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08-13-2011, 10:44 PM
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Is there a short and powerful .38 cartridge?
The .38 Special case is not nearly full of powder.
Is there a short .38 cartridge packed full of high power powder and a strong short cylinder snub nose revolver to go with it?
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08-13-2011, 10:53 PM
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Sounds like the 9mm Federal which was a 9x19 round with a rim, certainly loaded to higher pressure than a standard .38 S&W Special. I don't know if it was available with a range of bullet weights but it flopped bigger than New Coke. Charter Arms and maybe one or two other companies chambered revolvers for it and anyone unlucky enough to own one will have a difficult time finding ammo.
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08-13-2011, 10:58 PM
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Why not a short .38 packed with a punch?
I bet you could even put it in a four shot cylinder with a striker instead of a hammer and have a real pocket rocket.
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08-13-2011, 11:00 PM
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There's a couple options available. You can look around and try to find a 940. These were a J frame in 9x19mm. You really need want to use the moonclips with one if at all possible. Or you can look around and find a 547, which if memory serves, could be had with a 3" bbl and a RB. This was a K frame in 9x19mm, no moon clips required.
Or you can buy one the current Charter Arms revolvers in an auto pistol caliber. I don't know if they've got around to 9mm yet or how widely distributed they are, but they'll be cheaper than either of the above relatively rare S&W offerings.
Or you can get an old .38 S&W (not special) top break and chop the bbl. Get it duracoated or something and fit some J frame grips on it. Load it up with either some 200 gr loads or else via the time tried expedient of backwards loaded hollowbase wadcutters. That should be relatively cheap to have done. (They also came in snub versions originally, but those cost more.) The resulting chop job, exp if you used a hammerless version, will actually be smaller and handier than a J frame. I've got one of these conversions 90 percent completed myself, just need to fit a new front sight post.
Or you can do what most everyone else does and carry a .380 auto or smaller (roughly J frame size) 9mm auto.
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08-13-2011, 11:19 PM
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627 in .38 Super.
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08-13-2011, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epj
627 in .38 Super.
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Ah, but like the revolvers people get converted to fire 9x19mm (that were originally .38s or .357s), that doesn't really shrink the size of the cylinder. Shrinking the cylinder size - by using a shorter ctg - would seem to be the reasoning behind this idea as a theoretical pocket pistol. A conversion or purpose built revolver in .38 Super can load faster via moon clips, but it won't really be any smaller than one in .357 mag.
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08-14-2011, 01:52 AM
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It's a 9mm Luger.
Or better, 9x23 Winchester
Or the .38 Super
Remember, the .38 Special was developed when they needed all that room for black powder.
As for the 9x19 revolver, it's been done...
Last edited by Fishslayer; 08-14-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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08-14-2011, 06:00 AM
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.38 S&W is naught to sneeze at. I had an I frame snub little HE in that caliber. Why I sold that gun is a mystery of my continued stupidity.
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08-14-2011, 06:44 AM
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A couple of thoughts.
One, a shortened 38 spl. casing designed and loaded to 9mm pressures would allow a bit more barrel length in a snubby with a short cylinder. However, it would present major problems with "capturing" a market share because the 38 spl. pocket guns are such a large force on the market. Instead it would be much more logical to design and build a revolver around the 9mm parabellum or even the 9mm Kurz (380). That way you aren't faced with trying to build acceptance for a new caliber, you use one that is already well established.
As for a 4 shot revolver permitting a smaller cylinder, I'm not sure that is possible. You have to keep in mind that you still need a cylinder large enough to allow a center pivot pin, gas ring, and the diameter of the cartridge. I suspect that would require a cylinder of the same size as what we have now in the J frame which allows 5 rounds of a 9mm sized caliber in this space. Realistically, the only way I see building a revolver with a smaller diameter cylinder is by shrinking the caliber, such as what NAA does with their 22 caliber revolvers.
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08-14-2011, 09:56 AM
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Seems to me to be a solution looking for a problem. Maybe I'm missing something, but giving up rounds to gain a little more power doesn't make sense, especially in light of the typical use of such a pistol which is close range encounters.
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08-14-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticSire
Seems to me to be a solution looking for a problem. Maybe I'm missing something, but giving up rounds to gain a little more power doesn't make sense, especially in light of the typical use of such a pistol which is close range encounters.
