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  #51  
Old 08-17-2011, 05:14 PM
jtpur jtpur is offline
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While I believe that most government pensions need changing, as well as social security, here is my two cents on military pensions.

Military personnel can retire after 20 years of active duty.
Twenty years of active duty is like a 40 year civillian carrear because;
Folks in the military work as many hours a day as it takes, and this can mean 24/7....try going to sleep in a combat zone while some guy with an AK is lobbing rounds at you or zeroing in with mortars or rpgs.
9 months at sea or more at a time
family separation for months and even years at a time
minimal pay for maximum danger
moving every two years whether you want to our not.
being stationed in exoctic places with emenities like latrines, cold showers, packaged food, secnic views of snow, sand, jungle, mountain tops, desserts and other such lovely places.
getting to pick up litter while dressed in hospital pj's and bathrobes.
being medically cleared from wounds sustained in combat so you can go back into combat and get killed.
2,3 4, 5 six or more tours of combat
No thanks, let them keep their 20 year retirement and lets up the pay to 75% rather than 50% I am all for balancing the budget and a balanced budget amendment, but lets leave the only people that make this place the land of the free alone. I did my three years of hell and I could not imagine staying in for 20 or more......They deserve it and they earned it.
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  #52  
Old 08-17-2011, 05:34 PM
deralte deralte is offline
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I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. I signed on during the Korean War and was paid the huge amount of $78.00 each month, minus taxes. After serving all over the world to include a tour in Korea and Vietnam I retired in 1976 as a MSGT with 24 years of service and was making $15,000 per year. The equivalent position in civilian life was $28,000. I think I earned ever penny they have paid me. I would gladly do the same thing if I was a youngster facing no job except for the coal mines of WV.
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  #53  
Old 08-17-2011, 07:39 PM
feralmerril feralmerril is offline
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Herknav and daveh75. Either you read something I didnt write or had a knee jerk reaction and didnt finish reading. NOWHERE did I write that service retires should lose money! In fact, quite the opposite. Anytime someone will match 16.5 of my wages for saveings I would go for it! That is 33% of my money being invested to grow without tax factor untill I pull it out at a old age and then first taxed like wages as I draw it. The person can risk it in stocks or if they dont want to gamble at all put it money market funds or whatever. Were you to do the math I bet you would find you would be faaar ahead at 20 years than any retirement as is. Look, did I not write that guys that quit before 20 have zip? With a 401k they would have a lot! I say that plan would cost the goverment far more than paying retirement the way it is. That is if everyone would use it. Now it just might be that they are gambeling on the fact that many or most servicemen wouldnt take full advantage of it. Now sure, if a dog face was stupid enough to not save anything, that would be cheaper for the war department. 16.5 % + 16.5% (extra free money) =
33% going untaxed will beat retirement 4 ways from sunday everytime! If you croak 2 months after retirement the goverment is off the hook, right? With a 401K your family would probley get at least $500,000 to even a million if the stock market did right. Do the math! In fact, if they would let you use a roth ira, and I dont see why they wouldnt, that effectively would be even better! As I read the proposal, a person would be far ahead with the plan than as is now, and it would cost the goverment more!
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  #54  
Old 08-17-2011, 07:52 PM
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The pension issue is not based on; nor does it have anything to do with how hard one works. It has to do with the fact that you are putting yourself in the position of going to war.
You give up your civil rights, the choice of where to live, basicly get paid diddly, put up with all kinds of hardships, you cant change jobs any time you want because you don't like your new boss, nevermind the joy of haircuts, uniform inspections, and being property. (before you argue that last one, read the military enlistment contract.)
Well just to throw another wrench in the works...the committee that came up with this brilliant idea also is considering reducing pay for people in non-combat jobs...and reducing retirement rates for those who haven't deployed...while I sorta agree with the latter the first is totally rediculous...everyone has a job that makes the military work, if we are going to start paying based upon MOS well then we might as well disband the military and hire Xe...
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Old 08-17-2011, 08:08 PM
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Well just to throw another wrench in the works...the committee that came up with this brilliant idea also is considering reducing pay for people in non-combat jobs...and reducing retirement rates for those who haven't deployed...while I sorta agree with the latter the first is totally rediculous...everyone has a job that makes the military work, if we are going to start paying based upon MOS well then we might as well disband the military and hire Xe...
In this regard, the pay is too low to cut anyone, I would be for a SUBSTANTIAL increase to those who are deployed. This is really pissing me off. Everyone goes about care free in their lives and the only people who sacrifice are the Military and their families.
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  #56  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:14 PM
