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Old 03-31-2011, 07:25 PM
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Default Guy switches from .45 to 9mm after gunfight

A young guy we just got in the office was a uniformed copper before becoming a feebie.

As a cop, he rolled up on a gangbanger who matched the description of someone who had been firing at cars (in broad daylight). He stopped about 35 yards away and as soon as he exited the car the banger opened fire. My pal let fly in return with a Sig 220 .45 and hit him three times out of eight, the fatal shot being a hit to the thigh that severed the femoral artery. The good guy wasn't hit - the rounds went over his head and impacted a boat store some distance behind him.

He switched after the shooting to a Sig 226 9mm because he wasn't happy with his accuracy shooting the .45. He didn't use the 9mm in a gunfight after that, but he did headshoot a running pitbull with it, and was pleased with his choice.

I bring this up because I have seen instructors say they never heard of anyone who wished they had a smaller gun after being in a gunfight. I guess it does happen.

He carries a generic Glock .40 now, but that's because he doesn't have much of a choice.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:29 PM
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Interesting. FWIW, after working on about 100 handgun killing cases, I switched back to a 9mm. I have a .45, but I don't carry it hardly at all. (And I ditched the .40 entirely . . . .)

Great read, amigo; thanks!
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:32 PM
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My rule # 1: Shoot what you shoot best. Best to hit with a .380 than miss with a .477! (Not that I would recommend a .380)
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:39 PM
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Wink 9mm

A 9mm way not have nicked that femoral artery....which would have been a terrible shame. I kinda think he may be blaming the .45 for what was really caused by being shot AT!!
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:40 PM
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Never did understand why so many think a 9mm is not enough? I have both Sigs. Let's see 8 +1 or 15+1? Seem to work for a lot of agencies.

Both are extremely accurate guns.

Now maybe one of the double stack plastic 45's with 12 or so rounds.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:41 PM
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the ideal gun weighs 5 Oz when carried, 40 pounds when fired, and eats 12 Ga slugs from a belt.
I guess he couldn't deal with the lack of weight when fired.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCD1 View Post
Never did understand why so many think a 9mm is not enough? I have both Sigs. Let's see 8 +1 or 15+1? Seem to work for a lot of agencies.

Both are extremely accurate guns.

Now maybe one of the double stack plastic 45's with 12 or so rounds.
9MM I think of as a last resort.
start big and work down till you have something that works for you ... if it happens to be a 9MM .. then I guess it's better than fists.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:51 PM
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I don't have any problem with a 9mm. What a lot of people fail to consider is the improvements in bullet construction and improved powder in many modern loads, including the 9mm. Premium factory loads have made good performers out of several formerly marginal cartridges.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&WIowegan View Post
A 9mm way not have nicked that femoral artery....which would have been a terrible shame. I kinda think he may be blaming the .45 for what was really caused by being shot AT!!
I absolutely agree. In an actual firefight, percentage of hits is WAY lower than in virtually any practice scenario, no matter how realistic or how often it is practiced.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:14 PM
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Not sure I get this, he won the gun fight and parts with the gun that saved his life? I'd be glued to that gun for life.

As for his hit percentage; seems pretty typical for everything I've ever heard about real life fights.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Interesting. FWIW, after working on about 100 handgun killing cases, I switched back to a 9mm. I have a .45, but I don't carry it hardly at all. (And I ditched the .40 entirely . . . .)

Great read, amigo; thanks!
Question ..... why?

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Old 03-31-2011, 08:45 PM
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Wink Nothing wrong with a good 9mm

A lot of folks who question 9mm effectiveness seem to be locked in a time warp. In case they hadn't noticed 9mm and every other round out there, has gotten better over the years (you gotta love technology). I can't even count how many choices you have just in 9mm. Thirty years ago...not so much, but then how big was your cell phone 30 years ago??? Just about every LE agency in the country carried 9mm for years as they all migrated from wheel guns and many still do. That's good enough for me but largely because 9mm (in my case an MP9c), is what I shoot best. As always....YMMV.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:50 PM
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Everyone is different. We have different physical characteristics, and we shoot differently. Particularly under stress. But I doubt if many shoot better when being shot at, only worse.

That said, if you're an experienced shooter, not necessarily an expert, but someone who has shot for a long time and is stable in their shooting, you can tell for yourself. Just take your guns out for a leisurely afternoon at a range. See which gun you shoot best when relaxed. What you're really looking for is a material difference. You might discover there is little or no difference. Or you might find out you shoot one gun really poorly, and a bunch of others well. Or one brand better or worse.

