I guess just about everyone interested in guns, and especially handguns, is familiar with Jeff Cooper's four rules. The one I'm interested in here is rule number 3: Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

I'm here to tell you that there is plenty of photographic evidence that Cooper, and most Marines of his era, didn't practice what he preached. If you have a copy of 1911: The First 100 Years by Patrick Sweeney, look on page 128. There is a picture of a young Cooper and two more Marines, obviously on a range, with their 1911s pointed almost straight up, like they are waiting for an order to fire. All three have their fingers on the trigger. There is another pretty well known picture of Cooper drawing a 1911 from a shoulder holster. In that picture, the gun has barely cleared the holster, and his finger is on the trigger, or at least inside the trigger guard. Go to this site and you will see that picture and several other examples of soldiers and Marines, several of them in combat situations, with their fingers on the triggers of various weapons. I don't mean actually firing the weapons, but with them at the ready. Look particularly at the picture of the WWI soldier leading a machine gun crew across a rope/pontoon bridge.
History of the 1911 Pistol

I recall a picture of Sheriff Jim Wilson a few years back in one of the gun rags. It was either a staged photo, or an actual picture of the Sheriff shooting some kind of combat drill. His finger was inside the trigger guard as he moved to another position, and of course in the next month's letters, some sharp eyed reader called him on it. His reply was that he had trained himself to press the back of his finger against the inside front of the trigger guard until he actually brought the gun on target.

My point here is that rule number three is obviously of fairly recent origin. Obviously, the USMC didn't teach that during the two World Wars, Korea, and probably not Vietnam. There are just too many pictures of Marines and soldiers in training and in combat that are not following that rule. Obviously, the people who were in charge of setting safety rules didn't consider it to be that important. I never went to the service, but the thing I remember reading and hearing from the late 50s through the next twenty years was muzzle control, every gun is loaded, and be sure of your target.

I 'spect some of you have figured where I'm going with this: the keep your finger off the trigger rule became paramount when the Glop came along. I believe one can safely keep his finger inside the trigger guard of a 1911, as long as he has the proper training to take the safety off as the gun comes on target. Same with a double action revolver. There is a big difference between a 5.5lb trigger pull and a 12 lb pull. Obviously, it is indeed not safe to place your trigger finger on the Glop trigger until you are ready for it to fire. Obviously, given the number of negligent/accidental discharges, neither civilians nor police are doing a good job of adhering to this rule when carrying the tactical tupperware.

One of my favorite pictures. What kind of howl would go up if this picture was posed by current day competition shooters?

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Georgia On My Mind

Yup I have pictures like that. Here is one. Would you belive a couple of these were LAPD swat? The picture is around 1971. I am on the far left with the hat and pipe. When you are flying down the freeway at 75 meeting other cars at 75 do you ever stop and think that anyone of those many cars could just do a millisecound twitch either by accident or on purpose and you might be shakeing hands with the devil? Whats different? In one hour of driveing you are trusting a thousand or more strangers with your life, are you not? Everything in life is a gamble. Its also a slideing scale of risk in everything we do. You can get killed driveing to prayer meeting wedsday night! People just need to use their heads. How many of those rock climbers we are talking about on another thread will probley tell you they wouldnt drive 10 feet without useing their seatbelt?

Ahh! The good ole leather slap days. No I wasn't there. Too young.

But I get your point. I see it a lot too but never thought too mention it.

There is also a story of a gun writer who visited Cooper in his later years. Showed him a 44 mag. Cooper shot a hole through is window. Or maybe his wall. Two BIG mistakes by guys that know better.

Just take my word for this. One of those famous people was rideing in a police car with another aquantance of mine. They were showing guns to each other and one of those guys gun went off! I only heard that secound hand but belive it.

This thread brings to mind the exposed trigger guard holsters that so many of us old pharts foolishly carried for decades without accidentally shooting our butts off.

Things have changed so much in the last few years, that new shooters are paralyzed by the mere sight of some old "gunsel" packin' a revolver in a Jordan style holster, or a finger in the trigger guard of a double action gun.

Technology don't replace training and constant practice.

I have been in shooting incidents where a "secure" holster or a two stage procedure to get your finger on the trigger in a fast draw would have got me killed.

