in the words of Robert Zimmermann... "the times, they are achangin".

discipline, respect and honor, in this country, have been going down hill since buddy holly died.

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There's nowt so queer as folk

I only wear BDU pants when I'm working on the cars in the garage (because even decades later, they wear like iron). I would never think of wearing them in public. The few Marines I have seen out in public recently have been in dress. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a Marine in public in either MARPAT version of the MCCUU. Has anyone?

You are for sure right about the incredible variaty of cammo uniforms. I used to be able to tell with a quick glance. Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Coast guard or Air force. Now until you get close enough to see the tag over the jacket pocket it's tough to tell even what country, much less which service they belong to.

I once visited the Brother in Law at Cherry Point in 1975 and the Garbage truck detail broke starch on new uniforms each day. I liked the old BDU which could be starched with "military creases" the permapress uniform was terrible to keep looking good in. I guess when we say spit shine to a GI now it was like the old brown shoe guys in our day. I work for the Army am quite amazed at prepared they can be for war but slack in looks. At one time those were considered inseperable. The new "Dust" color bdu and the no shine boots do one thing quite well which is defeat NVG as I understand it.

My first visit to this post:

Utility in uniforms is definitely important for folks working in motor pools, on aircraft (I have been assigned to mech infantry and aviation units) and on training rotations --- marksmanship, gunnery, etc.

I went thru the phase of starched BDU's (ripstop cotton for summer use, poly-cotton fall/winter uniform) -- with shined boots, they looked great -- the ripstop cotton could only take so many starchings before the fabric began to wear out (particularly over those huge green plastic buttons on the pocket flaps). We did not starch the "chocolate chip'
Desert Storm uniforms nor the DCU's. When we went to ACU's, uniforms and boots became much more user-friendly. Worn properly, they make a good appearance.

Unit discipline and good order is top and bottom-driven -- by officers and by both senior and junior NCO's (the true core of the Army) -- if a unit has good officers and NCO's, it will show in how the troops comport themselves and in uniform discipline and military protocol discipline. I never jacked with troops for minor issues -- but if they looked totally slovenly (thankfully rare in the units I served with) or failed to render proper military courtesy, then I gave them gentle but forceful reminders -- I made a point to never embarass a soldier -- I would take them aside for a "family chat" and instill pride, self-sufficiency, and attention to the issue at hand -- and would always let them know I would be proud to man a fighting position with them anywhere -- but that they (like me) had to adhere to standards. I would always ask them if they would go into a combat zone with a poorly-maintained/poorly cleaned weapon -- never got a "yes,sir" answer to that question -- I used that analogy to get th em to understand the importance of proper uniform wear and military discipline. That is what true leadership is about.

Good units never had issues with poor uniform discipline -- that is because they had excellent focused NCO's and officers.

I do wish we (Army) would adopt uniforms similar to the Marines (woodland/desert Marpat style BDU's).

I also wish we would have gone to that great looking olive-drab Class A uniform with the tan shirts (from WW II) rather than going to the ASU blues --- just something real classy about olive-drab Class A uniforms.

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Gunner, Sabot Up!

I'll answer that last sentence and take the hits that will surely follow. "Girls" being assigned through out the services is for the PC crowd. They have NO PLACE in a majority of the Marine Corps mos's and NOT on any Naval Combat Ships period. Read the comments made by current female General Officers who say they should so they can get promotions and the benefits. That's NOT what the military is for. The general direction the miliary is now embarking on will come back to haunt the miliary and will be seen as the mistake it is, and with that, standards have been and will continue to be lowered so as to make them look qualified. That goes for both Officer and Enlisted ranks.
baldeagle8888
USMC, 1962/1966, Vietnam, 1965.

I have been on several hiring boards for both L.E. and F.F. and have interviewed more than a few young men and women that had passed the written exam and after review of the application invited to interview. I am "old school" and served in the Army in the 60's so I have some background on military discipline and appearance. Because of my background I can tell immediately if the candidate has been exposed to military discipline and training. Appearance and dressing properly is the first and lasting impression I first see in a candidate. If they haven't figured that out to start with heading into an interview with "old school" guys like me - your done. I have seen everything from a young man dressed in a business suit to another showing up in a tee shirt and baggy pants hanging around his rear end. Go figure. I don't think a 2 year committment in the mlitary would hurt the young people to help them start life on the right foot - no pun intended.

Make that the left foot...

The mighty, mighty, left foot.

May 1970 I was given a choice: join the air force today or you will be drafted into the army on June 1. Basic training can be a real mental challenge when you are 22, married, previous paycheck was $160 per week after taxes, and now you receive $115 per month before taxes.

After a summer in Texas, I was assigned to Plattsburgh AFB, NY as an aircraft mechanic in SAC. It was a time of change. Aircraft maintenance is a dirty job. I hated the starched fatigues from tech school days (July to October 1970) and have never worn anything starched since then. I worked with guys who didn't know tighten from loosen on a bolt or screw but were "great troops" because of shined boots and starched fatigues.

I was the "best" mechanic in my shop for getting tasks completed or problems repaired, but not a sharp troop. Oil soaked boots just don't shine, and I won't even mention unstarched, un-ironed fatigues. I loved playing mind games with the career NCOs concerning uniforms; no belt, dark blue socks, the possibilities were endless.

To the amazement of several people, I was promoted to staff sargeant in 1 year and 11 months. If people were sharp troops with shined boots and starched fatigues, other minor issues were overlooked: alcoholism, drug use, stupidity in your job performance (hydraulic oil is not lubricating oil for a jet engine), unable to make a decision, marital infidelity. But if starch and polish weren't part of your appearance, you must be stupid.

"Follow the book" is a two way street. You don't like my appearance because I'm on the edge. No problem. The aircraft book says this panel must be installed using a torque wrench. There are 217 Phillips head screws in this panel and the torque sequence is very specific. Install a the panel takes 5 minutes, follow the "book procedure" takes 3 hours. I didn't hear about shined boots again.

Yup, 4 years and 3 months was enough. I was not not the only happy person when I got discharged. Discipline is critical, but shiny boots and starched uniforms are over-rated above job performance. Six and one-half days per week I wear old pants and shirts, but every Sunday morning it is pressed long sleeve dress shirt, tie, dress pants, shiny shoes, and a dress coat if needed for church -- because I want to.

Most of today's military are the finest people to ever wear a uniform. Suede boots and camo uniforms are not what counts. Its ability to do the job, desire to serve, trust and confidence in your team members. Today's military is doing a thankless job for ungrateful people who don't deserve our protection ordered by largest group of incompetent politicians in the history of this great nation.

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S&WHF 366