Then sell any gun you don't shoot even moderately well. What good is it if it'll get you killed? But if you shoot one gun very well, note that and then carry it.

If there is no difference, and you can select any carry gun you want, then pick the one you just prefer, or the one with ivory grips!!
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:54 PM
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I support the following concept -

Shoot the largest caliber you can deliver with the best bullet placement, on a consistent basis.

Modern bullet design/manufacture does give the smaller calibers an advantage compared to their older counterparts.

A large hole is better than a small hole

More holes are better than one hole.

From my brother in arms Erich

Shot placement is King.

Adequate penetration is Queen.

Everything else are angels dancing on the head of a pin.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:13 PM
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A 35 YARD.. shootin/killin. Way outside the norm.
Don't think I'd use that as the basis to give up my .45
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitstream View Post
Not sure I get this, he won the gun fight and parts with the gun that saved his life? I'd be glued to that gun for life.

As for his hit percentage; seems pretty typical for everything I've ever heard about real life fights.
I asked him about this exact thing. He said he just thought he shot poorly with the .45 and was more comfortable with the 9mm. Rolling a running pit bull (it had just mauled a kid) affirmed his choice to him.

He's actually a very good shot, and hitting three out of eight at 35 yards with bullets passing overhead is probably better than I could do.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:45 PM
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I maintain that a person get accurate with practice. It does not matter if you use a .380, a 9mm or a .500.

Police officers are notorious for not shooting their sidearms until it is time to qualify. They do not practice as a general rule.

I shoot a .45acp 2-3 times weekly and can hit whatever I am aiming at and I am fairly accurate with point shooting. I did not get this way because I shoot a .45acp but rather I practice with the .45acp.
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
I asked him about this exact thing. He said he just thought he shot poorly with the .45 and was more comfortable with the 9mm. Rolling a running pit bull (it had just mauled a kid) affirmed his choice to him.

He's actually a very good shot, and hitting three out of eight at 35 yards with bullets passing overhead is probably better than I could do.
Well, I'd agree you should carry the gun you're 120% confident in rather than the one you're not completely sure of.

I guess it's just me; if I have something that "works", I stay with it. I have a bunch of hammers, but the one you'll find on my tool belt is always my Dad's old black handled Estwing. Why? It's just right in my hand. I have a number of guns, the one you'll find on my hip when I'm out and about is the one I shoot the best. Now, if I got in a gun fight with it and won, I'd definitely never give it up (assuming the court gave it back to me :-)
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
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I maintain that a person get accurate with practice. It does not matter if you use a .380, a 9mm or a .500.

Police officers are notorious for not shooting their sidearms until it is time to qualify. They do not practice as a general rule.

I shoot a .45acp 2-3 times weekly and can hit whatever I am aiming at and I am fairly accurate with point shooting. I did not get this way because I shoot a .45acp but rather I practice with the .45acp.
there is a lot to this statement I agree with.
Im trying to give my wife the gift of confidence with arms.
That arm right now is a 45ACP.
By my reasoning, I'd rather see if she can be seasoned to it before I allow negotiations for her go to piece.
When we pull the trigger, we have to have a baseline as to what to expect and it isnt going to be butterflies and potpourri ... though the latest cast bullet lube does have a nice hint of banana nut bread
She can rack the slide of my 45, which is a legit requirement, and the hardest part of operating a pistol.
The rest of the evolution is more about getting this city girl over her fear of being cuffed and stuffed for pulling the trigger. As we know, its illegality is more the exception than the rule .... we've got some work to do in this area
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:08 PM
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I shoot .45 and 9mm autos about the same way. Give me a .38 Revolver and I shoot much better!
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:34 PM
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I carried a SIG P226 in combat and never had a problem with it or the round (M882 ammo) I just recognized it's limitations and directed the rounds appropriatly.
If said officer feels better with the 9mm more power to him, I continue to use the cartridge and pistols chambered for it. Yes I own .45s but I figured out a long time ago that it isn't the round or the gun that wins the fight, it's the PERSON behind it!
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:07 AM
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Well, I can understand why he switched. I have a Para high cap .45 that I have always shot very well. Very well until I shot it in a steel match a month ago. The results are making me consider trading it off.

Why?

