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Old 03-13-2011, 09:10 PM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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Default SA Range Officer Range Report UPDATE...I got it back from SA! See Post 22

I took out my new Springfield Armory Range Officer today and did some shooting. I did all my shooting at 25 yards off a rest. Two of the RO targets were shot by me, one of them was shot by a good friend of mine who is a deputy sherrif. (His was the 8 shot group.) I have included targets shot at the same distance with a S&W 586 (I had a called flyer on this one), and a S&W 41.

About a month ago, one of my shooting buddies buught a Range Officer, and all of us shot good groups with it. Sorta wish I'd kept a target from his gun... Right now, I am somewhere between moderately and severely disappointed.

The way I see it, I can:

1. Send it back to Springfield Armory and politely ask that they diagnose and repair my new pistol.

or

2. Load it, leave it in the nightstand for home defense, and be glad I didn't spend even more money on a TRP or Trophy Match. Quote from SA's descrpition below.

It is built with the same quality as the TRP™ and Trophy
Match™ models, but Springfield has removed the “extras” that result
in a higher price.

or

3. Try to sell. (I really don't like selling a gun that I bought new and filled out a 4473 on.)

What do you folks think?

Rawhyde

Range_Officer_Target_web.jpg

UPDATE 3/14/11

I spoke with Springfield Armory this morning about my accuracy issues. The lady was polite, and looked at the same pic I posted. She gave me a RMA number and e-mailed me a FedEx label. That was the good news.

The (kinda) bad news is:
She thinks my pistol is "just barely" out of spec somehow.
The accuracy spec is a 3.5" group at 25 yards.

The customer service lady conferenced in a Custom Shop rep and I learned that for $500, they could hand fit my pistol to the point where it would shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards.

I plan to strip the gun, give it a good cleaning, and compose a nice letter and prepare individual photos of the targets, then send it all in.

I hope that I get a good result, but I am still perplexed that they consider a 3.5" group at 25 yards to be acceptable. It does seem like adequate accuracy for a defensive pistol, but I think it comes up WAY short for any pistol used for recreational shooting/plinking. If any S&W or Colt revolver with a 4", 6", or longer barrel couldn't shoot tighter than a 3.5" group at 25 yards, I'd think something was wrong with it, or that it just HATED that load.

Springfield Armory asked me what I did consider to be acceptable accuracy for a 10 shot group @ 25 yards, and I answered that a ragged hole about like a silver dollar was what I expected. (I can't shoot like that every time, but occasionally, I shoot a cylinder full or a magazine full without jerking a shot.) If a ~$700 Distinguished Combat Magnum can shoot that well, why can't a ~$700 competition ready .45 ACP do it? She told me that I was expecting WAY too much from a .45 and that my expectations weren't realistic.

I called up Les Baer Custom this morning, and learned that they guarantee a 3" group at 50 yards, and have an "Accuracy Package" option for another $300 that guarantees 1.5" at 50 yards. The sad truth is that I can't see well enough or hold well enough to determine whether a pistol can meet either of those standards, but I gotta say that it'd certainly be a lot of fun and a great challenge to try.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I love to get a gun that is more accurate than I am and strive to shoot up to its level.

I'm not a Competition Shooter, I just enjoy shooting with my friends. We punch paper, we shoot groups, and we toss softballs, tennis balls, and other similar objects downrange and see how far away we can shoot them. (Just got some new Do All self healing targets to play with last weekend!) We just like to have fun, smell some burning gunpowder, and improve our shooting.

Last edited by Rawhyde; 04-10-2011 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 03-13-2011, 09:53 PM
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If your not happy then definetly send it back! I'm not up on Springfields newest but it seems to be ok for general defense duty.
Our they advertised as being a match pistol or just a hi-end 1911? Dale
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:16 PM
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Some of those impacts look like keyholes to me.
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Old 03-13-2011, 11:40 PM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
Some of those impacts look like keyholes to me.
I thought so too. Hearing it from you confirms my suspicion. Those were Hornady RN FMJ bullets. I shot Hornady, Magtech, and Master ammo. There was no significant difference in group size among the different types or by swapping shooters. I wasn't shooting my absolute best today, but the groups with the other guns were pretty good.
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Old 03-14-2011, 10:44 AM
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Read the article in April 2010 GUNS magazine by Massad Ayoob.

