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Old 03-18-2012, 02:09 PM
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Default "The Newhall Incident" 4 dead LEO's In 4 Minutes

I just found a used book on this 1970 shootout by a Chief John Anderson of the Highway Patrol. Four Ca. highway Patrolman were killed by two ex-cons while being pulled over in SoCal. A citizen saw the third cop go down, ran up, grabbed his revolver and shot the bad guy with the last shot, wounding him. I'm halfway done with this tragic true story that apparently changed police tactics in the future. I think I recall reading something about this also motivating police to practice with .357 ammo in their guns as opposed to .38 specials. I can't remember exactly, though. This book is OK except for one thing that happens alot in non fiction books. There is dialogue injected that in no way could have been told to the author since the people talking were both killed. It makes me question the rest of the book when authors make these assumptions.
There's lots of current and retired LEO's here. What do you recall about this horrible incident? It also brings to mind the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami where things had to be relearned as far as dealing with armed or potentially armed criminals. The author of this book has hinted to overconfidence on the part of the officers killed, but we'll see. Here's a video with interviews of people involved:
http://www.scvtv.com/html/scvhs040510btv.html

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Old 03-18-2012, 02:35 PM
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I just googled the said incident and man-oh-man! Officers were 22-24 years old with under two years with the CHP. I wouldn't guess as overconfidence as much as inexperience. JMO though. Sometimes you wonder about "creative license" with some authors. I read enough on the search to make me not want to learn more of this story. Enjoy your read............
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:48 PM
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Massad Ayoob did an excellent write-up many years ago for American Handgunner. Lots of lessons learned for the cops, and recognition for an armed citizen who managed to dent the forehead of one of the killers with a .38 S&W round from a surplus Enfield.

Both killers wound up committing suicide - Twinning at the scene of a hostage situation, and Davis in his prison cell many years later.

http://www.chp.ca.gov/memorial/newhall.html
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:11 PM
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I remember the Newhall Incident,and like many other hard learned lessons,including the Miami shootout,it did cause much needed changes to be made in armament,training,and tactics. Something like this usually happens about every 20 to 25 years that has a tendency to quickly awaken the sleepers.
One civilian near the scene took one of the downed officer's revolvers and fired one shot at the perpetrators,probably single action,but missed.This incident took place during the beginning of what was to become a tumultuous era for law enforcement nationwide.
Although training and preparedness is so much better now than then,there have been many lives lost in the process of getting where we are today.
We must remember that even as law enforcement continues to improve,so does the criminal element.We can never train enough to be too far ahead of them.
Miami,Waco,Newhall,the Soledad Brothers,and all the way back to the OK Corral,has given us lessons that should not be forgotton, and the high profile gunfights of the past should always be part of the curriculum for police academy recruits,along with the politics of the era.
These are what brought us to the point where we are today,with current weapons and tactical training.Unfortunately,there will be more to be learned and to prepare for in the future.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:43 PM
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I lived in the area at the time. Ate at that resturant. I remember the next day well. I was in a gun shop and buying a new s&w model 60. There was a "POed" off duty chip there that I was talking to about it. Of course he knew them. To took me aside and asked me if I wanted to take that gun home with me-------
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:40 AM
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I started my LE career in the mid 70s. The "Newhall Incident" was still raw and fresh. It had a profound effect on firearms training in the West. The old slow fire target training was eventually replaced with training more related to real world needs and situations. The phrase "what you do in training, you will do on the street" finally gained acceptance.

During my time in LE we went from shooting 38 wadcutters only during qualification a few times a year to training with the round you would actually carry on duty. We added actual training to the shoots instead of just shooting for score. Night shooting and shoot, don't shoot training evolved around that time.

