Hello.

I am 34 years old, married and have 2 children. My current occupation is a heavy haul truck driver. I currently pull down about 50k per year gross and it does pay the bills. But, it's a tough way to make a living and it's getting tougher each day. Not so much the job itself, but in the litigious society we find ourselves inhabiting nowadays, I'm not sure my job will carry me through to retirement 30+ years down the road. I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you, it's getting rough out there.

I wanted to tap the vast and diverse knowledge and experience the S&W Forum is teaming with, and here is my question.

Is gunsmithing a viable means of a living? I have been involved with, and in love with firearms all my life, since childhood. I have been browsing the web, looking at a few gunsmithing schools and some of the claims made. It's certainly not cheap or easy. What in life worth doing is? I am very mechanically inclined, turning wrenches on everything from bicycles as a child, to sleds/atv's/motorcycles, to heavy trucks and equipment. I have seen it claimed that a certified gunsmith can expect to make between 35 and 65 dollars per hour. Is this true, or a little too optimistic? I realize that at this point in my life, it may not be the best time to change horses. But I see it as a possibility to build a career in a field that I really enjoy, that will present challenges and opportunities to grow. Not just to have a job to trudge off to every morning. In no way do I mean any offense to any of my trucker brothers that may be members here. But, having said that, I have felt for quite some time I have been selling myself short and can do better.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and having my first mid-life crisis?

Sorry for the long, life-story post. But I would like to get some objective opinions from people who have done it, or are doing it now. I don't want to base a major decision on school recruiting promises that may or may not be realistic..

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Joe

I only know one gunsmith and he tried to make a living on his own but he could not so he went into working in the basement of a gunshop and he splits the cost. I think how I would do it as a FFL holder than be a gunsmith as well. That way you could have more income coming in.

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Vaya con Dios

I wont be much help here. I have never been a truck driver or gunsmith although I wish I had tried both. I am almost 71 and have lived life. I am guessing here, but I imagine the only well paid gunsmiths are the guru`s we read about and there arent many of them.
My life experiance tells me especialy in these bad economic times it`s hard to beat working at a place that gives you the bennies of OT pay, health insurance, retirement, 401K, vacation and sick pay etc.
I had several friends that were gunsmiths years ago and in most cases it was their secound career after their retirements from their old day jobs etc. Were I to try that, haveing a wife that has a good paying job and the bennies of health insurance would be the best insurance. Also you probley could go back on the road if things didnt work out. I never had a wife that worked outside of the house. Maybe your luckier.

Yes, I in the past given consideration to applying for an FFL to have a transferring service on the side as well. If not in conjunction with gunsmithing, even as a side business to what I currently do.

Feralmerril: My wife does currently work and our family's medical insurance is through her employer, the State of NY. My job is the meat and potatoes of our household income..

I have been privileged to know number of gunsmiths, both "amateur" and full time. When I was about 17 my father asked me if I was interested in going to gunsmith school, and I sometimes wondered if I should have said yes. I didn't, but the general interest remained.

The general impressions I wound up with was that while it's important to be a generalist, specialization pays much better--if you can acquire a reputation and there is a continuing demand for that particular talent. The range of skills involved is very wide. The equipment and overhead involved can be very substantial. The population base has to be enough to support the business. And it IS a business, not a hobby. In other words, it sounds a lot like being a doctor or a dentist!

I admire anyone who is a good gunsmith, partly because while I know what I like and want, there are certain things requiring magic that I can't do.

I used to have a series of articles I clipped out on gunsmithing as a business, as well as columns in the old Rifleman magazine featuring well known gunsmiths and their thoughts from back in the late 50s and 60s.
They said about the same things.

That said, there is still a need for good gunsmiths as long as people keep "improving" their guns and buying Dremel tools.

Good luck.

Very few can gunsmith full time and earn enough to live comfortably. If it was easily possible there would be more people doing it...kinda like the old saying, "if money grew on trees some rich guy would already own them all!!" It is a nice part time income supplement and if you really like doing it and can afford the right equipment it can be enjoyable. I barrel several actions a year, do bluing, parkerizing and case coloring, stock work including checkering and general repair and restoration. It didn't pay for my cabin in the mountains, but it does buy the gas and food to get there and hunt/fish and off season kayak down the James River. Alot of liability involved so you have to consider that. The equipment is expensive. One good thing is you will get paid because you can hold their gun until you do. Good luck.

