Come on now!?!

About 11 posts up, Mulepacker talks about a .45 Colt 260 grain bullet he pushes to 1400 fps. I'd like to see the specifics on this load since the .44 magnum bullet of that weight only reaches about 1140 fps. My .45 Colt loads of 260 grain bullets don't even reach 900. 1400? Wow!

The American black bear is now Ursus americanus, according to most taxonomists. Apparently a few holdouts still use Euarctos.


It's possible Corbett was limited to five rounds by state or local laws intended to prevent insurgents or bandits from becoming armed. As I recall, William Fairbairn when with the Shanghai Police had witness holes drilled into the Colt 1908 pistol magazines used by the native police officers. The holes provided a quick visual check that the men were bringing back all of their ammo after a patrol, and not selling a few rounds here and there on the black market.

Check the Speer 9 reloading manual there are some hot ones in there. It has some 300 trainers running 1100 fps, and that is the load I carried in my woods guns.

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Even older, even crankier....

This is my very first bear thread! I am a noob! LOL
I have been an avid hunter for over 40 years. Bear has NOT been my prey. However, i have seen first hand the bone, tissue, skeletonal destruction firearms can do. I own most all calibers in handguns and a large share of rifle cals as well. 7mm magnum would be my very 1st choice in rifle. 12ga high power slugs come next in line, then at least a 6" barreled. 357mag as a BACKUP gun or if I could only have the pistol, the S&W .500 for sure, again, 6" barrel at least.

My wifes grandad killed a black bear in his home in Ocala Florida with a 9mm. They even arrested him for it as the bear was a protected species in that area. Bear did hundreds of $$$$ damage before he killed it, it tore off the screen door came in and gave the kitchen a feasting around midnight. Not a big huge bear as this one was only near 250lbs. True story.

We'll The bear subject has been done.....redone.....tri-done and over done.

Lets get to a real serious subject here.....

What is the best load for self defense against DRAGONS!?

that you must start an entirely new thread if you change species (well, changing between grizzlies and black bears is okay). And if you change to dragons, you may include absolutely no Games of Thrones spoilers!

I have bears at my camp on the front door step. I hear them hooting at night looking for a mate. I can mimic there hoot and bring them within feet of my camp. I hunt bear with a 338wm but at home with bears going thru my land I have a 12ga pump handy with the 400gr whistltng slugs.

Wow, this thread is simply too much to resist! I've got a little trek coming up in a few weeks in bear country. I will be traveling alone. I will be packing a 629 (3-in), with 305gr "bear loads". I am 67 years old and not much of a runner. I have absolutely no interest in shooting a bear, just prefer not to be dinner. I will not be putting bells on my boots, nor practicing any bear mating calls as I trundle along.... I will be thinking of this thread, though
You guys made my day!
XAVMECH

I've been within 30 yards of a grizzly twice while carrying a 44 magnum.My only thought was that I was screwed.

Many years ago on the Paul Harvey radio show at noon, there was a story of a hunter that shot a deer and was dressing it out after leaning his rifle against a near by tree, on Kodiak Island.
He was interrupted by a bear that came across them and made a charge. All he had was the knife and he actually survived the battle and this was looked into by the F&G and they agreed that, in fact, the bear was killed by a knife and no other weapon.
Now the rest of the story...............................

The hunter was 65 years old.


Gun ??
I don't need no stinking GUN !!

.40 Short & Weak??? No thanks.

For a 250lb plant eating Black Bear? No thanks!

For a 500-750lb bad tempered , meat-eating Brown , Grizz , Kodiak or Polar bear?


Not even a 10mm with original Norma factory hot-rods!

Many years ago, as a very young man just returned from my first all expenses paid vacation to sunny Southeast Asia, I decided to try bear hunting on lovely Fort Benning, Georgia. Having studied the subject a bit I proceeded to gather up some bait from local butcher shops, fruit and vegetable stands, etc, ending up with a couple of good sized sacks of rather smelly stuff that would properly be called garbage.

My hunting gun selection was a bit limited, but I had a Mossberg 20-gauge shotgun with adjustable choke that did fairly well with rifled slugs out to about 50 yards (which is usually a pretty long shot in those southern pine forests and swamps). I had taken a number of Georgia whitetail deer with that combination with no problems.