Because in the rapid fire match the torque was twisting the big Para out of my normal grip . . . thus making me miss. I'm a very good shot, and have won over 100 matches, but after that Para began to twist in my hand I was in deep trouble!!!

I have fairly small hands and the Para is quite wide. However, in slow fire at the range it works good . . . but NOT under the clock during a "fast and furious" type match.

Many folks just plink with their handguns, but when they must keep up a sustained rate of fire under stress they may discover their gun twists out of their grip too . . . and thus causes them to not shoot well. I surely learned my lesson!
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:19 AM
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I swore I'd never get into the "X" vs. "X" discussion. It always boils down to "different strokes," but....

I have only one comment. [And keep in mind that I carry both calibers in question on a 50/50 basis]

If, as stated, one shouldn't blame the 45 for misses while under fire, and [as I can certainly say from experience] you get a little wild when people are shooting at you, no matter how practiced you are....

Doesn't that just support the idea of capacity being just a little more important than first thought?

If after all, you're bound to miss...shouldn't you have more rounds to make up for the inevitable "freak out factor?"


I'm not sayin'....I'm just saying...


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Old 04-01-2011, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman45 View Post
I maintain that a person get accurate with practice. It does not matter if you use a .380, a 9mm or a .500.

Police officers are notorious for not shooting their sidearms until it is time to qualify. They do not practice as a general rule.

I shoot a .45acp 2-3 times weekly and can hit whatever I am aiming at and I am fairly accurate with point shooting. I did not get this way because I shoot a .45acp but rather I practice with the .45acp.
I would have to agree.

Besides, I've never seen a Sig P220 that wasn't dead nuts accurate.
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:58 AM
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We all see the impossible shots on TV and in the movies that the good guys seem to make unfailingly. Snap shots from the ground level at folks on a roof 50 yards away and the like with a snub nosed revolver or such - Hollywood baloney; but as several have already said - if you want to shoot well you have to shoot A LOT.

Shooting is like any other physical endeavor as far as the muscle memory, visual cues, balance and familiarity by repetition. Ask an NFL quarterback or a MLB pitcher how accurate they are if they don't throw a ball for three months.

Yet, MOST folks, not just cops, seem to think that in a life and death situation where the targets are actually shooting back they will be able to perform that which they would have difficulty doing well under range conditions under less time constraints, not to mention less stress. (as an aside I am constantly amazed at the bragging about shots people claim to be able to make under time constraints and distances - even when they are ON the range where it could be verified; when asked to demonstrate such amazing skills they always seem to have a reason why they cannot do it at that particular place and time but still cling to the notion that they have done it and could do it again if only they had their own gun, or their own reloads, or whatever ).

I've always maintained most people CAN'T shoot. At least not as well as the general population tends to believe. IN MY EXPERIENCE the AVERAGE gun owner spends very little time (if any) in actual practice and working on the fundamentals even if the individual practices regular concealed carry for self defense. They just don't. Those here who shoot weekly or even monthly and expend any significant number of rounds are the exception rather than the rule. This extends to police officers as well. I've known many that only shot their sidearms when required to by their departments for qualification purposes, whether quarterly, semi-annually, or annually. And that usually consisted of no more than 50 to 100 rounds at those times.

Thankfully, in the last 25 to 30 years there seem to be many more "survival oriented" officers on the streets that do pay attention to weapon choice and marksmanship, but looking at the big picture I would stand by my above comments.

If you want to do something well, you must do it often. If you want to do something exceptionally well, you must do it constantly. Shooting is no different from anything else in that regard.

That the officer in the original post hit 3 for 8 at 35 yards while under return fire and was using a major caliber handgun is actually pretty good performance. Add the luck and the fact that he went home and the scumbag went to the morgue, hard to argue with the results. As far as his switching to the 9MM, in a case like this officer, I would tend to take the view it's more the singer than the song. He will do as well or better with a 9MM because it appears he's more comfortable with it and I would wager he PRACTICES religiously.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:07 AM
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To each his own for their own reasons. I don't second guess why people carry what they do but I can understand this cop's choice.