In the area I live there is a big demand for GOOD gunsmiths. There aren't too many around. The few that are good are always busy and it takes a while to get anything done.

A good school is a great start. But you will need some OJT.

Check your local area shooting sports. Just before hunting season, rifle sales are brisk. Some like muzzle breaks. Any area shotgun clubs? Sporting clays? IPSC?

Learn all you need to know but carve yourself a niche. I knew a local gunsmith that did a lot of muzzle breaks. They weren't the greatest but it kept him in business at a storefront for several years. But he stunk in other areas of gunsmithing. His reputation suffered putting him out of business.

There are gunsmiths, and then there are parts installers. A real gunsmith will be part machinist and jack of all trades. And he will need to invest in the tools in takes to do the job.

Drill press, lathe, calipers, etc...... It's big step.

I thought you had to be an FFL to legaly be a legit gunsmith?

Might as well start a gunstore...

I think that may be true Stevie, but I'm not positive, so I didn't say one way or the other. Makes sense though..

Thank you all who have replied so far. It's kind of looking like I should have pursued this much earlier in life than now when my family depends on me..

But I welcome any and all advice that is still to come.

Pursuing your FFL might be a good option as a part time thing and see how it works out?

I've wanted to do this myself, but don't have a permanent base at the moment so it makes it impossible... You can do it out of home, but need to live in an area that allows for commerical businesses to be ran, have "store hours", and be willing to allow search from a random ATF agent who might show up... The hours thing is not hard to get by, just list weekday daytime hours and work by appointment only.

Note: i'm not stating fact about FFL req., just generalization from what i've picked up.

If nothing else it could make supporting your hobby a little easier and less expensive...make a little money selling to friends, and 25 bucks a pop if you want to handle gun shipments for local residents.

I've only known 3 gunsmiths in my life that I would consider good or excellent.... all 3 had a day job to actually pay the bills.

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A closed mouth gathers no foot

One of my best friends graduated from the gunsmithing school that was founded by P.O. Ackley. One of his instructors served a 10-year apprenticeship at Holland And Holland. My bud knows what the heck he's doin'.

He said that startup expenses are considerable i.e. a lathe, milling machine, and many, MANY other tools along with a place that's suitable for their use. All this against what a given market will bear. He told me that about 1% of gunsmiths make a good living and those are all guys we've heard of.

It's a cryin' shame too because this guy is gifted. He's built some unbelievably fabulous custom rifles and what he can do for any trigger borders on the magical, not to mention his woodworking skills. I 've watched him mill parts for some long out-of-production guns from solid chunks of steel and when he finished them, they could not have fit any better if they'd GROWN there.

Dooman:

I know two local gunsmiths - both are nice guys, one is actually more skilled than the other. Both had their own shops and were considered "generalists" rather than specialist gunsmiths. The one that was more skilled built a pretty good following of 1911 fans after he perfected his skills on fitting and installing parts for the race gun crowd. Recently, they both threw in together and the 1911 guy works for the other gunsmith as a semi-retired, part-time employee. Both are starting to suffer from arthritis in their hands, which I bet is a real killer for guys having to work with their hands. My opinion is that you would have a difficult time making a living as a full-time gunsmith. There have been some good suggestions on this thread, and if you could find a gunsmith that would let you "apprentice" with him, that might be a good way for you to get started. By the way, one of the jobs I did in the past was helping people who lost their jobs prepare for new careers and/or jobs. I used a chart I made that gave a general idea of the amount of difficulty, and the amount of time (roughly) you could expect in your job/career search. What you are proposing requires the most time and resources - it is the most difficult type of career transition. I'm not trying to discourage you, but I am hoping to provide you with enough information so you can make a good decision.

I wish you the very best of luck,

Dave

Thank you all for taking the time to give me some advice on this subject. It sure sounds like the GS schools are blowing alot of smoke. I guess I kind of expected that to be the case.