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Herknav and daveh75. Either you read something I didnt write or had a knee jerk reaction and didnt finish reading. NOWHERE did I write that service retires should lose money! In fact, quite the opposite. Anytime someone will match 16.5 of my wages for saveings I would go for it! That is 33% of my money being invested to grow without tax factor untill I pull it out at a old age and then first taxed like wages as I draw it. The person can risk it in stocks or if they dont want to gamble at all put it money market funds or whatever. Were you to do the math I bet you would find you would be faaar ahead at 20 years than any retirement as is. Look, did I not write that guys that quit before 20 have zip? With a 401k they would have a lot! I say that plan would cost the goverment far more than paying retirement the way it is. That is if everyone would use it. Now it just might be that they are gambeling on the fact that many or most servicemen wouldnt take full advantage of it. Now sure, if a dog face was stupid enough to not save anything, that would be cheaper for the war department. 16.5 % + 16.5% (extra free money) =
33% going untaxed will beat retirement 4 ways from sunday everytime! If you croak 2 months after retirement the goverment is off the hook, right? With a 401K your family would probley get at least $500,000 to even a million if the stock market did right. Do the math! In fact, if they would let you use a roth ira, and I dont see why they wouldnt, that effectively would be even better! As I read the proposal, a person would be far ahead with the plan than as is now, and it would cost the goverment more!
The government already has something called TSP, Thrift Savings Plan, but the military is the only federal entity that does not match your input...TSP like a 401(K) invests that money in stocks, money markets, etc...so they have this already in place. What this new program is saying is this: thanks for your service, but we aren't going to pay you what we promised, but hey we will match your contribution in this plan we already have but by the way don't expect that paycheck every month that we ALL agreed on. And further like I replied to another poster they want to reduce the pay for people in non-combat jobs, yet one of our former Chiefs of Staff recognized that there is no such thing as "non-combat" personnel in a war zone and thus created an entirely new award to recognize that...but since you mentioned math...in 2009 the Office of Management and Budget records that the federal government spent 533 billion for income security (welfare) which equated to 12% of the federal budget. Last year DoD spent 50 billion on retirement and health care...now I am going to use some of that KALIFORNIA liberal math and tell you that 50 billion is about 1/10 compared to the amount(spent on welfare) from the federal budget...so tell me again why we should scrap the old plan and go with this new one....granted you state it cost more money for the gov but the whole thesis behind this little exercise in government math is that we need to reduce the federal budget and we are going to do this by cutting what DoD spends...BTW if you take the pension that was promised for 20 years and tell the service member that the government is going to invest their money in stocks, bonds, etc...but that they can't touch it until 65....we ARE loosing money...but that there is just me and some of that good ole' Republic of Texas (ya'll call it a state)public school math...bottom line: I don't think anyone can honestly say that if they walked into work tomorrow and were told "BTW we are changing your retirement and you won't see a dime of it until you are 65...but you still have to be outta here at 20 years (38 for most soldiers)...." you wouldn't be mad?
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  #57  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:22 PM
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In this regard, the pay is too low to cut anyone, I would be for a SUBSTANTIAL increase to those who are deployed. This is really pissing me off. Everyone goes about care free in their lives and the only people who sacrifice are the Military and their families.
What we pay the junior enlisted who are married is shameful. As a company commander, I had soldiers with families living off post who qualified for food stamps because the pay was so low. Even for deployed troops, the family separation pay and combat pay doesn't come close to compensating them for what their families go through. Just once I'd like to see these politicians have to be a survivor assistance officer.
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  #58  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:58 PM
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I doubt they could change the retirement thing for servicemen currently in, they would be grandfathered. I could see them trying it for recruits at some date in the future. The age isnt 65, its 58 1/2 for all these iras and 401k type plans. Still, its not fair for a person to put in any time without compensation, and I suppose quite a few do two or three hitchs, get out for whatever persnnal reason and dont have a dime comeing. With a 401K, they would be able to get out and have a sizeable nest egg.
I dont have a clue what the current pay is for the various services and ranks are. When I first hired in to lockheed as a security guard in 1965 they wanted only retired leo & military for the most part and I was told by the chief I was about the first that wasnt. Shortly after that everything changed politicaly with the equal rights stuff. We had close to 250 guards back then and not one female on the department. Soon, there must have been 30% or so. For the factory workers in aircraft it is/was like picking grapes. Most employees had worked at maybe three or four various aircraft factorys as contracts came and went. They might work at lockheed 3 different times and northrupt, boeing and douglas in between in 30 years. For them everyone wanted a good 401K, because they rolled it over every time they switched jobs. A serviceman getting out before 20 has zip. That aint right!
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  #59  
Old 08-17-2011, 09:35 PM
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Cutting retirement pay of the military is one of the last places that should be touched. I got out of the Navy at the end of WW2 and worked for the AF for 30 plus years. The lives of those in the AF or any branch of the service belong to that branch of the service and no one else and a lot of unnecessary problems and misery can go with it.