It's online so I guess I can post the link.

GUNS Magazine Digital April 2011

Springfield Armory is real good with their customer service. Depends on what they claim the gun should do. On their XD and XDm they claim and test, 2" at 25 yards. If it's not that they will check the gun.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:31 PM
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Have you got 500 rounds through it yet? In my experience (and by the instructions sheets in many 1911 new boxes) you need t break in a new 1911 with at least 500 rounds. It seems t settle everything down to their proper places. Also, have you tried more than one load? Some guns just don't like particular loads. SA has a pretty good reputation for reliability and accuracy.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Wayne02 Wayne02 is offline
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After 500 or so rounds if it's still not grouping 2" or less at 25 yards send it back. I had to send my target SA back twice and they finally, just barely got it within the 2" they claim its good for.

Not real thrilled about having to do that on such an expensive gun (or any gun for that matter) but I will say that SA was easy to work with during the exchanges.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:26 AM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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Update in the first post....
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:42 AM
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Not to be a jerk, but I think expecting the same accuracy from a ~$700 S/A Range Officer as a Les Baer ~$2,000+ is a little unrealistic. Seems like expecting a Chevy Cruze to handle like a Corvette. Just out of curiousity, did Les Baer quote you an OTD price on a custom with Accuracy Package? Cause I am guessing you can buy 2 more Range Officer's for the price they'll quote you and still have money for ammo. You might find sending it to a custom shop like Cylinder & Slide for an accuracy package beneficial--there are tons of custom shops out there, this is just the first one that came to mind.

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Old 03-15-2011, 08:17 AM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalty View Post
Not to be a jerk, but I think expecting the same accuracy from a ~$700 S/A Range Officer as a Les Baer ~$2,000+ is a little unrealistic. Seems like expecting a Chevy Cruze to handle like a Corvette. Just out of curiousity, did Les Baer quote you an OTD price on a custom with Accuracy Package? Cause I am guessing you can buy 2 more Range Officer's for the price they'll quote you and still have money for ammo. You might find sending it to a custom shop like Cylinder & Slide for an accuracy package beneficial--there are tons of custom shops out there, this is just the first one that came to mind.
You're not being a jerk, and it's not fair to expect a $700 gun to shoot like an expensive custom gun.

Likewise, I don't think it's a good deal for a new $700 pistol to shoot no better than my buddy's beat up $300 Norinco. Last month, another one of my shooting buddies got a Range Officer, and his shoots 1-1/2" to 2" groups at 25 yards from his hand or mine. I just want mine somewhere in that ballpark. I was stunned to learn that Springfield considered a 3-1/2" group to be "within spec". I would have kept my money in my pocket if that spec had been on their website.

I just called Les Baer because they are a very highly regarded pistolmaker. I wanted some basis for comparison. I was just excited to learn what exceptional levels of accuracy they claim, and I am seriously considering saving my pennies and dimes to get one.

I'm going to see what this gun does when it returns. If it doesn't shoot like the one my buddy got, I'm going to sell it and put that money into a Les Baer fund.
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:26 AM
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3.50 inches at 25 yards is more than the diameter of the 10-ring at that distance -- 3.36 inches. If I was SA, I'd be ashamed to ask a customer for another $500 on top of $700 already laid out to make the gun right. I don't care about the group size -- no pistol using good quality factory ammo should keyhole -- and those are definitely keyholes.

When the CS rep said "slightly out of spec" she was hanging a fig leaf of gigantic proportions. There is something wrong with the barrel, IMO. Most likely culprits are poor rifling or a barrel that is out of spec in terms of diameter (too large), or damage to the barrel crown. I've never had a problem with a Springfield barrel, but then again, I replace them with Karts or Bar-Stos.

This is why some of us lay out $1800 to get a truly hand-built gun (not a Baer or a Kimber or any of the other "semi-customs") that will shoot < 2.0 inch groups all day at 50 yards.

The best bullseye gunsmiths I know are David Sams, former head of the AMU's gunsmithing program, and Robert and Sandy Garrett of Northern Virginia Gun Works. These guys will still do an old-fashioned peen and squeeze job to get a good slide to frame fit, but the new way of building accurate 1911s is to start with a Caspian oversized naked frame and slide and a "Marine cut" Kart or Bar-Sto barrel, and to hand-fit everything till it perfectly meshes and locks up tighter than a bank vault. You can't get closer tolerances using any other method, and the guns built this way stay exceedingly accurate for a long, long time.