It sounds like my window of opportunity has come and gone in this case. It's funny how when one is young, fresh out of high school, all you want to do is get out there and make some money to buy that ____. It isn't till you get a few years into the workforce you really start to think about a sense of fulfillment in your career, or lack thereof... And sometimes, when a person is looking at 30+ years to go till retirement is possible, it can be a little daunting.

Life happens fast. It seems like you turn around and the next thing you know you have a wife and kids depending on you. Not that I have any regrets whatsoever about my family. Looking back, I just wish I would have thought ahead a little more than I did.. Guess that's what it means to be young and dumb. I just hope not be be old and dumb

I am 36 years older than you, (more than twice your age), and I still dont know what I want to be when I grow up! Go fer it!

Freigh hauling is one of the precious few get rich slow schemes I foresee with a secure future ... no matter what goes down, be it your freight was made in the USA or China ... someone has to get it from somewhere to somewhere else. hold that seat.
it does not matter what you do in life all trades are subject to litigation if you screw up.
figured I'd put that one out there before we get serious.
Gun repair ... I fix my own personally .. but Im not sure id want to do this professionally. in handguns we are seeing a lot of plastic fantastic pistols as well as other ideas in guns that fail in grand fashion when they break. I imagine a GS would see lots the irreparable DOA guns like Glock KB's and others that were turned away by factory repair services after being deemed "toasted". building race guns ... I'd love that craft myself. I find tranquility in honing parts to a perfect fit. but your competing with well established shops like Wilson Combat. Vintage gun repair .... just try finding parts for an English double 16 Ga. you'd have to make them. thats a lathe and a mill right out of the gate ....

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it just needs more voltage

I know three local gunsmiths. Two are good but could not live on what they take in so they do it as a side job. Even with their regular jobs included, they do not make 50K a year.

One is Jim Clark's son. He is carrying on his father's work, has a large operation and employs other gunsmiths. He is doing well for himself but he walked into a gold mine. Also he sells firearms (both new & used), has a firing range at his shop and is just a great guy. He likely is making an upper six figure income but it is due to a long standing operation.

That 35-65 hour looks good on paper and if you were able to bill AND collect and KEEP 40 hours worth a week, you would be golden. Based on a 2000 hour work year your 50k works out to $25/hour. And that's net pre tax in your pocket. I don't know what it is in gunsmithing, but based on my experience, a $45/hour rate will historically net abound $25-$30 pre tax to you after overhaed and expenses and that is assuming you can bill and collect 40 hoours a week. Further experience indicates that you will be able to actually bill 1 hour for every 1.5 hrs actually spent at work-if you are honest.
My experience is that with all the interuptions and non revenue producing tasks that I do, I average around 5-6 billable hours for an 8 hour day. Some lawyers claim to bill 2000+ hours a year but those guys have the institutional clients and are quite adept at a thing called double billing. They also work normal 60-80 hour weeks.
Calculate tha amount you are costing your employer in addition to your salary. If you are making $50k a year you are probably costing your employer in the neighborhood of $65k when you calculate the co pay on the insurance the FICA and other fringe benefits. In other words, if you are working for yourself, you are going to have to clear at least that amount pre tax before you even break even.
And we're not even getting into the capital expense of setting up the tools and equipment you will need to be able to produce 40 hours of work each week-assuming you can get the clients.
Not meaning to poop on your parade, but ya need to think these things through CAREFULLY.

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Forum consigliere

Basically NO. Most of us that really appreciate fine firearms are getting on in years.
The new generation (your future market) appreciates PLASTIC throw away or upgrade replacement items from Firearms, Musical Electronics, to Computers.

CNC machinery makes it possible for a growing market of DROP-IN or SNAP-ON parts and accessories.
Just look around, I'm a retired machinist, and very few machinist jobs exist today as they went off shore with the rest of manufacturing.

Your Hourly Rate to cover an Education in GUNSMITHING and Machinery Operation, the actual Machinery, Tools, Supplies, Licenses, Federal- State-Local-Regulations plus the EPA ones, Place of Business, Insurances, Advertising, Accounting Services, Taxes, would be a hindrance.

I just watched the BARRETT-JACKSON Auto Auction in Scottsdale, Arizona last week and all those collectors of Fine Old Automobiles and Muscle Cars are getting Long in the Tooth Too.