Last tuesday on that quad ride that I wrote about where I tipped over, anyway at one point somebody wanted to know if I was armed as the other 3 guys were. I had a 2" s&w model 34 in my bib overalls over my right breast pocket, pulled it out for just a moment. The guy that asked me was packing some model s&w auto. He kind of marveled that I was in some kind of danger carrying a gun that way. I didnt argue, only said something like I thought it safe. These people younger than my 70 are all into autos and dont understand the safety of a DA revolver. Maybe I am remiss in not argueing the point. I think I just said I carried em 35 years on the job with no problem. My sleeping bag type bib overalls have zipper pockets on both sides of the chest. The gun is tight and safe in it. Had I been wearing a OWB holster and gun on me I belive it would have suffed up the gun and bruised me up even worse when I rolled the quad.

I started shooting a handgun with D/A revolvers. Nobody ever told me to keep my finger out off the trigger and to tell you the truth I never thought much about it. Good grief, you have to WANT to pull a D/A revolver trigger. Even today I find when I pick one up, my finger goes right inside the trigger guard. I have to tell myself to get it out.

But when I started with semi-autos, I made a point to hammer myself with the keep your finger off the trigger/alongside the slide. So with a semi-auto, my finger goes right alongside the slide. Funny how that muscle memory works.

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John 3:16 .

If you look closely at the Leatherslap photo above, you may be able to tell that all the 1911's are empty.............you can see the breechface, illuminated by the flash.

well the other thing is keep in mind how many 1911's are made with match triggers now, with about a 2 - 2.5 pound trigger pull or are modified to have a match like trigger vs a normal goverment model 5 pound one

and shooting my own Kimber Gold Match at the range if I was to carry it I would keep my damn finger VERY far away from the trigger till I was a 100% ready to fire it because that thing is really quite light and probably has that light of a trigger on it, and honestly it seems like when you get going its very hard to stop.


and back when cooper made the bren ten he was evidently aware of this as its reportedly got a 5 pound trigger vs the match triggers of most 1911's now

so it probably best applies in addition to those rules with striker fired pistols in general and match like SAO only pistols like the 1911 if they have lighter than originally designed triggers.

I think that having your finger on the trigger might give you a split sec. advantage when your life depends on it but instructors now have to teach to keep the finger off the trigger to keep from getting sued if something does go wrong. I think recommending holsters that cover the trigger guard is to cover the instructors. I'll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut if the instructor knew he was going to a gun fight he would have a holster with an exposed trigger and when he pulled his gun his finger would be on the trigger. Larry

Jordan Border Patrol Holster: I used this style for the first 35 years of my career carrying a revolver.
The next 10 years of my career I used a agency issued SSIII holster and a issue Sig-Sauer P-229 .40.
When issued the SSIII holster and Sig .40 we were taught the "Universal Cover Mode" which is "Finger Outside The Trigger Guard Until Firing". The trigger finger was to be held along side of the frame until firing.
Up until this time I had never heard of the "Universal Cover Mode".
I got in the habit of cocking the hammer of the Sig for the first shot where I had the same trigger for each shot. This was a "NO-NO".
Have the first shot double action and succeeding shots single action took some getting use to.
Jimmy

I am really relieved to learn that I'm not the only one who thinks that muzzle control, knowing your target, and just general common sense are the keys to safety.

On the topic of holsters, I posted this picture of one of Lobo's works of art on another forum. About the third post down, somebody asked, "Isn't that exposed trigger guard dangerous?"

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Georgia On My Mind

The Jordan and Threepersons style holsters were the standard for MANY years, and all of us who used these were taught when you started your draw finger went to the trigger as the barrel cleared the holster and was moving forward. I never had an A.D. using this draw nor do I know anyone who did.

At the range, finger off the trigger until on target is still the one rule I have to constantly remind myself of. 40 years of training is hard to get over.

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Always Stay Strong!

Old fabels die hard. When you are young and starting out we belive everything we are first taught to be gospel truth, after all, we are the newbie and the instructor is older and must be blessed by paperwork somewhere, right? Hey, it works for the liberal colleges!
My first cheif insisted we carry our offical police colts with 5, just like the old single actions. Our holsters were the old flap type. I was sure it was because they thought more of protecting their issued gun than us!
I belive that chief was born in the 1890s though. Most of all this stems from lawyers and lawsuits. Ruger prints the saftey manuel on the barrel, both ruger and smith puts on totaly useless locks. Every soul in the world is more scared of a lawyer than God! Best err on the side of lawyers than common sense, right?
One of the strangest sights I ever seen was a guy driveing through town with a revolver hooked over his cars antena through the trigger guard! The look on his face was like he was carrying a nucler bomb! I can only guess the story that must have been behind that!
I liken some people like that.