That horrible crime resulted in life saving changes to LE training that carries over to today.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:47 AM
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I'm not a LEO, but began my career as an EMT in early 1975, and a lot of cops were still talking about the lessons learned from this tragic event. I remember one older officer talking bitterly about how he had seen spent brass in the hands and pockets of officers who had been killed in shoot-outs, and how the rangemaster and administration would give you a hard time if you didn't turn in all of your brass in good condition at target practice. I found that incredible - throwing dollars to save a dime has never made any sense to me. As I was soon to learn from the Army - the more you sweat in training, the less you'll bleed in battle.

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Old 03-19-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Miami,Waco,Newhall
I started my career in that era, 1974. Ended up being a firearms instructer and worked on officer safety.

Those were all extremely rare incidents. We (I) stress more on training based on the "Onion Field" something that is much more common.

Common as to, most incidents will occur at traffic stops and domestic disturbances.

I stressed training with you service revolver/pistol. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

We pushed weapon retention, weapon takeaways, and drawing and firing showing even if the bandit has the drop on you, the advantage was in your court.

Even if you have a long gun, (rifel or shotgun) chances are its in the car. You don't take it to the drivers door to write a ticket. You don't carry it to the family disturbance. Its left in the car which isn't (or shouldn't be) parked in front of the house.

When I was an FTO I made my rookys read the Onion Field and Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

I liked Jordon's idea that a cop should practice drawing and getting off the one shot fast and accuratly.

An example: We would go to the range. One guy would draw and point his gun at a target. He was told when he saw you start to draw he was to fire at his target. A huge majority of the time the one doing the drawing got his round off before the one who had the drop on his target.

The idea is to draw and shoot while the other guy is talking.

It's kind of like breathing while shooting. We know that you hold your breath, either on purpose or unconsciencly while shooting. You can't pull the trigger while breathing. Same thing, you can talk and pull the trigger while talking, you have to stop, both breathing and talking the instent you pull the trigger.

Plus no one expects someone to draw his revolver/pistol while they have a gun pointed at them. You have the avantage of supprise.

Same with weapon take aways, get them talking the rip the gun from their hand (assuming your at bad breath distance). No one expects it, suprise puts the ball in your court.

Sure if you have the time, and you know what you're getting into, take a long gun, but you never know. You hardly ever know what you're getting into. You always have your service revolver, practice, never stop practicing. Confidence in you service revolver and you're abilities goes a long ways with it comes to "officer safety".

And something else I always stressed, practice with one hand. Everyone teaches and practices two hand shooting, but in my 20 years of LE, I can't think of one time I drew my revolver (not fired it, but drew it to have it ready) that I had my other hand free.

There is always something in one hand, Ticket book, door knob, flashligth, another bandit, mirror (for building searches), etc etc.

And nothing is more useless then a shotgun or rifle while you're trying to handcuff a bandit.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
I started my career in that era, 1974. Ended up being a firearms instructer and worked on officer safety.

Those were all extremely rare incidents. We (I) stress more on training based on the "Onion Field" something that is much more common.

Common as to, most incidents will occur at traffic stops and domestic disturbances.

I stressed training with you service revolver/pistol. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

We pushed weapon retention, weapon takeaways, and drawing and firing showing even if the bandit has the drop on you, the advantage was in your court.

Even if you have a long gun, (rifel or shotgun) chances are its in the car. You don't take it to the drivers door to write a ticket. You don't carry it to the family disturbance. Its left in the car which isn't (or shouldn't be) parked in front of the house.

When I was an FTO I made my rookys read the Onion Field and Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

I liked Jordon's idea that a cop should practice drawing and getting off the one shot fast and accuratly.

An example: We would go to the range. One guy would draw and point his gun at a target. He was told when he saw you start to draw he was to fire at his target. A huge majority of the time the one doing the drawing got his round off before the one who had the drop on his target.

The idea is to draw and shoot while the other guy is talking.

It's kind of like breathing while shooting. We know that you hold your breath, either on purpose or unconsciencly while shooting. You can't pull the trigger while breathing. Same thing, you can talk and pull the trigger while talking, you have to stop, both breathing and talking the instent you pull the trigger.