Just one other thought, When a REAL demand for them is there, WAL-MART will probably have them.

Good Luck with your Choices.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

As said earlier, don't want to rain on your parade, but you would probably make more money being an auto or diesel mechanic. Gunsmithing is a tuff row to hoe unless you've got a lot of start up cash and are really exceptional at what you do and even then it's hard to make a decent living as there is only so many hours in the day as opposed to how long some jobs take, for instance making a full blown custom rifle stock. Very time consuming and you can only do so many in a given amount of time. It can be a very rewarding career as far as self satisfaction but "ya gotta have to wanna" and be content with not getting rich. Best of luck whatever you decide.

Sonoran Desert Institute is probably among the best of the online schools. A guy who took their program restored my Krag for me, he did a good job.

A lot of the Marines here are armorers and do online gunsmithing programs.

Have you thought about simply joining the Army? With enlistment bonus, housing, etc you'd probably make about what you do now assuming you have enough college to go in as an E-4 or qualify for a program that allows enlistment as an E-5. They'll give you a job working on guns if that is what you want, or driving heavy equipment or anything else you qualify for. (42 is the age cut off now.) Do your 20 and retire as an E-7 or so when you're in your mid 50s.

In terms of gunsmithing, yes you can make a living, the more so if you sell guns as well, but it depends on where you live as to the demand.

Even plastic guns have specialists - there's a thriving market in Glock and AR modifications. Other people do different things - 1911s, precision rifles, or even building blackpowder guns from scratch. (Many of these are quite expensive and quite nice.)

But, and I say this in all seriousness, also look into Blacksmithing. It's undergoing a real revival and you can use many of the same skills to make knives and certain guns parts.

It's a tough gig. Any self-employment is. As moonman stated, more and more guns are plastic-fantastic throw-aways.
Unless you are a specialty 'smith (means picky) you will deal with everything from covering up a scratch to building guns from scratch. Expect more on the lower end of the scale to come through the door. I need a screw, firing pin, spring replaced, etc. These are $10 jobs. They will cost YOU more than they are worth, most of the time.

If you like wrenches, look into mechanicing?

My best advice is to Google "Dave Ramsey" and figure out how to make what you got work, first.
I did it for you: Real Debt Help - Get out of debt with Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover Plan - daveramsey.com

He has a radio show, maybe you can find that and get an idea. Some places, churches here, do his Financial Peace University from time to time.

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War Eagle! '10 BCS & '13 SEC

Keep the day job.

There's almost too much that you have to know, too much to inventory and too much in the way of tools, machinery and specialty tools to be set up as a good 'general gunsmith'. Add to that the talent. Everything else is wasted w/o the know-how.

Customers will expect you to do everything from reaching back into a parts bin for a slide release for their pre-war Savage 29, to making their Winchester 21, Parker, LCS not fire both bbls everytime the Single trigger is pulled, to fixing the AR's/AK's, Glocks, mount a scope,,and on and on.

A few can do most anything but most settle into a comfortable specialty.
They cultivate customers/dealers/collectors that need their services within that specialty and that is where they can make a go of it.

It takes time and good work out into the hands of the people you're targeting to establish that. Not something done over night.
Working for an established shop is one way to do that and gain experience.
You'll need at least an 01FFL working on your own. You may as well take advantage of the buy/sell of firearms to make additional money.

You can get an 01FFL with a stipulation that it be 'for gunsmithing only' on the original application or when you renew at any point.
The only thing I can see that you gain is not having to list the business hours. What you loose is that ability to buy & sell. It is strictly 'for gunsmithing only'.

Some do a good business by taking in work from gunshops that do not employ a gunsmith on premises. Also from some retail bigbox type stores. They avoid the customer contact that way, do the work, return it and get paid. A nice way to do it in many ways.

Walk in customers can take up alot of your time. Well meaning and curious they may be,,but it's not a spectator sport for the gunsmith/engraver type. Your time is very valuable at the bench and when spent gabbing at the counter is money lost.

I've done it. It was something I wanted to do since I was in my early teens. It came about finally in a very different way from what I would have ever expected. Plus in a specialty (engraving and restoration) that is something I wouldn't have dreamed about early on.
Now I'm trying to be kind of retired from it but still busy working at it every day.