Cut off the billions that we give our enemies as a first start in any reductions.
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  #60  
Old 08-17-2011, 09:37 PM
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I joined the Army in 1979, the factory I worked in laid me off and I didn't like factory work anyway. I went to FT. Benning and received my training. I enjoyed it very much but as one poster said I knew married men with children even back then that could not afford to buy food and yet welfre mothers could get more money for each child. And I now hear the same thing is happening again I find that shameful.

I was sent to Korea and didn't complain much, then Kentucky to Ft. Campbell where I had a great time and then off to Berlin and then back to the states in 1992 I was an 11B NCO in an over strength MOS and the Army and the president said the cold war was over and they didn't need all of us anymore so i took what was then called the VSI and got out.

I would have stayed but since I was out right told I would never see SFC no mattr what i did I started a second career and now the Govenor of our state is doing pretty much the same as the federal government.

The men and women who joined the military and then stayed for a career did so for many reasons, but they stayed and were made a promise by the government and that promise should be kept.

I don't have much respect for politicians who sit on their butts and collect money from us and whomever they can get to pay them and then try to take the money from those of our nation who sweat and bled to keep it safe.

I know what REMF means and I used jokingly while I was in the Army but in our present situation I don't think there are any REMF's out there anymore.

I loved my time in the Army and mproud I was able to serve.
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  #61  
Old 08-17-2011, 11:36 PM
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This is total and complete B.S.! Who ever thought this up is nothing but a low life.

When I first heard this, I was enraged.....and I still am.

Just shows you the kind of low lifes we have in government now
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:29 AM
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Herknav and daveh75. Either you read something I didnt write or had a knee jerk reaction and didnt finish reading.
Your last line sounded like grumbling to me. I know all about farmers. I grew up as one, and I made the choices I did based on the information available at the time. If I'd had different information, I probably would've made different choices.

As was previously stated, I don't have a problem with the current system because that was the deal, and all parties agreed to it. Those who got out at whatever age knew they were walking away with whatever they had put in the bank.

My issue with this plan is that I don't have 20 years to grow a 401K. I am on the other end of that spectrum. You don't think they'd screw over those who are already in, but I wouldn't put it past them. Most of the proposed initiatives are recycled from as far back as the 1970's.

If there were any leaders in Washington, they'd start by cutting their own pay/benefits. They just want to chip at us first because we have the smallest voting block.
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:42 AM
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How about ending all foreign aid? Cut out that 20 billion that was just promised to Egypt. Disasters? Let citizens individually donate, do not send tax payer money.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:37 PM
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I see no problem going away from a fixed pension for all entering in on or after a fixed date. All other industry has done so.
As far as underpaid, my son went in with a six year committment as an E-3. $20,000 a year + bennies is not bad for a 19 yr old with limited work experience.
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Old 08-18-2011, 02:43 PM
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I see no problem going away from a fixed pension for all entering in on or after a fixed date. All other industry has done so.
As far as underpaid, my son went in with a six year committment as an E-3. $20,000 a year + bennies is not bad for a 19 yr old with limited work experience.
I see some pretty nice cars at the car wash on MCAS Miramar. I guess after making the payment all they can afford to do is wash it.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:45 PM
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Let me take another shot at this, I seem to be missing my target.

It is not or should not be a question of how much pension the Military get at the time of retirement. Nor should it have any effect upon those nearing retirement.

This is, or at least should be, a question of how and where contributions are made and who owns the amount contributed.

For most government positions at all levels the money for retirement is paid from a “fund” in most cases the fund is a fiction, and the money comes from what is called the “general fund” in the case of the Feds. So it is paid out of current receipts and/or borrowed.

So what someone is proposing is that a 401k or 403b individual program be set-up for the military and I would hope most of the rest of the Fed employees as well.

The money in this type of fund belongs to the individual. Usually these funds have some discretionary features, that is, there is a match to what you contribute up to a max. and there are limitations on when you can draw the money. Since old age and retirement is not unforeseen, God Welling we will all get there, some planning is in order.