I've carried .45ACP, .40S&W, 357SIG, and 9mm in Glocks, H&Ks, S&Ws, and 1911s on duty. The one I have finally settled on as my absolute go to for duty carry, off duty, night stand, you name it this is the one I'm grabbing gun is...drum roll please...a 9mm 1911. I know, I know - heretic, blasphemer, yada yada yada - but I shoot my S&W SW1911 9mm Pro Series better and faster than any handgun I've ever owned and I'm confident that if I have to shoot something I can hit it with this gun. I've shot both it and my worked over Springfield Loaded .45 in the same matches, same courses of fire, same gear, just switching guns and mags, and I am consistently faster and more accurate with the 9mm than the .45. I have an alloy framed CCO size 9mm 1911 that I carry off duty for consistency of platform and caliber. It works for me!
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:28 AM
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I carried a .45 for years, both on and off duty. I was good with it, as I practiced, and my practice was revealed when I always maxed out the semi-annual qualifications, much to the chagrin of some of the younger guys.
However, I now carry a 9mm and I'm very comfortable with its, and my, ability to defend myself. To me, my comfort level is much more important than any debate on ballistic differences between 9mm and .45ACP.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tom turner View Post
Many folks just plink with their handguns, but when they must keep up a sustained rate of fire under stress they may discover their gun twists out of their grip too . . . and thus causes them to not shoot well. I surely learned my lesson!
Good point. If you can't get it back on target for the second shot of a double tap, you need to rethink your choice. I practice double taps with my "carry" guns while hoping I'll never have the need to use the skill in real life.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:48 AM
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Pecos, because in dozens of cases, it works just exactly as well as a .45 or any other handgun round. Shot placement and adequate penetration are what you need to effect a stop - dozens of other things may get you a stop, but these are the only two consistent things in the now more than 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:11 AM
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From the outside looking in:

Cold and clinically, if one reviews the details of the original post, it sounds like the issue, if any, is that more practice is what would have improved his shots-to-hits ratio. Caliber is irrelevant.

Now, factoring in all the real world stuff that's ABSENT in the cold and clinical approach, a grenade is thrown, heartily and handily, in the middle of it all. Mental stress level, adrenalyn, physical condition...y'know...not to mention that at the time, YOU'RE BRING FIRED ON!!!...

I've never exchanged fire with anyone so to monday-morning-Qback about this would be no more than attempting an exercise in self-validation.

I must honestly say, however, that I'd be a little squirrelly about downsizing from my .45. BUT once again, I've never been there so my concerns are based on theory only.


Hmmm...

Glad the encounter ended the way it did, regardless.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:03 PM
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I'm totally unqualified to proffer any carry advice to anyone. As for myself, I fould myself flinching with my Beretta 40. I acquired a Beretta 92 and even with Winchester Ranger +P's, it is totally manageable. In my case, precise shot placement whether in DA or SA mode is a MAJOR confidence builder. While on active duty, we did extensive work with the Beretta in DA mode. We would shoot a round, decock, lower the weapon and reengage in DA mode. This was to get the newbies accustomed to the DA trigger. If people have ultimate confidence in themselves with a 1911, Glock, M&P, Beretta or whatever, that, to me is the best gauge of weapon handling ability.
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:31 PM
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I'm glad that we had quite a bit of latitude as to what we could carry in my day. As a card-carrying dinosaur (and instructor) I stayed with a
4" .357 right up to the end. I never could shoot the SIG 220 all that well and the Glock 17 wasn't my thing either. For some reason I shoot the Sigma (S&W's Glock) pretty well. OTOH the 1911 platform was a first love--but not authorized.

I agree that different people handle different weapons better and worse. We should make allowances for it within reason and take advantage of it. On qualification days I had to haul out .45, 9mm and .357 ammo, and everybody shot what he liked. There were still some pistoleros in those days and oddly enough the level of proficiency was pretty darned good.

I have my preference (ok, BIASES) but if somebody can get results with the gun and caliber of his preferences, I am not going to sneer at his choice. He might be the "cowboy in the continental suit" to my great embarassment.
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Steve View Post
A lot of folks who question 9mm effectiveness seem to be locked in a time warp. In case they hadn't noticed 9mm and every other round out there, has gotten better over the years (you gotta love technology). I can't even count how many choices you have just in 9mm. Thirty years ago...not so much, but then how big was your cell phone 30 years ago??? Just about every LE agency in the country carried 9mm for years as they all migrated from wheel guns and many still do. That's good enough for me but largely because 9mm (in my case an MP9c), is what I shoot best. As always....YMMV.
I carry Winchester JHP +P loads in my Browning and while I wouldn't ever shoot it as a steady diet, anything that puts a short cartirdige like the 9mm on a par with a .357 Magnum...and with 14 shots to boot...is something in its favor.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:46 PM
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I carry either a SIG 220 in .45, a Glock G17, Ruger SR9, or EMP 9mm. Happy and confident with all. No problem with either caliber. Probably why I've never owned a .40, I don't see a reason!