Having set out my bait I settled into ambush mode early one frosty morning. Sure enough, within a couple of hours a black bear obliged me with a visit to bait #1. I remember waiting patiently for several minutes until the old bear moved into what I thought to be the ideal position, offering me a clear heart-lung shot from about 20 yards range. I took the shot and the bear reacted immediately, rearing up and screaming, then rolling over several times and biting at his rib cage area. I chambered a second round and put another shot into the bear's chest, which resulted in little change in behavior. A third shot finally seemed to put the bear down, but he continued thrashing around on the ground. I decided to wait him out, hoping that he would bleed out quickly.

After about 10 minutes the thrashing stopped and the bear was lying still. With a fresh round chambered and the magazine topped off I approached from his rear and watched for a minute or two. The bear was still breathing and shuddered with each exhalation. I worked around to the side, about 3 yards from the head and carefully put one right behind the ear. The bear rolled over, thrashed up onto his feet, and ran about 20 feet right into a big old pine tree, collapsing in a heap. After about 10 minutes I walked over and prodded the still carcass with the barrel of my loaded shotgun. No response.

At that point I was rather delighted with myself. My little family would have at least 150 lbs. of meat in the freezer for the winter, and I would have a bear skin with full bragging rights!

I pulled out my knives and saw, then went to work. Let me first say to those who have never been around a bear in the wild, they stink to high heaven; a skunk has nothing to compete with the stench of an old bear that has been living on garbage, road kill, and gut piles during hunting season. I had just about decided against keeping the hide, just because of the terrible smell, when it was time to start recovering that meat for the freezer.

Bear meat is dark and musty smelling, and as greasy as a side of bacon ever thought of being. I cut, sawed, and hacked that carcass until everything that might be useful for consumption had been collected. Several trips to the car were required to carry out my winter's meat supply.

Spent much of that day butchering the big chunks into what I thought to be roasts, steaks, and other edible portions for the freezer. After the experience of dressing out and cutting up that nasty old critter I decided it would be best to wait a couple of weeks before having the first meal.

We decided to start out with a nice roast, done up in the pressure cooker with onions and spices, some mashed potatoes and pan gravy on the side. We could not finish that first meal. Bear meat has the most god-awful aftertaste, and that greasy quality makes it just linger in your gut and on your palate for hours.

I offered bear meat to everyone I knew, and lots of folks took home packages. When asked if they wanted any more they all politely declined.

I know that this thread is about self-defense against bears, specifically debating the use of the .40 S&W for that purpose. If anything, the bear in my story probably needed some means of self-defense against me. All I will add is that I will never willingly take another bear. I will do my best to leave them alone and hope they will return the courtesy.

If I ever have to defend myself against a bear I will do my best with what I have on hand, whether it is a .44 magnum or my Gerber pocket knife. While doing so I will remember a modest size black bear that took 4 rounds of rifled slugs from 20 yards or less and still had powerful life remaining in him.

Sounds like it has worked before. IMHO, maybe it'd work for small black bears on the coast, but I'd personally want something more substantial.

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

.357 magnum vs 40 " short & weak"


5" M&P PRO
155gr. 9.0gr power pistol 1409 fps.
muzzle energy = 683

6" S&W 586
158gr xtp 17gr w-296 1207 fps.
Muzzle energy = 511

Niether is enough for bear, and maginal for midwestern whitetail deer....but hardy " short & weak if you hand load.

never understood why the 10mm and 357 are Thor's Hammer and the 40 is "short & weak" LOL

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

The .40 had it's origin in FBI testing and is a downloaded 10 mm with a 9mm frame. The FBI was happy with the 'FBI load' and didn't need a bigger, more powerful gun but did want a semi auto. They didn't like the size and kick of the 10mm. S&W found out they could shorten the cartridge and still get the FBI requirements, so they designed the.40 around that cartridge. It's shorter and downloaded hence the name 'Short & Weak'.

yep...I remember that.

meanwhile it seems load data books have watered down both 10mm and 357 load data over the years.

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NRA Life
USPSA/IPSC

Large handful of "Slim Jims". Throw in bears face. Bear eats, you run.

The knife was a Buck Model 110 folder and was for a time displayed on Chuck Buck's office wall. The man stabbed the bear in the neck. Must have hit a vital nerve or artery. The Model 110 has a blade about four inches long.

I think the same man was on one of the Discovery TV gun shop shows, the one set in Alaska, where the shop employees remind some of us of pawn shop people in New Jersey. Can't recall the name of the show. But he asked someone to do a proxy hunt for him, as he and his wife needed game meat to survive the winter and he is too old now to hunt. They mentioned the knife and bear incident.