When I was in the military I earned zip toward retirement, my first three jobs out of school, also zip (except SS) had there been a 401 plan available I would now be much better off.

Because the future out 50-80 years is uncertain, I think we would all be better off in defined contribution plans where we own the investment.

Frankly I do not trust the politicians; they are the ultimate deciders as to what the “benefits” are under the current plans.
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Old 08-18-2011, 04:50 PM
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Let me take another shot at this, I seem to be missing my target.

It is not or should not be a question of how much pension the Military get at the time of retirement. Nor should it have any effect upon those nearing retirement.

This is, or at least should be, a question of how and where contributions are made and who owns the amount contributed.

For most government positions at all levels the money for retirement is paid from a “fund” in most cases the fund is a fiction, and the money comes from what is called the “general fund” in the case of the Feds. So it is paid out of current receipts and/or borrowed.

So what someone is proposing is that a 401k or 403b individual program be set-up for the military and I would hope most of the rest of the Fed employees as well.

The money in this type of fund belongs to the individual. Usually these funds have some discretionary features, that is, there is a match to what you contribute up to a max. and there are limitations on when you can draw the money. Since old age and retirement is not unforeseen, God Welling we will all get there, some planning is in order.

When I was in the military I earned zip toward retirement, my first three jobs out of school, also zip (except SS) had there been a 401 plan available I would now be much better off.

Because the future out 50-80 years is uncertain, I think we would all be better off in defined contribution plans where we own the investment.

Frankly I do not trust the politicians; they are the ultimate deciders as to what the “benefits” are under the current plans.
I agree, but the 401 should be with matching funds paid by the Federal Government. My point is the gov is looking to cut down, they should be looking to improve.
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Old 08-18-2011, 05:04 PM
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The problem for the Feds and other levels of government is that defined contribution plans as the name indicates must be paid into NOW, not just promised in the future.

The upside for us as taxpayers is that we know now what it costs and do not end up with a huge unexpected bill someday down the road, (whops we are broke, everyone must take a cut).
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Old 08-18-2011, 06:00 PM
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I see some pretty nice cars at the car wash on MCAS Miramar. I guess after making the payment all they can afford to do is wash it.
that would be called "flight pay"...
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Old 08-18-2011, 10:21 PM
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I see some pretty nice cars at the car wash on MCAS Miramar. I guess after making the payment all they can afford to do is wash it.
That does not mean they are making good money. It just means they are making the same bad spending decissions that most 18-25 year olds tend to make in the military.
Instead of investing, or buying a house/condo, or some other form of future protecting, they buy cars.

They usually are single, live in the barracks, food from the mess hall. Oh, to go back in time and make smarter decissions.

SO... I don't see how that should affect pensions.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:54 AM
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Why not just scrap the military as we know it, for domestic use have a militia, more or less, for foreign service rely on contractors? Again, the bean counters and quantification quacks have no concept of the importance of traditions and esprit when it comes to the military.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:55 PM
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That does not mean they are making good money. It just means they are making the same bad spending decissions that most 18-25 year olds tend to make in the military.
Instead of investing, or buying a house/condo, or some other form of future protecting, they buy cars.

They usually are single, live in the barracks, food from the mess hall. Oh, to go back in time and make smarter decissions.

SO... I don't see how that should affect pensions.
This may be a good reason for employer contributions to a 401k type plan (or hybrid plan with a pension) that these kids can take with them when they leave the service after a 4 year hitch. When the fancy car wears out and they are struggling in the civilian job market with the rest of us, at least they will have 4 years of employer contributions (hopefully with some employee contributions as well) in the bank to build a retirement on. Currently, as you pointed out, these kids make irresponsible choices and blow their money with nothing to show for their service time except a depreciating vehicle and a unit tatoo. The current military pension system gives these guys with less than 20 years service absolutely nothing.

Scrap all retirement benefits for our military? No!