A revolver made out of metal and a floral tooled leather holster with an exposed trigger. A great pair. Larry

Electronic shot timers are wonderous things. They've proved your belief is false, there's no significant difference. This is especially true if the weapon has to move at all to cover the target.

I can't speak for others, but most of us are heartily in favor of having the trigger guard covered. Especially when we're on the firing line with some folks. The only thing an exposed trigger allows you to do is shoot where ever your piece is pointed while it's still in the holster. And yes, my original Buchheimer duty holsters had exposed triggers.

The guy to the left of Cooper in the photo is Thell Reed, one of the fastest men alive at the time when quick draw competitions were the rage, and I think the guy to the left of him is John Bianchi. The man on the far left looks familiar, is that Jim Clark ? Who is the gentleman on the right ?

From jeffcooperfoundation.org

"Five of the top six competitors in the early days of practical shooting. From left to right: Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver. Missing is John Plahn. Jeff dislikes this picture because they are all violating two of the safety"

The gentleman to the right is none other than Jack Weaver, inventor of the Weaver stance. He is the only one with a revolver, a Model 14. He won the matches for the first year or two, because he soon realized that if you wanted to hit the target, you needed to use the sights. Everyone else was hip shooting. They were faster, but not on target.

From left to right, Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, Cooper, and Weaver.

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Georgia On My Mind

Hi,

It is so sad how the chemicals in our photos change the colors through the years. So, I've tried to restore this photo for you, color-wise, to make it much more like it was originally. Hope you like it . . . "preserved" forever on a JPG!

Tom

Yep, those were the pioneers living in California who had yet to learn the true realities of exceptional gun control that the "gun games" out there would soon benefit us all with the new-found techniques.

Jack Weaver on the right, who passed away a year or so ago, gave LEOs the fighting stance that has probably saved many a cop's life.

No, not the stance I'd use in "gun game"competitions but the best compromise between a fighting, non-lethal stance that give's one excellent situational awareness plus a great and accurate shooting stance should a LEO be forced to use lethal force.

We all have a lot to thank those guys for. Then again, if they showed up at our matches today they'd initially get clobbered by about any decent local "talent."

True innovators indeed!!!

Thanks tom! That picture was near cerro gordo mine above owens dry lake california. At least I still have that winchester model 70. Jack weaver was a deputy on los angeles county sheriffs dept where I was from in those days. Somewhere I have a old guns and ammo magazine from the early 70s that shows jeff cooper coaching me in a silhouette shoot. I looked like a beached whale laying on my gut and did poorley as I recall.

Glad to do it for you! Hope you are well, our forum friend!

Tom, that was good work and a nice thing to do. I'll be down your way in a couple of weeks or so woodcock hunting and staying at a buddy's place outside Dublin. Want to get my old 12 year old dog on a few more. Hopefully it'll cool off some.

Feralmerril, if you can find that pic of you and Col. Cooper, I probably ain't the only feller here that would like to see it...

I'll try to remember to keep my finger off the trigger follerin' the dogs around them bottom lands...

Feralmerril,

I like your old pics and want to see more, including the Jeff Cooper-n-You one.

You pic posted here was back in the days when a person could go into the outdoors and shoot at will without some yahoo coming over and wanting to know what's all the shooting about?

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

Sooooo....you guys are saying I should give up my beloved Model 99T ??????

Never shot myself in the foot using it...

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Take your time..quickly.

It was a article on silhouette shooting that was just getting started. My name wasnt anywhere in the article, it was just a random shot of the event. Think cooper was spoting with a spoting scope or binoculars. I will try to find and post it. I was shooting a 8 3/8" nickle 29-2. A friend goaded me into entering and I hadnt even practiced for that type shooting.
Far as shooting in the boonies on that picture I posted, I think there was about 7 or 8 of us on that trip and maybe 4 or 5 of them lapd. My friends brother was on the bomb squad and he brought some swat buddys with him. Even so I heard one or two of the batch got wrote for haveing loaded rifles in the truck on a 4wd trail after we split up! I will call my buddy soon and try to get the old story straight---its been almost 40 years ago. I just remember haveing a good time. I recall dry camping one or two nights on that trip. My buddys brother died about a year ago.