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Very well put.
I was just musing on how to get a higher powered thinner revolver.
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08-14-2011, 10:39 AM
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I would rather see them make the 940 again.
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08-14-2011, 11:11 AM
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The .38 S&W if you have the right gun and are willing to handload. I have got a 145 gr. SWC up to 980 fps out of a 1970's Regulation Police and 1100 fps out of a Ruger.
The .38 S&W can actually be a very efficient round, but it is underloaded by the factories because of all of the top breaks out there. Many of them from the blackpowder era.
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08-14-2011, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishslayer
Remember, the .38 Special was developed when they needed all that room for black powder.
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Uuuh, I have another one of my stupid questions. I thought the 38 Special was developed to replace the 38 Colt sometime after the turn of the 20th century which is WELL into the smokeless powder era. Am I wrong in this? I was taught that the 38 Special was a smoke less powder cartridge. Am I mistaken?
Also seems if you need more power from a 38 get a 357.
Pecos, who is confused. (Page 290 of the current "Cartridges fo the World".)
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08-14-2011, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecos Bill
Uuuh, I have another one of my stupid questions. I thought the 38 Special was developed to replace the 38 Colt sometime after the turn of the 20th century which is WELL into the smokeless powder era. Am I wrong in this? I was taught that the 38 Special was a smoke less powder cartridge. Am I mistaken?
Also seems if you need more power from a 38 get a 357.
Pecos, who is confused. (Page 290 of the current "Cartridges fo the World".)
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I believe it was 1898 & originally used black powder. At any rate, the .38SP does indeed trace it's roots to the Colt cartridge.
I think the point of the OP is a shorter cartridge so you can get a powerful .38 in a more compact package.
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08-14-2011, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
Very well put.
I was just musing on how to get a higher powered thinner revolver.
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Ah, well, there you have it. It is an interesting idea even in the absence of any perceived benefit. Something similar to the COP 357 but with a cylinder and single barrel.
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08-14-2011, 08:10 PM
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A problem complicating the original poster's idea hasn't been mentioned. Unless we're strictly talking about a reloading project, a high pressure short .38 cartridge would have to be dimensioned in such a way that it could not be inserted into an old, weak .38 special.
For reloaders, the short brass already exists, just not the extra short cylindered revolvers. I have reloaded both the .38 Short and Long Colt cartridges, but just as fun projects. .38 Long Colt brass gets some use by match shooters because in theory they eject faster than the longer .38 special brass.
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08-14-2011, 08:41 PM
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NKJ nut has proposed the easiest solution to the question. The 38 S&W cartridge has the case capacity and the potential as he said, just not reached in factory loadings only because of so many older, weaker guns including top breaks chambered for it.
And the I frame 38 S&W snubnose is the gun. It's a modern 5 shot firearm with the needed strength for a hot loaded 38 S&W. Made from c. 1949 to 1960, the cylinder and the frame is an 1/8" shorter with a little savings in weight from the J frame, but it won't be any thinner. If you get the pre 1953 model with round butt, you'll save an additional 3/16" in the grip frame length and a little more weight.
So the gun and cartridge exist if you reload.
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08-14-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bushmaster1313
The .38 Special case is not nearly full of powder.
Is there a short .38 cartridge packed full of high power powder and a strong short cylinder snub nose revolver to go with it?
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No...............Jay
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08-14-2011, 09:10 PM
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First thing I thought of after reading the thread title.. .357 SIG.
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08-15-2011, 02:17 AM
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.38 Short Colt- about the shortest of the bunch, and can be loaded to 9mm velocities.
However, there is no reason to have a round shorter than .38 special or .357 magnum, because there are no guns to take advantage of a shorter cartridge.
The closest you will likely get is the new Taurus 380IB revolver which essentially, a J-frame that's been shrunk a little and the cylinder shaved to fit .380 ACP.
There really isn't a way to put a cartridge with a bullet diameter of .358 in a double action revolver any smaller. A diminutive single shot derringer- perhaps.
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Last edited by Andy Griffith; 08-15-2011 at 02:19 AM.
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357 magnum, 380, 547, 627, 940, cartridge, coke bottle grips, colt, hammerless, j frame, k frame, round butt, ruger, sig arms, snubby, snubnose, taurus |
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