Come up with something that makes more sense for those who volunteer to serve, as well as the taxpayers who are saddled with trillions of debt? Hopefully that can be done.
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:59 PM
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My folks were super religious, also they were thrifty. Once as a boy I told dad, "Why should I save? You said the lord is comeing back soon!"
I think he said something like hedgeing my bet! Yesterday morning I was gassing up. Probley the most exspendsive new motorhome I ever seen was leaveing pulling a new corvette. Another guy was watching, shakeing his head. I told him we shoulda went to night school!
I had a uncle tell me when he got drafted I think he said the pay was like $30s a month and he sent most that home to grandma! Things sure have changed! I had another uncle that came home screwed up. He just wanted out rather than wait a few extra days to apply for possible medical benifits he said, although he even had two purple hearts. Later on his wounds caught up with him as he aged. He never got a dime or asked for medical as he had his work insurance. There were many like him. Uncle art is about 94 and go`s to the VA hospital all the time, he froze his feet at the bulge and it affects him.
They should have a good 401K that servicemen could put into as most go in for 4 years as said, thats 4 years lost investment or retirement wise that most others get a chance at working for companys etc.
Truth is, in my observations, most of us work at grunt work and jump from job to job for the first 10 years of our working lives until we find our nitch. I have also seen tons of people go to college and end up working at a job that they could have got without the exspendse of college. Also many, many girls go to college, get married and never use the education to get a job. I belive this mindset we are preached to from all sources about "getting a education" is overall, a sham! What it has done is raise the costs of education to where hardley no one can afford it, or go into debt for the next 20 years, plus put a bind on their old parents and/or give them a guilt trip! This country is in huge trouble because we dont produce anything, or very little. You dont need a masters degree to do most "production" jobs. Therefore many in this country now are over educated idiots that cant find a job! Something has to change!
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Old 08-19-2011, 05:41 PM
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Clinton was too late to do that because Jimmah Cahtuh and Stansfield Turner had done already done it.
Doctrine under Jimmy was to delay the soviets until we hit the coast-equipment was old-moral low. Under Bush 1 and Wild Bill, we cut an entire Corps plus- so we went into the current wars with half the Army we had under President R. Smooth move-I guess that's one way to get the Guard and Reserve involved-and give troops a chance at multiple tours. For advocates of screwing around with retirement- tell it to some young NCO who has been blown up-they aren't hard to find. On the other hand I believe in what my first CO told me " I'd soldier for free-as long as my family was taken care of "
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:49 PM
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If we can discuss this without general political carping, it can go on.

If not, it won't go on.
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Old 08-19-2011, 10:18 PM
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This may be a good reason for employer contributions to a 401k type plan (or hybrid plan with a pension) that these kids can take with them when they leave the service after a 4 year hitch. When the fancy car wears out and they are struggling in the civilian job market with the rest of us, at least they will have 4 years of employer contributions (hopefully with some employee contributions as well) in the bank to build a retirement on. Currently, as you pointed out, these kids make irresponsible choices and blow their money with nothing to show for their service time except a depreciating vehicle and a unit tatoo. The current military pension system gives these guys with less than 20 years service absolutely nothing.

Scrap all retirement benefits for our military? No!

Come up with something that makes more sense for those who volunteer to serve, as well as the taxpayers who are saddled with trillions of debt? Hopefully that can be done.
I have to admit that it would be good for them to get something like that without the 20 /30 years.

But they do not get paid enough to make that mandatory.
I guess you could give them all a fixed monitary investment each month in addition to regular pay. Not a percentage, a fixed amount for all ranks. individuals can start to add contributions with increases in pay/rank.

I could probably get behind that.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:11 AM
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The people who run this country think of military personnel no differently than they think of the coal in their blast furnaces. Their kids are too good to serve and the kids who serve and die or are wounded should be honored that they spared "their betters" the duty. When there are no civilian jobs left, there will be plenty of retention. Defined benefit pensions, except for our highest government officials, are doomed as surely as the sun will rise.
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:23 AM
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imo the military is one of the few things left to make me feel secure in this country, why do they have to screw with something that has worked for so long? where to you think these birdbrains would be if whole military just up and quit? canada? istanbul? certainly not on the front lines, they couldn't find there way there!!!!!
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Old 08-20-2011, 06:37 AM
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With some luck it could work better. But then again, just how many 18 year old pfc`s will take advantage of it? Then, on the other hand, how many guys do have a couple hitchs in and get out without any pension at all? Maybe with this they would have something built up already if they opt out early? There is always two sides to the coin.
I like your thinking.
I have two tours in, served 7 years, and with a 401K type system, I could have contributed and got something to roll over into my current plan...

You are correct that young soldiers will not afford to put money in, but the government can entice them by offering "matching funds", much like the old college fund that they offered.