Sorry for the slight digression, but it bothers me to see the gun companies marketing 1911s as "match grade" when they ain't even close. I'd make 'em get it right, or, demand my money back.


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Old 03-15-2011, 08:28 AM
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I agree with your accessment of the S/A Range Officer. If it doesn't live up to your expectation when you receive it back from S/A you might as well move on, I had to do that with a S&W 4566TSW. Loved the gun, but I just couldn't hit with it. Selling it and moving is better than throwing more money at it trying to figure out what is going to make it better for you--when you have lost faith in the gun. Not that your Range Officer or the 4566STW I had were bad guns, as my brother-in-law could shoot tight groups with it, and you have a buddy that shoots tight groups--you may find like I did it just isn't the gun for you. I replaced my 45 with a S&W 1911 (108284 target model) and from the first range session my grouping was far superior to the 4566TSW.

S&W 4566TSW Target 10 yards


S&W 1911 (108284) Target 10 yards


This is in no way a symbol of the accuracy of either gun, as I am a terrible shot and don't claim to be good, but rather a comparison of how accurate I was with both guns.

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Old 03-15-2011, 09:02 AM
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I remember reading an article a while back where it was said that 4-inch groups at 25 yards is now the new measuring stick that all gun companies are going by with their handguns, and from what I have seen, your gun is not alone in this matter. I certainly would not accept groups like that from a gun with that type of price tag. My last 1911, a Para Ordnance Warthog with its 3-inch barrel could produce groups like that and better at 25 yards. What I find totally out of line is a company asking you for more money to get even a reasonable lever of accuracy. What I would tell them is that if I wanted to buy a gun that gives groups like a out of the box Glock or plain jane .45, I would have bought one.
I hear this though from more shooters all the time, why are some of these guns, with all of these modern manufacturing techniques, making guns that seem to shoot lousy groups? I wish there was a good answer, but I am thinking that its like a car company. You can have that performance car, they look good, but for more money, that car will run better because we'll sell you the V8. For more money than that,we will sell you the bigger V8 and other options. I am wondering if gun companies are doing the same accuracy wise. For the basics, you can have that 1911, it looks good, but it will do ok. That certainly sounds what they are doing here.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:49 AM
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It is so they can offer a large price range of models, and also offer "Accuracy Packages" from their "Performance Center." Assuming a likely comparison is $700 or so S&W 1911 to the Doug Koenig, as the S/A Range Officer to a TRP.

Rawhyde I PM'd you an interest link with target photos of a S/A Range Officer shot from Ransom Rest @ 25yards.

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Old 03-15-2011, 11:23 AM
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3.5-inches at 25-yards used to be common with Government model Colt .45s. I shot many, many that would go out to 5-inches, or even more. Nowadays, we do expect more, but I think your one-ragged-hole expectation is unrealistic. The RO is a production grade gun intended for the run & gun type matches at club level where high precision is not at a premium. It's not bullseye competition gun.

The best general guide (i.e., realistic) for determining acceptable handgun accuracy I know, for an ordinary production pistol, not a bullseye target pistol, is 1-inch per ten-yards. Quality revolvers usually do a bit better. This won't cut it for a target pistol used at 50-yards (5-inches), but the truth is not everyone can see, hold, and squeeze a lot better than that.

One of the best shooters I know is not even particularly interested in group size when the gun is fired from any sort of rest. His only concern is what he can do with the pistol when fired at a target offhand, under competition conditions. His opinion is that there is sometimes an apparent disconnect between potential accuracy indicated by groups fired from a rest and what the same gun and ammunition combination will do as he actually uses the pistol. Given his level of expertise, I am in no position to argue with him.

If you want a 3-inch, 50-yard 1911, even today I don't know anywhere you can get one for $500-$700. If you do get one, you're lucky and good for you, but I think it is the exception, rather than the rule.

It is nice to have a gun/ammunition combo that shoots a lot better than that 3.5-inches/25-yards, but I don't know if you can reasonably expect it for the price of the SA RO. But I agree I would like any modern 1911 .45 to shoot a bit better than 3.5-inches!