A Gun Smith's income has to do with many factors and there is truly NO ONE here that can answer your question with any meaningful answer. Here are just some the variables:

1) What are the Demographics of your area?
2) Do you live in a "gun friendly" environment?
3) How difficult is it to get an FFL in your County?
4) Do you currently have or can you afford to buy all the equipment to do FULL SERVICE Gun Smithing?
5) How talented are you with your hands?
6) How are you as a Businessman?
7) Do you feel comfortable working with the retail public?
8) Can you afford to give up your regular job and devote your time to do this full time, or is this just a part time supplementary thing?
9) How supportive will your wife and kids be in the beginning when the money is tight?
10) Do you have enough money that you can sustain your lifestyle for AT LEAST one year without any income, while you are building the business and reinvesting the profits into machinery, equipment and advertising? Can you get through the slow weeks and months?

As you can see (and I am not being negative here, just truthful) there are so many factors that will affect weather you would be a successful or unsuccessful Gun Smith (financially). There are 20 Pizza joints here in the Town that I live in. One does phenomenal, two do fantastic and the rest just barley make enough to keep their doors open, some don't. Same town, same people, same set of circumstances.

Unfortunately before you give up you your regular job you will have to do some serious soul searching and most importantly is to be honest with YOURSELF as far as the answers to these and many other questions.

If you decide to go forward, I wish you the best!

Regards,
Chief38

1) What are the Demographics of your area?
Mostly shotgun because you cant hunt with rifles here, not many places to shoot either.

2) Do you live in a "gun friendly" environment?
Maryland...land of the communist liberal democrat!!! Are you kidding???

3) How difficult is it to get an FFL in your County?
About the same as everywhere else, pretty difficult. You have to have retail store front and proper zoning. Dont really need an FFL to gunsmith.

4) Do you currently have or can you afford to buy all the equipment to do FULL SERVICE Gun Smithing?
No and rarely does anyone else, I started small and bought equipment as I made the money. I bought, restored and sold for profit alot of oldies but goodies to pay for my equipment but it didnt happen overnight.

5) How talented are you with your hands?
Definately helps, machinist by trade and certified welder.

6) How are you as a Businessman?
This ones the kicker, no really good businessman would try to smith for a living, he would get into real estate or sell coke.

7) Do you feel comfortable working with the retail public?
Yep, but most gunsmithing isn't retail, its repair and that might be worse yet. Many times its not a matter of feeling comfortable, its a matter of covering your tail and beating the occasional huckster that wants something for nothing at his own game.

8) Can you afford to give up your regular job and devote your time to do this full time, or is this just a part time supplementary thing?
Part time supplementary only, and I hope it stays that way...I'd starve if I had to do it full time.

9) How supportive will your wife and kids be in the beginning when the money is tight?
About as "supportive" as they are about anything else when money is tight, zero.

10) Do you have enough money that you can sustain your lifestyle for AT LEAST one year without any income, while you are building the business and reinvesting the profits into machinery, equipment and advertising? Can you get through the slow weeks and months?
Sustain my lifestyle for a year without income??? I couldn't do that if I won the Lotto!!

Bottom line how I did it, start slow and small, learn on your own guns because it's alot better for long term business to mess up your own gun than someone elses and dont quit your day job. You dont have to tell anyone about your own gun mistakes. $65.00 an hour, no problem actually low for me...unfortunately it's just not 40 hours a week and it's not starting out. Once I got pretty good at barreling actions and doing accuracy rifle work I did alot of it for friends at very cut rate prices to get the word out. Best advice of all is never, ever cut a corner...it will bite you in the tail everytime. The above were all good questions but as you can see none are necessarily deal breakers. You can do it but it's slow and alot of work and you have to like doing it because it quickly gets "not fun."

keep the day job. unless your name is wilson ,bowen,brown,or hienie ect. ect. or if you can invent a cheaper better slide fire. anyway good luck in your quest.

Well,
there you have it!

I would start out doing it to supplement your income; work on your own guns and then friends. If you can start to stir up a lot of business and make a name for yourself, then look into going full time. Being a small business owner in America is no easy task and is getting harder every day. You need to have all your ducks in a row.