Also, a Canadian man killed an attacking cougar on Vancouver Island with a similar knife from Schrade. I interviewed him for a magazine article, and he was later on a Discovery TV special profiling several men who had survived cougar attacks. This chap, named Anderson, was badly ripped up and his scalp was pulled almost off. I think he lost an eye. He told me that the hardest part was keeping the cat's teeth out of his throat while he got the knife out and opened it with both hands. He was 67 then, almost like the man who stabbed the bear. Some guys stay fit at that age.

My son knifed a big coydog that jumped him in his back yard in a suburb of a college town. He used a Benchmade one-hand opening knife with a tanto style blade. He says that being able to open the knife with one hand was a major element in his survival. He ripped the dog along the chest and stomach area and it disengaged and left at high speed. It was never found, but the wound was probably not survivable. He was wearing an expensive leather jacket that was pretty well ruined by blood, but most of the blood wasn't his. The coat did prevent him being injured worse.

His wife was pretty shocked to see him, but the blood washed off, and most was the dog's. He thinks he surprised this mutt at dusk, when it was stalking a sick horse in the yard. It came at him out of the darkness and it was quite a shock. Thankfully, he was wearing the knife in a belt pouch. He now wears a gun when he goes out at night.

Aw man, poor bear.

Corbett said the five-round limit had to do with a superstition that he had. He mentioned some other hunters' superstitions, none of which made much sense except to the men who held them. He also had a theory that killing a snake would bring him hunting luck.

I just want to know; why do so many people think bears are invincible? Even black bears, are rumored or said to be these giant tank like beasts that can not be brought down by man or god! They die just as easily as anything else with a well placed shot, if you double lung an animal.......... its going down. If an arrow from my Fred Bear "bear hunter" that probably hits about 240fps can drop a bear, then a hot loaded 40 cal is going to drop a bear.

The point being *with a well placed shot*.
Whilst bow hunting (or hunting with a pistol) one is advised to wait until *the shot* presents itself - Otherwise pass and wait...

A bear in charge mode will not present a thru the lungs shot - And is WAY more scary than dealing with the bear from a stand.

Besides - Not only are these things BIG - they're F A S T and many charges are because of surprising the animal - and it isn't the only participant that's surprised.

When wandering about in bear country (or where big cats hunt) I believe that a fairly hot 44 mag is MINIMUM for handguns. 12 gauge is better, and there are a lot of decent rifles for use on charging bears --- IF you get the chance to use one.

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In dog years I'm dead.

...well placed shot. That's ok for hunting, but you can't wait for a charging bear in the woods to present a good profile and even the coolest head is likely to fire a few not-so-well placed shots. There is an earlier poster who give an account of several 'well placed shots' not stopping the bear, and he was hunting for them so expected to see them.

And bears aren't invincible, but the chances of winning a fight are highly in the bears favor.

I never heard a rumor that a black bear was like a tank, but they are a good deal smaller than a grizzly or a brown.

Even though I've lived around bears for the last 15 years or so (Montana, Idaho, New Mexico) I've never had the occasion to be charged by one so I haven't had to shoot one in the act.

But, just thinking it through - wouldn't you actually have to HIT the bear to stop him?

I wonder how many folks could actually hit a moving bear head with a heavily loaded .44 or .45, especially a single action.

I know a .40 S&W will go through a windshield, a guy's head, a headrest, the back seat, and into the trunk of a car. I suspect it would at least get into a bear skull and bounce around.

I think a fast-shooting .40 cal semi-auto would do the trick.

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“What you got, ain’t new.”

At 5-15 feet, no handgun is adequate for griz. A slow retreat would be your best hope, while watching the bear. You won't get 3 shots at that distance, and probably not 2. At 5-15 feet, I wouldn't consider a .35 Whelen enough gun. If you do shoot a griz at 5 feet, try your best kung fu moves when he sinks his teeth in your face.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Well I think a 40 would be plenty for even the biggest bear.
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Provided it was 40mm.

how on earth did I not see "another B E A R..... omg thread" ??

My take.....I don't hunt where the griz, cape buffalo or other big critters roam. I do and have hunted where blackies, mountain lion, big wolves, and deadbeat thugabillys of the two legged kind roam. I carry a glock 23 at work, and I carry that same glock 23 in the bush because it only weighs 32 ounces loaded with Double Tap 200 gr hard cast gas check boollits that travel a mere 1050 fps from said glock. Is it as powerful as a 44mag nope, but I don't need a 44 mag to protect myself from anything that roams where I hunt. I carried a colt delta in 10mm for awhile but loaded it was something near 48 oz. I am currently collecting parts for a lightweight commander build (26 oz empty) in 10mm. It will work just fine for me.