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Old 03-15-2011, 11:55 AM
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I have a bone stock SA GI model in stainless.
your groups look awfully familiar cept I didnt have keyholes.
I also noticed that its accuracy improved a bit.
Function is absolutely flawless first shot to last, which is more than I expect from a newborn bottom feeder.

I love its reliability but like you Im less than thrilled with its accuracy. but being fair I'll finish pounding that 500 rounds down its throat and see if it behaves thereafter.
If not ... its a mil spec 1911 frame ... This makes it the Ford Mustang of pistols. go fast parts grow wild for these guns so there is no reason at all they cant be made to dance a proper tango.
Thus far mine shows no wear at the barrel bushing and it should have signs of lapping in by now. I suspect the factory bushings are a loose fit, this will be where I start after the 500 round marathon.
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:06 PM
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I have the stainless M1A Loaded and it's a tack driver. The only problem I have with it is with 8 rd mags (Wilson Combat) it sometimes stovepipes the 7th round. It had a very light recoil spring in it (used gun) I replaced it with a 18lb and it is better but not perfect. I took out the extractor and cleaned in there, the ejector looks fine so I don't know???
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:16 PM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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I took it out today by myself with 50 rounds after work. I had to kneel on the ground and prop up on some crossties for a rest. If anything, it was worse. I'm sending it off later this week.

The more I think about it, the more determined I become NOT to pay the additional $500 to the SA custom shop to have them accurize it.

From my buddy's identical gun, I shot a clip full through a ragged hole (not a single hole, but a big ragged hole about like a pack of cigarettes). Mine should do the same without spending an extra $500. If it shoots when it returns, great; if not, I'll sell it and try again with another .45.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhyde View Post
From my buddy's identical gun, I shot a clip full through a ragged hole (not a single hole, but a big ragged hole about like a pack of cigarettes).

Send them the target and tell them that this is the least you expect, along with the serial number of the identical gun that made the group. For them, this may be as easy as fitting a new barrel, barrel bushing, and checking and replacing the barrel link if necessary. Give them as much incentive as possible to do so.

Let us know what happens. I've had two great wad guns built on box stock Springfield 1911s, but never fired one right out of the box. They sell these as match ready, and dang, they should be! That's what you paid for!!


Bullseye


P.S.: What kind of ammo produced the groups with the keyholes? What other ammo did you fire from this pistol?
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:53 PM
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FWIW,

I do not shoot the Springfield handgun well. My son in law has two (2) and I find that I am not proficient with the guns.

I don't know what it is but I do not shoot either gun well.

I will stick with my M&P 45 ACP and my Glock 32 and be very happy.
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  #21  
Old 03-17-2011, 03:36 PM
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venomballistics venomballistics is offline
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since my SA seems to be doing the same song and dance I did some investigation .....
lo and behold dude .. I think I found her sins.
the chamber hood seems to be key to maintaining barrel alignment at the rear of the pipe. since you cant jam the lugs into the slide without killing the slide rails and slide release, its all on that little block o metal to keep her straight.

from a closed position push on the barrel through the ejection port. if you can move it, it can only have a lock up as random as the lottery.
hand fitting a barrel feels like a worthy challenge for me your yardage may vary.
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Old 04-10-2011, 08:15 PM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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I got my pistol back from SA last week. The paperwork that came back with it says

POLISHED FEED RAMP, REAMED BARREL, RANGE TESTED -- SENDING TARGET PISTOL SHOOTS WITHIN FACTORY SPEC

MY buddy and I shot today at 20 yards and got the results in the picture. The ten round group had a couple of called flyers. Setting aside the flyers, it's pretty good. The five round group had no flyers and we were afraid to chance any, so we stopped at 5 shots.

I used Hornady TMJ-RN bullets over 4.8g HP-38 powder, and I think that will be my load until I get some lead bullets from Tn Valley.

SA's customer service people insisted that they did nothing but address the jamming issue by working on the feed ramp and "reaming the barrel". Their test target had a 5 shot group that would have fit on a cigarette pack laying on its side (about like the 7 shot cluster on the pictured target). They also insist that their accuracy spec is 3-1/2" @ 25 yards for 5 shots.

I sent the pistol in clean as a whistle and got it back dirty, so I know they shot it. I can also see some slight recontouring of the feed ramp, but I can't see anything done to the barrel. The good news is that it shoots much better!

I have a co-worker who has offered to pay me what O paid for it. Should I sell it or keep it?