Oh yeah, I also carry and like the .38 special, .357 magnum, and 10mm. But none of those is a daily carry, more special purpose such as deep conceal or woods hiking.

Carry what you shoot best!
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by venomballistics View Post
9MM I think of as a last resort.
start big and work down till you have something that works for you ... if it happens to be a 9MM .. then I guess it's better than fists.
Having worked 100+ Officer shooting along with a far share of homicides, 9mm will almost always get the job done. Today's torso recovered modern SD Ammo are bt a nickel and a dime in size and doing 9-11". Always worked for me?
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Pecos, because in dozens of cases, it works just exactly as well as a .45 or any other handgun round. Shot placement and adequate penetration are what you need to effect a stop - dozens of other things may get you a stop, but these are the only two consistent things in the now more than 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on.
I'd like a more detailed explanation on why you ditched the 40 entirely. My reason is that as an instructor I have a LOT of people (Mostly women) say "I'm new to armed self defense, what do you recommend?". What follows is a VERY detailed evaluation on my part. After verifying the student's mindset and teaching basics with a 22, I try to get the student into the largest, most powerful gun they can handle reliably (Read: They feel comfortable with). This usually entails their using a pistol/revolver from my accumulation. The 40 does have operational disadvantages for most new shooters, but some take to it like a duck to water.
I'm just curious if 'Im missing some aspect here.
P.S. I've carried a 45 ACP 1911 for 35+ years and now have the resulting back problems. I'm going to switch to a 45c M&P (8 ozs lighter) or a 40c M&P (14 ozs lighter- feels like nothin').
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:21 AM
ImprovedModel56Fan ImprovedModel56Fan is offline
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I not only think that the OP's friend did the right thing, based on HIS experience and evaluation, I think I may have even lucked into understanding it. The 220 is not such a small gun. It may not fit his hand as well as the 226. Even the 226 is marginal for me.

I generally try to carry a gun that I shoot well, and I'll probably never have to use it. I can certainly sympathize with an LEO who is trying to do the same thing.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:27 AM
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Zombie thread.

With modern defensive ammo, service calibers from .38 to .45 have a lot more in common than not.

What the heck's a "feebie"?
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: OP. Good for him. Bullets are not magic. They make holes. Put holes in the right places and people fall down. Not impressed with the idea of a handgun bullet shocking anyone except at hard off the muzzle distances. Lots of very effective 9mm loads available. A Sig 226 w/ quality ammo would easily be a first round draft pick for just about any possible eventuality. Same with a .40 S&W... excellent round. As well, the 9mm and to a lesser extent the .40 offer higher capacity in common pistols. In the op, the officer emptied his 220... a 226 or G-17 would have still be running.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:35 AM
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What the heck's a "feebie"?
FBI agent.
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Old 12-03-2013, 11:39 AM
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I'd like a more detailed explanation on why you ditched the 40 entirely.
My ditching of the .40 was primarily because I'm a longtime handloader and I noted that my (not crazy) .40 handloads (while accurate and powerful) indicated that they were operating at pressures that were right at the edge of the envelope. There's no need for that - the 9 works just as well, holds more and is far cheaper (still not bothering to load it, because I have so much inexpensive commercial stuff), and the .45 is a wonderful low pressure round to shoot and load.

The local Secret Service boys are on the same floor as me here at work - they're all perfectly content with their SIG-Sauer 229s . . . and the cases and cases of taxpayer-funded ammo that they get to practice with. The .40 works fine - but a cost/benefit analysis of the round takes it right out of contention for me.

I'm sure lots of people take to the .40 like a duck to water. While I know a number of people complain about their perception of its felt-recoil as compared to the 9/.45, I never found it to be an issue (same with the .357 SIG). But its street performance doesn't appear in any way different from 9 or .45 (unlike the .357 SIG's, which I'm told has better barrier-defeating performance than the others and thus is appropriate for folks needing such), and it holds fewer than the 9, and it's trickier to load than the .45 (but costs as much retail) . . .

Anyhow, do what you like: I'm not advocating for anyone to do anything - and I only write this because I was asked directly.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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I would have to agree.