Plus no one expects someone to draw his revolver/pistol while they have a gun pointed at them. You have the avantage of supprise.

Same with weapon take aways, get them talking the rip the gun from their hand (assuming your at bad breath distance). No one expects it, suprise puts the ball in your court.

Sure if you have the time, and you know what you're getting into, take a long gun, but you never know. You hardly ever know what you're getting into. You always have your service revolver, practice, never stop practicing. Confidence in you service revolver and you're abilities goes a long ways with it comes to "officer safety".

And something else I always stressed, practice with one hand. Everyone teaches and practices two hand shooting, but in my 20 years of LE, I can't think of one time I drew my revolver (not fired it, but drew it to have it ready) that I had my other hand free.

There is always something in one hand, Ticket book, door knob, flashligth, another bandit, mirror (for building searches), etc etc.

And nothing is more useless then a shotgun or rifle while you're trying to handcuff a bandit.
Good job.One hand shooting is highly likely,and in many cases training in that area is too often overlooked.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:03 PM
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I remember when the FBI started putting on one day "street survival" seminars around 1974 and this was covered. I was just a young troop then. There was another incident involving a couple of Border Patrol officers named Newton and Azrak about the same time; they were taken hostage at a checkpoint in southern CA and executed.

An outfit called Calibre Press took the initiative starting around 1979 or so and put on 2 and 3 day seminars on officer survival. They were long on slide and video presentations, and the first hour or so of the program showed more pictures of dead cops than anyone wanted to see. In later years audio and video recordings of situations gone bad were the stuff of nightmares. It was a real attention getter and motivator; I still have some of the books and notes from those classes. Those programs probably saved an awful lot of lives, along with body armor and better tactics.

It's interesting to see how much attention gets focussed on who has the coolest gun even today instead of mindset, training, and tactics.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:09 PM
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Didn't that incident lead to wide use of revolver speedloaders?
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
Even if you have a long gun, (rifel or shotgun) chances are its in the car. You don't take it to the drivers door to write a ticket. You don't carry it to the family disturbance. Its left in the car which isn't (or shouldn't be) parked in front of the house.
That got me curious. Why not? Where should you park it?

In the 20 years that I've lived here, I've had cops here 5 times. Neighbors piled garbage in my yard, someone played mailbox baseball, air compressor was stolen, tag was stolen off my trailer and a dying cordless-phone battery self-dialed 911.

All five times they parked in front of the house. Made sense to me.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:22 PM
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In the west the speedloaders didn't gain acceptance until the mid to late 70s and early 80s. We had to hide our speedloaders in our pockets at the two agencies I worked for at that time. Around 1978 my last department finally acknowledged speedloaders as a good thing an allowed belt carry.

I don't recall Newhall having much to do with speedloader use. I think it was more of a better technology thing as the newer designs of speedloaders worked well and there was no reason not to use them. Speedloaders have been around since before the last century but were most popular from the late 70s until the flow of autos into LE.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:28 PM
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That got me curious. Why not? Where should you park it?

In the 20 years that I've lived here, I've had cops here 5 times. Neighbors piled garbage in my yard, someone played mailbox baseball, air compressor was stolen, tag was stolen off my trailer and a dying cordless-phone battery self-dialed 911.

All five times they parked in front of the house. Made sense to me.
The calls you made would be considered low risk. Parking at the house to meet the citizen is not uncommon. Disturbances and alarms however require more caution. Best to park a few houses away and walk up so you can see and hear what's going on, and the people in the house don't see you pull up and start shooting at you.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy View Post
I started my career in that era, 1974. Ended up being a firearms instructer and worked on officer safety.

Those were all extremely rare incidents. We (I) stress more on training based on the "Onion Field" something that is much more common.

Common as to, most incidents will occur at traffic stops and domestic disturbances.