Rawhyde

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Old 04-10-2011, 09:36 PM
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Are you happy with the gun or not? If not, you've got a perfect chance to move on. It doesn't sound like you like this gun, or what Springfield is telling you they expect out of their weapons. To me, for a service grade gun, 3.5-inches is about what I would expect. If your gun consistently shoots a lot better than that, I'd say you're lucky.
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:51 AM
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Test it with a box of factory ammo before you make a decision. See if it does any better.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhyde View Post
They also insist that their accuracy spec is 3-1/2" @ 25 yards for 5 shots.
...
Should I sell it or keep it?
I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - Les Baer guarantees about twice this level of accuracy, but they charge more than twice as much for the gun. ($1900 to $2300). You get what you pay for. You didn't pay for better than what you got - and that 5 shot group indicates that you may have a gun that shoots quite a bit better than the SA standard.
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Old 04-11-2011, 02:44 PM
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Never sell a gun that runs and shoots well, or better than it should.

Sounds like your gun now runs and shoots well?

You would have had a real bargain to take them up on their $500 accuracy job and only been into it for $1200.

By comparison my Wilson Combats run about 3k. Qualify costs.

Emory
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:58 PM
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If its a good shooter I'd keep it.

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Old 04-12-2011, 12:32 AM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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I am happy with how the gun shoots now. I wish it had done this well when I took it out of the box, but occasionally things don't work out perfectly...

My buddy's gun shot great and mine shot breakfast plate sized groups (3 different shooters and 4 types of ammo). I was a little disappointed, but sometimes a bad one gets through the system and I figured they'd make it right.

What upset me, and maybe I'm off base here, is that they advertise this model as being competition ready. When I called up to get an RMA number and described the problem, they told me that my accuracy expectations were unreasonable. When I asked for the spec, I learned that they consider a 3-1/2" group acceptable, I was flabbergasted. That's not what I consider to be "competition ready", or a "target gun". Les Baer discloses their accuracy spec (3" @ 50 yards, or 1-1/2" @ 50 yards with the optional accuracy package). I think they should disclose their spec in their advertising and catalogs especially if they're going to tell a customer that his expectations are unreasonable.

I got a defective gun. (That's ok, these things happen.) They fixed it. (That's great!) My heartburn is with them telling me that my expectations were unreasonable when it'd be very easy for them to publish their accuracy spec along with length, width, weight, and other specifications. Disclosing that info would allow customers to make a more informed decision about whether to buy.

I'm really not trying to rant here. They did do a good job fixing my pistol, and I am appreciative of that. Just a little bit of diplomacy on their part would have made a huge impact on the situation.


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Originally Posted by cowart View Post
I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - Les Baer guarantees about twice this level of accuracy, but they charge more than twice as much for the gun. ($1900 to $2300). You get what you pay for. You didn't pay for better than what you got - and that 5 shot group indicates that you may have a gun that shoots quite a bit better than the SA standard.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:05 AM
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The following is only my opinion based on my own personal experience. Standard 1911 pistols will not produce target grade accuracy. No matter how much better might be the sights, finish, feel, etc., on target accuracy will not be target grade unless the pistol is fitted for target work, i.e., the bushing fitted to the barrel and both fitted to the slide, the slide fitted to the frame, the trigger cleaned up for a good crisp break. The pistol must be fired with quality ammunition. No matter how well fitted the pistol might be and no matter how skilled might be the shooter, firing results will not be of target grade if one uses plain ball ammo or general quality reloads. With careful attention to basic marksmanship skills, very good results can be obtained with such a pistol. Unless one is a master class shooter, firing from anything other than a machine rest will allow to many variables to affect the on target results of accuracy testing. I have owned and shot a lot of 1911 pistols, mostly COLT, Kimber and Springfield Armory. Worked on to enhance fit, etc., very remarkable results have been obtained from these pistols. But straight from the box, none of these pistols were much more than service grade shooters. If you want a target grade pistol, you will almost certainly have to have your pistol worked on by a qualified gunsmith. I have learned the hard way that trying to get such results from a plain Jane box stock 1911 is an exercise in frustration. The reason Baer, etc. charge so much is because they offer a level of accuracy that they warrant. Hope all goes well for you. Sincerely. bruce.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:43 AM
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If the pistol was shooting poorly to start with and they fixed it, good for them. Of course, we're all always disappointed to have to fuss around with a new gun that we expect should work properly from the first day, but as you say, things do happen in manufacturing. The good part is they stood behind the product and fixed it.