Hey, here is another one. I guess I didnt change my cloths much in those days. Batchlor, ya know.

no such thing as an empty gun

Lets face it. Those five clowns just didnt know guns like us, we are far more sophisticated.

Eeewww! That's just scary that is!!!

No, that's not scary Iggy. What's scary is strapping that identical rig onto 30 complete strangers on a gun range and attempting to teach them the modern technique of the pistol.

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NRA Patron
MSSA Life Member

No, this is the scariest rig ever made...

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Take your time..quickly.

Stan,

Been there, done that.

oldafsp,
Can't argue with that. Worked for a Sgt that carried a 6" Python in one of those. You never knew where that gun could be pointin'.

On another forum a fella posted a picture of a Vietnam tunnel rat about to enter a hole which was probably inhabited by black-pajama people. His finger was on the trigger of his 1911A1.

Within two posts, one of the "booger hook/bang switch" crowd pronounced him unsafe.

I was delighted with the pummeling that ensued.

I love those old pictures, to remind me of a time before the ascendency of the safety ninny.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

There are precautions taken for the sake of safety that we wouldn't necessarily take if we know trouble is waiting for us. I think Col Cooper recognized this early in his teaching career and did the gun community a favor by stressing safe gun handling.

It is taken too far sometimes, but that's better than the alternative generally.

When the safety ninnies raise their ruckus, I just smile. Gun accidents in this country are very low, comparatively, and that is partly because of the work that Col Cooper did and those he trained, may he RIP.

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MSSA Life Member

I believe it is always prudent to "study" the "new" and "latest", whether it be ideas or equipment.

However I feel a lot of folks "preach the gospel" without really "reading the book".

One can never have too much gun safety but we can have too much "oversight" if that makes sense.

I had heard that the combat handgun sports such as Action Pistol had gravitated to requiring "covered trigger guard leather". If that is so I guess I won't be shooting it.

All my leather is exposed trigger guard. I think it is safe enough.

It is interesting how shooters decry the "one incident" of a bad/accidental shooting that causes the lawmakers to pass a sweeping, invasive law. Then the same shooters pass a rule such as the holster rule just because one, or a few, person(s), somewhere, was careless.

And I don't buy into the comment: "Well if it saves one life.........." If that's the case we should all stay home and have our neccessities delivered to the door. Otherwise we would be taking great chances with our lives and others.

BUT....I do agree firearms safety has come a long and better way than it was even when I started shooting in 1971/1972. Not all that has transpired is "bad".

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Have guns...will shoot'em.

Yes, ALL this finger off the trigger "stuff' is fairly new.
It is a good thing IMHO, but I am old school from back in the day.

We could run after a Felon, climb a fence or three, tackle the low life, and pistol whip him, all with our finger on the trigger, with not an errant round fired... Well most of the time any way... I never let one go...

But...
Truth is things change. We learn and get safer, we wear bullet resistant vests, wear seatbelts, don't drink and drive, etc...

Boys,
I don't give a hoot how many devises for safety is installed on a piece of machinery or how safe ya try to build it's encasement...

All the operation is in the hands of the operator. Safe or unsafe.

All ya newbies mind yur muzzle and don't squeeze that trigger till get that front sight on...

As for packin' a pistol I sumtimes use a holster with a covered trigger guard, like so.
As I might be carrying it cocked.



For with a revolver, I don't care for it, covering up the trigger & guard that is.

If anyone can pull the trigger double action in one of my holster to the point of discharge,
I'll kiss yur behind and give ya thirty minutes to draw a crowd.






That is all for today...

Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Speaking of the days when fingers weren't so safety concious................

Both Charlie Askins and Bill Jordan have written articles that detailed just how many AD/ND/UD events took place just in the Border Patrol in the 1930's-50's. I'm sure Jordan specifically mentioned only the funniest ones. However, that was back before lawyers were a dime a dozen and peoples attitudes were entirely different about many things.

It's all about liability. If I ever get dragged into court to testify about a training regimen, I will be able to say that I train my shooters to keep their finger out of the trigger guard until they are on target and ready to fire. It will then be the shooter's "lie-ability" to get him/herself out of that particular pickle.

My observation is that the best gunhands in the old days were not necessarily the safest guys to be around. E.g., Bill Jordan pluggin' the guy on the other side of the wall while practicing his fast draw. Not saying I know anywhere near as much as those guys did, but I do think I am as safe or safer. Wear a seatbelt when I drive, too, and insist anyone else in the car does as well if I am driving. Cars did not even have seatbelts when I was a kid -- or padded dashboards for that matter.