Good luck, I certainly think you have plenty of time to start a new career.

My son is a Gunsmith. He has worked in two different gunshops and is only just now getting set up on his own. To keep the cash coming in for his new wife and child, he works another job about 50 hours a week.

The time honored tradition is for an older, experienced gunsmith to take an apprentice under his wing. The apprentice will do everything asked of him from sweeping the floor to sanding a stock and he learns along the way. He is trading his labors for knowledge. Eventually he learns enough and develops a reputation and a customer following.

It's a tough row to hoe and you don;t make any money for quite some time until you go out on your own.... Even then you'll never get rich. If your family situation requires that you put beans on the table, it's probably not a good fit for you right now.

We always used to joke that the "best way to make a small fortune as a gunsmith is to start with a big one..."

My best advice is:

Write down six things you are really passionate about in life. Perhaps, they are combinations of things you enjoy (i.e., marketing manager for a gun company; or a company that specializes in supplies for truck drivers or a major manufacturer).

After you get maybe 6 of these things down that you enjoy, or pieces of things you enjoy from several disciplines, I think you will find what you may be looking for.

I forgot who said it, but when we do what we love for a living, we start truly succeeding.

Hope this helps--

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Rather be outdoors

WOW! What a bunch of great, well thought out and well worded advice!

These are the kinds of answers I am looking for. Of course the gunsmithing schools are going to tell me I'll make a great living as they are trying to talk me into taking out student loans to pay their tuition.... Real experience from real people in the business is what I want to know about and you all have done just that.

I have kind of been a man a many hats over my lifetime to this point. I have worked as an equipment operator, in home service technician (lawn and garden equipment), general mechanic, truck driver. Just about everything I have done for a living involves the internal combustion engine.

Another passion I have along with my firearms passion is ATV's, sleds and whatnot. I own em, ride em, fix em, and mod em myself. I just did a 350 Big-Bore mod with all the goodies on my old Honda 250r trike. Did all the work (besides the machining) myself.. I guess my dilemma is that the things I enjoy the most aren't very easy to break into and make good money at! Why can't I get excited about investing! LOL!

34, Married, 2 Kids, that's a Responsibility.

Now your other Passion is ATV'S, and you're already mechanically inclined with them,
so maybe that's the direction you should go.

Fix them, Detail them, Race them, Soup them UP, Sell & Install Parts, and you can do that around your family.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I can offer my $.02 its worth what you paid for it...

A big part of business is handling the business end of it. Things like paying bills, dealing with taxes, writing bills, collecting money.

Things like speaking to people properly, explaining things in an understandable fashion sounds easy but not everyone can do it.

I have found the most successful businesses are started and run by sales people. They know how to sell the business and themselves. Some of the best skilled trades people fail in business.

My last bit of wisdom on any business is to have customers before you start. Sounds crazy to some folks but its not. Starting a business, having equipment etc does not equal being in business. Why, because having that does not mean you will make money. "If you build it they will come" no, not really. Your money will run out before you build a customer base.

Edit:
I think a way that you can gunsmith things and make money today is assembling kits as semi autos. Theres lots of demilled kits on the market you'll need to make receivers and barrel some of them. They dont bring big money but theres some room on it it seems.
The downside is you will need a manufactures ffl and it seems that you will need to pay the ITAR fee. You need to build a lot of guns to cover that...

I live in an area where there is not one gunsmith that does serious work on rifles or handguns any where close to me. I do have one that owns a pawn shop and he will work on triggers and do minor repairs to guns. He doesn't have the equipment to do serious metal work or stock work. When I lived in Colorado I was able to take my firearms to the Colorado School of Trades in Denver and get really serious work done on guns. I also had a couple of really well known gunsmiths in my area for pistol and rifle work including 1911's.

I think today it would be very hard to become a gunsmith because the time it would take to learn the trade, develop the skills, buy the equipment, get a location to work, and most of all build a clientele We also live in an age of changing guns styles and shooters who like plastic pistols, modular rifles and they actually enjoy playing with them.

They will pay big bucks for a "sniper Rifle" or a new upper for their AR 15 but they care little about a beautiful wood stock, a finally tuned 1911, or other things that were the bed and butter of gunsmithing in the past.