As to the other part, maybe you are new to 1911s, but really, did you honestly expect this $600-$700 pistol to shoot with an $1800-$2000 Les Baer (or something similar) based on the simple advertising fluff that it is "competition ready"? That is just not realistic and they are right about that.

I am always leery of any accuracy claim in a mass produced gun, and you don't see a lot of figures published - for good reason. As has been said of 1911s many times here on this forum by shooters who know, if you really, really want a 1911 capable of target grade accuracy, a hand-fitted pistol assembled by someone (preferably a pistolsmith) who will absolutely guarantee his work is probably the safest bet. Even manufacturers with good reputations, like Les Baer and others, do not really have the ability to work one-on-one with the end user. They are manufacturing, and while that is good because it allows them complete control of tolerances they choose to work with, they have a sizable investment with overhead accumulating every second the clock ticks.

Glad you got this straightened out and hope the Springer now pleases you.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawhyde View Post
they told me that my accuracy expectations were unreasonable. When I asked for the spec, I learned that they consider a 3-1/2" group acceptable, I was flabbergasted. That's not what I consider to be "competition ready", or a "target gun".
OK, let's turn that around. MSRP on a SA Range Officer is $939.
Give us an example of a company that currently sells a 1911 for that same price or better, and with a guaranteed accuracy better than that.

If you can do that, then you have a valid complaint.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:00 PM
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I'm glad they got it fixed up to your liking. I would have probably done the same thing though I think that 3.5" groups at 25yds from a gun like that isn't an unreasonable guideline for them to go by and most of the guns probably come in under that. Of course, there's always a few that get by and obviously Springfield is willing to go out of their way to make their customers happy. I also had a Spingfield with problems and my CS experience was great. I bought a parkerized loaded last spring that had bad slide/frame fit issues. It was so bad that I only dry fired the gun, never shot it. I called Springfield the next day, sent them pics, and they sent me a return label. I included a letter outlining the issues and asking that they check the gun thoroughly for proper function as I had bought for a duty gun. They had it two weeks, they replaced the slide and gutted it replacing the barrel, bushing, and trigger group with their "national match" parts. They fitted everything, gave it an action job, and returned it to me with a custom shop target showing a 2" 5 shot 25yd group. It is a fantastic gun now, feeds everything reliably, fit and finish are excellent and the trigger is clean, light, and crisp, nothing like when I got it. The best part is they did it all under warranty.
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:55 PM
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Good news indeed! Glad to hear the Springfield did right by you! Dale
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:21 PM
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A handgun that will shoot 3.5" at 25 yards every time the trigger is pulled is a great combat handgun but not so much fun for target shooting with the guys.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:27 AM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I'm leaning towards keeping it. I got a gun that had some defects and Springfield made it right. The important part is that in the end, they did a fine job repairing it.

Like some folks have pointed out, I'm new to 1911's. Maybe I don't yet know what is reasonable to expect from the various models and price points. Even though they're apples and oranges, I still have a hard time understanding why it's OK for a $949 (MSRP) 1911 not to shoot nearly as well as a similarly priced 686. Most folks here seem to regard that as normal and expected, and I have learned that the advice given here is overwhelmingly spot-on.

I have called up Les Baer, Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, and Kimber to inquire about their various target 1911's. From my research, the Les Baer pistols are guaranteed to shoot a 3" group at 50 yards, and are available accurized to a 1-1/2" group for an additional fee. I can't really evaluate these guns against each other because I've never actually seen any of them in person (and I certainly can't afford to buy one of each to test), but the Les Baer's accuracy specification is better than the others, and their price seems to be less.