I am in favor of finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, and would apppreciate my shooting companions to be of like mind. That said, exposed trigger guard on a revo in a well fit holster does not bother me.

And above all: Muzzle control.

Finger control is of the utmost importance.... be it horizontal or verticle..

Improper finger control may lead to dysfunction. Bad words and other assorted issues.(read on it gets better)

AD: In our world : Accidental Discharge

You really didn't mean to fire that weapon, but did.

I got to expirence one up close one night.

We had a young deputy that was nearing the end of his 6 month probationary period. In the last week of this his FTO turned him over to a Sgt for evaluation.

I drew this young fellow on a Thursday night. I was assigned to the 3-11 trick. Good kid, knew his stuff and showed a lot of street smarts.

We had handled the routine number of calls and traffic stops during the shift. Long about a little after 10 pm we get dispatched for a possible armed robbery in progress.

We were the closest 2 man unit, maybe 7 or 8 minutes away. 2 other units were dispatched along with us. We had a Plymouth Gran Fury, only about 3 weeks old.

I told him to get the shotgun out of the rack (on the dash)and get it ready. We would be first on the scene by a couple of minutes at least.

When we approached the intersection of a state highway from the county road we were on, you could see a quarter of a mile each way. I think we were running about 80 when I crossed the intersection, and got some air under us....when we came down....

BOOM

The car is filled with a strange dust and I don't hear so well out my right ear...****..the car seems ok so I jam my foot back in it.

Wellllll..he had his finger in the trigger guard of that 870 riot gun. 1 round 00 buck right through the roof. The strange dust was from the headliner being blown apart.

He kept his cool though, ejected the empty and left the slide open until we arrived on the scene. The bad guys had made their getaway and were caught the next day.

When the other units arrived, they were all aghast at how my car looked...that 00 round blew the right side of the light bar almost in half, the lenses shattered and one of the motors was gone completely.

The paperwork was a nightmare to say the least. He had to complete another 2 weeks of training on the dept. range per the Undersheriff.

I still don't hear so good outta that ear....

But now thinking back, I do chuckle once in awhile.

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Take your time..quickly.

Don't call me a gunsel. This is the definition of the term "gunsel" as used in The Maltese Falcon:


When Dashell Hammett wrote the novel The Maltese Falcon, he described Wilmer as a "catamite" (a young man in a sexual relationship with an older man). The publisher objected, so Hammett changed it to "gunsel," an obscure bit of street slang with the same meaning. Because so few people were familiar with the term, it snuck past the Breen Office and into the finished film.

Most people who watch the movie assume "gunsel" is just another word for "gun man," and many subsequent novels and films noir have misused the term as such.

I think Iggy sed, "Old gunsel" as apposed to a "young gunsel".

Where's my funk & wagnalls...I's got to look this'n up for future references.

Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I have three hammer-fired guns in which, when in SA mode, I will keep my finger far from the trigger. My carry is drawn with the safety coming off and the finger alongside the trigger. In DA the trigger has to be deliberate so there is time to change my mind.

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USN WWII Korea
NRA

Boy, I am gettting a education! Gunsel? Who would have thunk?

"Pistol Whip" It is recommended that a revolver with a ejector rod housing be used to avoid damaging your weaopn.
Also a "Convoy Blackjack" is good for getting a suspect's attention.
or so I have been told.

The Maltese Falcon - let's talk about the bird extract - YouTube

Does the ending of this scene have a new meaning? It is San Francisco. What do you expect?

Well I always carried a 44 Magnum, or a 45 ACP S&W, with the ejector shroud, or a 1911. I have Pistol Whipped criminals with both.
They should consider themselves lucky, as I determined it was not really necessary to shoot them, even though it would have been determined to be legal to do so... But as they were non complient, a thump or three was necessary to ensure my safety, and thus their safety as well...

Once upon a time I wacked a fella, that had just shot another fella, in a Mexican bar, with my hand, instead of my Mod 25-2. I was afraid I might bend the barrel, as I needed to hit him HARD...
My wack was effective, but I broke the bone in the bottom of the palm of my hand.

I had to shoot IPSC Matches, for the next 3 months left handed.

From then on I hit them with the handgun, HARD.