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChattanoogaPhil View Post
"grab pistol by slide"

Just a thought....
ah....got it.

Cat...next time I am there, I will grab a couple and make up ready to go.

thanks
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