I think I'm going to order a Premier II with the accurizing package and most likely keep the Springfield.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
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I'm new to 1911's... I still have a hard time understanding why it's OK for a $949 (MSRP) 1911 not to shoot nearly as well as a similarly priced 686.
The revolver almost certainly has a considerably better trigger pull than the 1911. Its much easier for the factory to easily produce a good trigger pull on a gun that doesn't have a heavy slide whipping back and forth to disturb the hammer and sear. Your lone 5 shot group indicates that your 1911 is probably capable of very good mechanical accuracy. If you had a good pistolsmith do a trigger job on the 1911, you might find that you like it a lot better. Also, test it with actual match grade ammo, not generic 230gr FMJ bargain ammo.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
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...I think I'm going to order a Premier II with the accurizing package and most likely keep the Springfield.
Without getting too long-winded, and certainly with no intent to be snobby with you, I would discourage that. There is a big difference between the way Les Baer makes their standard gun and the way they make their 1.5-inch gun. If you are an inexperienced 1911 man and you just have to spend the bucks on a Les Baer at this time, do not order the 1.5-incher.

Another thing to remember is that there are only a handful or shooters that can actually make use of the 1.5-inch gun. I certainly can't. The radial difference of 3/4" at 50-yards (the difference between a 1.5-inch and a 3-inch gun) amounts to a sight alignment error of less than 0.003" over the length of a Premier II's sight radius (6.81"). That's pretty tough to see, much less hold and squeeze.

Baer's standard gun will shoot better than 95% of the people who pick it up - maybe 99%.
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:42 PM
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What kind of ammo were you using? A higher grade of ammo, like Federal match 185 gr. SWC will probably produce much tighter groups. Some reloads will produce nice groups. Run-of-the-mill 230 gr. ball ammo usually won't shoot that well out of the best match guns.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:39 PM
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As I said back in my orginal post try some different ammo. How can you rate a gun (any gun) with only shooting one kind of ammo (handloads at that)? No desrespect to you or your loading ability which I am sure is fine. Just some guns do better with different ammo.

I have the SA A1 loaded and it's a tack driver, it cost less the Range Officer.

I went round and round with SW over a MP45. I shoot all kinds of factory ammo, hand loaded ammo, different weights, powders. SW put a new barrel in the gun and it was still sending shots all over.I sent if back several times, with targets compared to my other 45's. Their customer service was excellent and went above and beyond but the gun was what is was. Maybe a combat gun but certainly no target gun. I traded it and got a SA XDm 45 that will out shoot the MP any day.
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:04 PM
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actually, if you have a tightened target gun,unless it's a hardball gun, shooting 230fmj will loosen it up quicker faster than anything. real match guns shoot 185 and 200 swc target loads and not the +p stuff. the faster the ammo, the faster the wear on the parts
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:28 PM
Rawhyde Rawhyde is offline
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I tried three different handloads and three different types of factory ammo for a total of six different loadings before SA worked on the pistol.

When it was shooting bad, the groups were about the same with either of the three shooters or the six different ammo types. What I'm trying to say is groups were the same regardless of ammo or shooter. That is what led me to believe the problem was real and centered on the gun instead of the ammo or shooter.

Now that it's working right, I've had two shooters and two types of ammo. The results were drastically better. Now when one of us shoots a mediocre or bad group, we question how we made an error or jerked the shot.

I don't mind a miss or a bad shot, but I'm not happy when nobody can shoot well with a particular gun (especially a new gun that's "competition ready") regardless of ammo type. I feel like I'm not getting effective practice in that situation. I'm just making noise and wasting primers, powder, bullets, and paper while eroding my confidence.

I like the 1911 style pistol. I like the looks and the feel of it. I just want one that's accurate enough for the types of shooting and plinking that we do. Now that mine's been repaired, I want to work on developing a load for it and working on my shooting technique with it. After reading some of the comments here and talking with various makers of 1911's, I am getting very interested in getting a top quality 1911 (leaning strongly towards a Les Baer based on what I've learned so far)


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What kind of ammo were you using? A higher grade of ammo, like Federal match 185 gr. SWC will probably produce much tighter groups. Some reloads will produce nice groups. Run-of-the-mill 230 gr. ball ammo usually won't shoot that well out of the best match guns.
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As I said back in my orginal post try some different ammo. How can you rate a gun (any gun) with only shooting one kind of ammo (handloads at that)? No desrespect to you or your loading ability which I am sure is fine. Just some guns do better with different ammo.

I have the SA A1 loaded and it's a tack driver, it cost less the Range Officer.