Folks that depend on a .40 S&W to defend themselves against bear attacks are referred to in one of three ways... The Late, Before He Was Mauled, or The Lucky.

They are also twice as vicious. Trick with browns is to play dead....they'll lose interest and go off if they weren't hunting you for food.

Blackies......hah. They'll tear you to pieces even after you really are dead, and climbing trees cant save you.

Smaller.......just as deadly.

Yea!! A bear thread!

Why go into the woods with 10mm Special (aka .40 cal) when you can take a real 10mm?

Bears are really the domain of rifle calibers (unless you mean those cuddly Southern teddy bear types), but I'd rather have 10mm, .41 cal or .44 Mag. where bear are active.

I think Lobo's first mistake was taking a heart/lung shot on a dangerous animal. A shoulder shot is normally recommended. The idea is to break the shoulder and limit ability to charge.

It's possible that his slugs also weren't giving enough penetration. He's very lucky the bear didn't charge.

Guys, I am NOT going into bear country without my 44 mag. It would do me not good sitting in the safe while I am arm wrestling with the bear. Hell, I might even have the 40 as my backup gun and the 357 mag as back up to that. Some of those bears are big, mean and ugly.

My WORD TO THE WISH......trade your 40 cal. and get a 44 mag or bigger if you are planning on visiting bear country with one gun.

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Ricky
Coastal GA

You mean like this?


Charlie

I am being 100% Serious.

Don't laugh at me.

When I am in bear country I carry this.


full (2).jpg


Jennings M22. Never fails, always accurate out to 5 yards. and after the bear mauls me beyond recognition, it puts a quick end to my suffering :-p

This is becoming my standard reply, the reason I have a handgun is bears. Black bears. Based on the recommendations from the local cowboys and the local government trapper who have all actually killed charging black bears with their handguns the choices are 40 S&W, .357 and 10mm. I went with a .357.

Sure a shotgun with slugs is a whole lot better, but I needed to be able to carry something on my person at all times and still be able to do my outside work. Can't easily carry a long gun and still do manual labor w/o setting it down.

Also the folks suggest not trying for head shots, bear skulls are too tough.

And for the record, I'm not talking about going out in the woods or hiking, just doing normal day to day work around the house and farm here so not really wild but rural.

FWIW wildlife officers have already killed bears in our town this year and I'll get a much better report on local bear activity when I talk to the woolgrowers at the annual meeting this month. Typically by mid July sheep herders have killed between 50-100 bears attacking sheep and scared off more that they never were able to kill. How many they've had gives me an idea of how many I'll have to deal with in another few weeks.

Last year we had over 5 on one small area less than 3 miles square and it was very stressful.

For your information Black Bears are NOT vegetarian, they are severe killers of sheep. One range flock locally was losing 2-3 sheep per night for all 90 days they were on range to bears last year. And the herders were shooting the bears as fast as they could. They will also kill cattle and calves and have done so locally not to mention smaller prey like taking out a huge number of chickens at a local farm and goats and even a full grown sow pig.

They've also been known to eat glazed do nuts.

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Forum consigliere

Sorry I missed out on all the fun.

Bears are omnivores! Eat both meat and veggies. Grizzlies eat more meat and black bears less. Grizzlies largely eat MOTHS when they come out of hibernation, followed by ground squirrels (hence the big "hump" of muscle between the shoulders). Black bears, (evolution-wise) are meat eaters reverting back to plants.

Black bears are more likely to kill and eat you than grizzly. A grizzly is like a Marine=remove the threat (often with prejudice!) and move on. Comparing a black bear to a grizzly is like comparing a Sherman Tank to the Enterprise!

Brown bears are now thought to be merely better-fed grizzlies. Texas== black bears are now Ursus americanus==Grinnell once described 81 "species" of black bear in N.A. BTW Polar bears and the panda are now considered in the genus "Ursus" also--based on genetic relationships.

Many, if not most, livestock attacks are scavenging on naturally killed sheep. Although there are "rogues". Ranchers and herders don't get reimbursed for natural deaths ("rural welfare"). Interestingly, one of the only two "proven" wolf attacks on humans was likely a predatory black bear.

Biggest black bear I've seen is about 650lbs (Calif state record). The biggest I've personally handled was 429, when we trapped him. Most California yearlings were 200-250 lbs.