Also, if you have already enlisted under the current method...there is no way in hell that they should change it out from under you!
Let the newbies know the reality, and if they still choose to serve...thank them for sacrificing! (someone's gotta go to war, while the fat cats sit home and get rich)
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Old 08-21-2011, 07:44 PM
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They should have a good 401K that servicemen could put into as most go in for 4 years as said, thats 4 years lost investment or retirement wise that most others get a chance at working for companys etc.
Like I said earlier we have the TSP, which you can put up to 10% of your base pay, plus any bonuses with no matching contribution from the federal government for the uniformed services....this talk about a 401(K) is merely an extention of that with the added benefit of automatic government contributions of 16.5% with the option of the individual putting in 16.5%...it is better than what it is now for folks who don't make a career out of it and it seems that is what is wanted. But the TSP only offers two options: one time tax free interest free loan up to the amount you have in it and the ability to draw it all out at 65 with no penalty...still have to pay taxes, but no penalty. Now if you go into a federal job afterward then it "moves" with you, if you go into the civilian sector than no it sits there...but it is still there.
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Old 08-21-2011, 10:28 PM
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I am a voting US Citizen, I DO NOT WANT MILITARY RETIREMENT CUT, I WANT IT ENHANCED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:12 PM
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The crooks are running the joint and have been for a long time from top to bottom .
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:21 PM
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look at social security-that is paid into by the recipient, Veterans Comp-that is paid to compensate service connected disabilitys- and Social Security Disability, which is the same as regular Social Security for those that have paid in and can no longer work. They are all COLA adjustable, but the Gov "decided" not to follow through with the program, so no COLA on anything that is COLA adjustable now for 3 years. The problem with any of these programs is that they find ways of making these "decisions" and they don't end up helping those that paid for them. I am seeing a time where there is no security in the natural world. The post office used to be a very secure job, but it was just announced that the Gov is firing 120,000 of them. I'm glad I belong to Jesus. Flapjack.
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Old 08-21-2011, 11:56 PM
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When thinking of the men and women in the military past and present words like honesty,Integrity,Accountability,Sacrifice,Courage,Honor,and Trust come to mind but when contemplating the Gov these same words dont apply ... imho ... and what words would you use ??? to describe these two diff groups of people..
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:02 AM
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Patriots vs Thieves?
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:36 AM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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We do not vote on government pensions, only our "representatives" will vote on our behalf and cut this program off at the knees. After all, how many large campaign contributors will it impact?
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Old 08-22-2011, 09:58 AM
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its time that "we the people" start voting on everything. who needs congress...............they dont listen to our wishes anyway. if the budget needs to be cut.................then reduce the fat salaries and perks that all these government desk jockeys are receiving. we wont even mention all the "back door" and "under the table" money that changes hands.
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Old 08-22-2011, 10:53 AM
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Why will people pay many times more than the salary to campaign for office? Is it that they are patriotic and think they know best? Or is it a ego trip, power trip or a means of makeing fortunes in kickbacks etc?
I wish we could come up with a method of elections that had nothing to do with buying votes, charisma, or looks.
Also why should we elect family dynaistys? Do people think that because of their dads, brothers or uncles held office that it qualifys a person over others?
Why should a person need to be super rich to apply? Very few if any, have ever sweated for a dollar in the fields or on a production line.
To me thats a big indication that they can play robin hood without knowing or appriciateing the work and sweat involved as reason for wanting to keep whats yours and not haveing the goverment give your labors to the unworthy.
Certain politicans and party pander to certain offbeat groups that are special intrest and usualy ungodly with undeserved promise`s, lies, anything to get a vote.
I doubt a poor, honest, patriotic, blue collar background person that is born somewhat fat and homely person could ever be elected to high office no matter how smart and how many good idea`s they have!
I would like to see a system where a canadate wasnt allowed to spend a dime of his own money to campaign, rich or poor. But rather backed by his party souley on "where they are comeing from" with their principals and abilitys and for what their party stands for. Also once in office they should have LESS power on critical decisions, but the system be set up where the pros and cons be described by writers from each factions, published and voted on by the populace in some conveniant but honest type ballot`s. I am talking about major decisions like going to war, the recent health bill, and "stymulas" program. I know we have the house`s that vote, but I am talking about a popular vote. Maybe people would quit watching less trash on tv and start watching news to educate themselves to vote their imput on important issues say once bi monthly in a set up fashion.
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Old 08-22-2011, 12:20 PM
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When thinking of the men and women in the military past and present words like honesty,Integrity,Accountability,Sacrifice,Courage,Honor,and Trust come to mind but when contemplating the Gov these same words dont apply ... imho ... and what words would you use ??? to describe these two diff groups of people..
The filters keep turning the words into ****, *****, and ********. So I guess I can't answer this one.
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