I went round and round with SW over a MP45. I shoot all kinds of factory ammo, hand loaded ammo, different weights, powders. SW put a new barrel in the gun and it was still sending shots all over.I sent if back several times, with targets compared to my other 45's. Their customer service was excellent and went above and beyond but the gun was what is was. Maybe a combat gun but certainly no target gun. I traded it and got a SA XDm 45 that will out shoot the MP any day.
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:43 PM
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I did not see any mention of other ammo used so my bad. I see you also had other people shoot it. If SA says the specs are 3.5 at 25 that really is not that bad. I always thought it was 2" but I guess they changed. If you are still not happy with it and have someone that will buy it perhaps look into the SW 1911, they are pretty darn good for the money. Unless you are planning on going into competition IMHO it's nuts to pay $1500-$2000 for a 1911.But, if you can afford it
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  #43  
Old 04-13-2011, 09:08 PM
X-RingDistroyer X-RingDistroyer is offline
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Default Springfield 1911's

I've had reasonable experiences. Not 45 but 9mm. I bought a new loaded 9 and when I got it home it appeared loose as a goose. I took that one to my 1911 guy and had a new barrel, new bushing, and slide hand fitted. It's defenitely tight now. I haven't had a chance to check it on the range yet. I put $400 extra into it and probably own it for ever now. (It isn't stock anymore). I did the same with a SW pro series 1911. I just felt that the more of a tack driver the gun the better, more confident I am.

I did buy a SA 1911 that was off the shelf (nothing special) used. It is one of my favorites and has very good accuracy. It was made at the Imbel plant and I didn't do anything extra to it.

I would say that if you trust the gun keep it. If it gives any doubt move on. Just my opinion. I like SA 1911's.
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  #44  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:11 PM
catboat catboat is offline
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I have a100% bone stock 45 acp Springfield 1911 Milspec (NM prefix), and it plops (5) 200 grain flat base SWC (SAECO #69) bullets sized at .452", 4.0 grains of Bullseye, .470 crimp, into a ragged hole at 50 feet/17 yards (2 hands rested, indoor range).
RANGE REPORT:. Range report: 1911a1 SA Milspec - 1911Forum

If you CALL Springfield Armory, and ask them about the milspec (and if it received any special "fitting"), they will tell you, "NO, it is a production line firearm, and does not receive any special fitting, parts, or extra attention." That's what they told me when I called. So, the Range officer is really nothing more than the MILSPEC, with an adustable rear sight, beavertail grip, long trigger (but about 5+ lbs pull, not "match" ). It's a nice piece, but it is NOT a "specially fitted" 1911.

Last edited by catboat; 06-30-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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  #45  
Old 02-25-2014, 09:36 AM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catboat View Post
...I have a 45 acp Range Officer en route to my FFL as I write this. I hope it shoots as well as my $400 Springfield Armory Milspec.
Let us know how that one works out for you. The load you mention, though pretty light, is notorious for good shooting in almost any .45 out there. One of the first 1911s I bought new was a Colt Series-70 Government model which wouldn't shoot Remington ball worth a hoot but it would (and still does) shoot my handloads with H&G 068s and almost any reasonable powder/charge combination like a champ. I still have the gun and shoot it now and then. It has its original "collet" type bushing - almost 40 years later - and seems to work fine, so I guess I was lucky with that. (knocking on wood ) It's a good gun - as long as you don't want to shoot ball.
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  #46  
Old 02-25-2014, 07:16 PM
boatbum101 boatbum101 is offline
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Reasonable expectation for 230 FMJ is 3" @ 50yds from an accurized 1911 . Any better is due to a well fit gun & a load it really likes . I too have several SA's that have been set up for Bullseye . The stock barrel , bushing & lockup leave much to be desired for a target gun irregardless of your discipline . There's not a stock mass produced 1911 that's " match ready " unless you go to the semi custom like Les Baer , RRA etc . So if one wishes better they have to me these choices : A) Send it back to SA for accurizing . B) Keep as is for SD & casual range use . C) Send it off to a 1911 'smith for the same work . D) Find a 1911 'smith local who can fit a match bushing , install a Dwyer Group Gripper ( only on a Range Queen , not for a SD gun ) , inspect / clean up engagement surfaces on hammer , sear , disconnector etc , upgrade same if needed . E) Sell it & move on . Some stock guns will shoot very well out the box , however they're the exception not the rule . If a stock gun will hold the 10 ring on a B-8 target you got a good one .
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  #47  
Old 03-02-2014, 12:24 PM
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Badquaker Badquaker is offline
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3 year old thread....ijs
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