My personal opinion is that losing livestock to predators is part of the cost of doing business if you graze on public land for nearly free. It should be noted that, in Ireland, foxes are blamed for killing sheep. But, everywhere (including New Zealand which has no natural predators on sheep), the overall mortality rate is about the same.

Take home: Both can be killers. Both are hard to stop, grizzlies more so. They are incredibly fast! (I've been charged-I KNOW how fast they can be!). There are no answers=make the choice that seems best to you.

My choice: Pepper spray, followed by a hot loaded 45 Colt Blackhawk (300 gr hardcast at about 1200 fps)

I have encountered many Black bears,and I have never had one even act like it was going to charge, I did however, have a black bear climb a tree on me (there is a thread about it on here somewhere)

I love bear threads, they are hilarious.

Yes a black bear is more likely to eat you after an attack, but they arent more likely to attack. BTW, I carry a 357 and I have no doubts it will stop anything I need it to in my neck of the woods, a good alternative is bear spray, where their olfactory glands are so sensitive it absolutely tears them up.

I for one, just can't understand why anyone would trade good 40 S&W ammo for beer. Ammo is harder and harder to get these days. Beer is on every corner.

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RIP Shipmate

I call BS on this one. Sorry, it's not a "naturally occurring death" when the herders catch the bears coming in on the bedded down sheep and have pictures of them tearing out the udders of still alive and screaming ewes. And ranchers are not compensated for the deaths at all in many areas no matter the cause.

Sorry-Had to wait until I got back to the office and could access my files.

I'll have to call "liar, liar=pants on fire" on your "BS".

According to NASS (the National Agriculture Statistics Service) of the USDA, using figures SUPPLIED BY THE LIVESTOCK GROWERS THEMSELVES, bear only account for 2.6% of the predator losses in the U.S. That's not total losses, but 2.6% of the losses caused by predators. Bears trailed behind Foxes, domestic dogs, coyotes, bobcats, and eagles==both sheep or lambs Those are national statistics, again as reported by the ranchers and herders themselves through their associations=which would hardly be an unbiased group. In Colorado, bears were responsible for 1.4 deaths per 1000 deaths. Wyoming was 2 deaths per 100 predator-caused deaths.

Note that I said "Many, if not most". I never said ALL attacks weren't predatory. So don't put words into my mouth. Just READ what I say.

BTW: I've never met a herder in the West who doesn't have a rifle handy. Seems kind of sicko to take pictures of a screaming ewe rather than to put it out of its misery. (and I'd shoot the bear rather than take its photo!)

We've had two attacks by black bears this year in MN and one I've heard of in WI. It does happen, but I'll admit this is an unusual year. That's why I like my 629 Mountain Gun -- light enough to wear all day, heavy enough to handle bear sized loads. That said, I'm still looking forward to getting my Delta Elite back from the Colt Custom Shop.

I just picked up a new .40 caliber handgun. Now I just gotta find me some bears..........

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Recycled Bricklayer

Take my advice, find little ones.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Agreed coyotes are a bigger predator of lambs but not necessarily of sheep. In 1999 (latest year for which NASS data are available) 33.3% of the predator losses to sheep in Colorado were from bears and 7.8% of the lamb losses. The same amount as from coyotes for adult sheep. (33.3%) Lamb losses are higher to coyotes than bears but in CO the progression of predators on sheep is coyotes and bears are tied for top place with 33.3% each then dogs and mountain lions are tied with 13.3% each then the rest are lumped together. Also, NASS does not count lambs until they are tailed or docked, so there are losses that are not accounted for. I have to fill out the NASS forms all the time and they are specific about what predator losses you cannot include.

http://usda01.library.cornell.edu/us...05-05-2000.pdf

Yes most herders have rifles but they also carry sidearms and yes they do tend to shoot the bears and the ewes and then take the pictures. But we ere seeing the evening's kills as the pictures got sent to the ranch owner.

You also have to know that a huge number of sheep in Colorado are in the big feedlots over by Greeley, where predation is practically nil. So looking at statewide losses is misleading. I am trying to find the county by county predator loss figures, will report back if I can find them but the reality is that the losses typically occur in the mountains and range and are significantly higher than the overall numbers because of so many sheep being concentrated in places where there are no major predators.

Like it!!!!!!!!

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Ricky
Coastal GA

Can't find county by county sheep predation statistics. Only info I have is that the CO DOW indicates that bear populations have boomed since 2000, so the NASS data are inaccurate and I know that sheep deaths are higher now than they were reported then just from talking to the range flock guys. I will keep looking for the county stats.