Besides, I've never seen a Sig P220 that wasn't dead nuts accurate.
Yep. Hate to say it but my P229 drives nails a heck a lot better than my smith's, my Glocks, Berettas and 1911s. Most accurate gun I own. 10x more than I am anyway. Sounds like the guy in the story had adrenaline shock. Hence the 3 of 8......not the gun. It's the user lol

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Old 12-03-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by magtf388 View Post
Having worked 100+ Officer shooting along with a far share of homicides, 9mm will almost always get the job done. Today's torso recovered modern SD Ammo are bt a nickel and a dime in size and doing 9-11". Always worked for me?
and that is why it is the last resort.
it is as small as you can go without losing all faith in it.

What a not so gently used bullet does not tell us is how long it took to work.
A bullet that made a perfect pop and drop looks identical to the one pulled out of the guy who just kept charging forth.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:12 PM
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I was deployed to Iraq with an Army LTC who is an ordnance expert and worked on the new main battle rifle. He now works for Remington. He told me that with modern self defense 9mm ammo you will never be under gunned.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:15 PM
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A carry gun & ammo combo is the same as any other of the choices we make in life, a compromise.

Big & slow, light & fast, more powerful but less of them, easier to shoot but less effective, etc. I guess the choice is an individual thing since everybody's abilities and needs are all different.
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:36 PM
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It's the man, not the machine.
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A mans got to know his limitations.
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Whatever you use, use it well!
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Pecos, because in dozens of cases, it works just exactly as well as a .45 or any other handgun round. Shot placement and adequate penetration are what you need to effect a stop - dozens of other things may get you a stop, but these are the only two consistent things in the now more than 200 handgun killing cases I've worked on.
There's a lot of wisdom and valuable experience in the above quote. It mirrors my own personal observations and those of many others who have "been there".

Three hits out of 8 - under fire is damn fine shooting. Locally the "thin blue line" was recently confronted by an armed suspect, two Officers fired over 40 rounds and got 3 non fatal hits that subdued the offender. Sadly this is pretty typical marksmanship. Back in "revolver days" the shoot to hit ratio was better as the revolvers could only hold 6 rounds.

I'd say if that ex-cop is happier with a 9 than a .40 or .45, let him have it. He's proved himself!
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Old 12-03-2013, 02:58 PM
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While in the hospital delivering my third child with my misses. We were over the meat wagon delivery rooms driveway. The nurses ran into our room as a guy was being dragged out of the back seat of a car. After being shot 5 times in the gut with a 45acp.
He lived. I was ccw a 1911a1 in 45acp at the time. I ordered those soup bowel Speer 45cal 200gr JHP' s and pumped them to the max. That was 35 years ago.

I'm a lot smarter now and educated. It's knowing your handgun up close and personal. It's practice, practice, practice till you can hit anything at 25yds.

I picked up a used norinco 1911 for $300. I found the barrel bushing was loose on the barrel but also more loose in the slide.
I picked up a $59 New surplus 45acp barrel and a $12 national match barrel bushing and I went to work. I fitted everything and added the FLGR Kit with the 18# recoil spring for $9. My low budget build is ready to test fire. I found out it cycles faster because of the less over travel. She pops out the rounds way faster than its stock form. She's like a race 1911 now. I loaded the 8rd mag with Russian wolf 45acp ball ammo. At 25yds she shoots one three shot clover leaf per 8rd mag even with the loose slide to frame rail fit. Since then I added a disconnector ramp too.

Using the full length guide rod kit keeps all the recoil spring forces within the centerline of the frame and slide. With the 18# spring installed without the guide rod I can hear the spring binding as I pull back the slide slowly by hand. With the guide rod there is no noise.

When I'm not carrying my s&w m58 I'm packing my norc 1911. She constantly shoots clover leafs. I trust it. I do like having the power of a magnum with me most of the time.

She shoots clover leafs no matter who shoots it. I guess I did a good job on my first fitting.

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Old 12-03-2013, 06:43 PM
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which would kill you more dead a center mass hit with a .45 or a 9mm-placement and penetration being equal. If there is no difference-then I'm going with the 9 cause it's cheaper and I have more opportunities (17 vs 8) to shoot you before I run out of bullets.
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Old 12-03-2013, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Interesting. FWIW, after working on about 100 handgun killing cases, I switched back to a 9mm. I have a .45, but I don't carry it hardly at all. (And I ditched the .40 entirely . . . .)

Great read, amigo; thanks!
Was there anything about those cases that influenced you?
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