I stressed training with you service revolver/pistol. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR GUN.

We pushed weapon retention, weapon takeaways, and drawing and firing showing even if the bandit has the drop on you, the advantage was in your court.

Even if you have a long gun, (rifel or shotgun) chances are its in the car. You don't take it to the drivers door to write a ticket. You don't carry it to the family disturbance. Its left in the car which isn't (or shouldn't be) parked in front of the house.

When I was an FTO I made my rookys read the Onion Field and Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.

I liked Jordon's idea that a cop should practice drawing and getting off the one shot fast and accuratly.

An example: We would go to the range. One guy would draw and point his gun at a target. He was told when he saw you start to draw he was to fire at his target. A huge majority of the time the one doing the drawing got his round off before the one who had the drop on his target.

The idea is to draw and shoot while the other guy is talking.

It's kind of like breathing while shooting. We know that you hold your breath, either on purpose or unconsciencly while shooting. You can't pull the trigger while breathing. Same thing, you can talk and pull the trigger while talking, you have to stop, both breathing and talking the instent you pull the trigger.

Plus no one expects someone to draw his revolver/pistol while they have a gun pointed at them. You have the avantage of supprise.

Same with weapon take aways, get them talking the rip the gun from their hand (assuming your at bad breath distance). No one expects it, suprise puts the ball in your court.

Sure if you have the time, and you know what you're getting into, take a long gun, but you never know. You hardly ever know what you're getting into. You always have your service revolver, practice, never stop practicing. Confidence in you service revolver and you're abilities goes a long ways with it comes to "officer safety".

And something else I always stressed, practice with one hand. Everyone teaches and practices two hand shooting, but in my 20 years of LE, I can't think of one time I drew my revolver (not fired it, but drew it to have it ready) that I had my other hand free.

There is always something in one hand, Ticket book, door knob, flashligth, another bandit, mirror (for building searches), etc etc.

And nothing is more useless then a shotgun or rifle while you're trying to handcuff a bandit.

Nice post, good job.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
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The calls you made would be considered low risk. Parking at the house to meet the citizen is not uncommon. Disturbances and alarms however require more caution. Best to park a few houses away and walk up so you can see and hear what's going on, and the people in the house don't see you pull up and start shooting at you.
We had 2 Deputy's killed locally answering a rural domestic call. The Deputy's drove up to the house 5 minutes apart and got shot before they exited their cars fully by a lump with a rifle.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraigwy
Even if you have a long gun, (rifel or shotgun) chances are its in the car. You don't take it to the drivers door to write a ticket. You don't carry it to the family disturbance. Its left in the car which isn't (or shouldn't be) parked in front of the house.

That got me curious. Why not? Where should you park it?
Domestic disturbances is one of the worst calls you can go on. You never know what you're getting into.

You park quietly down the street, out of sight. You walk up to the residence listening and observing. Expect the worse.

If the bandit is intent on bad behavier, you'll have a better chance. If you just pull up to the house, and the intent is bad behavier, you're stuck.

Along the same lines, if disturbances when the things go bad, its not normally a shooting situation (but you never know) but there is a good chance you're gonna end up in a wrestling match, a long gun will be in the way.

But as I said, that's the life of a street cop. And for the street cop a long gun would be more in the way then anything else.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:39 PM
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Google "Hayward Brown, John Boyd and Mark Bethune". Any Atlanta, Georgia cops remember Boyd and Bethune?
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:26 PM
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I remember training we received from larger agencies using the Newhall information. I seem to remember a LE training film. It was a violent, ugly incident. There was also some training regarding a deputy sheriff called, if I remember right, the Norco incident. It was about a bank robbery and the subsequent loss of an officer. These two incidents were used to train officers for a long time.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:43 PM
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I was still in rookie school when speedloaders were first authorized for my organization, At the time we carried S&W Model 10's with 4" heavy barrels. Speedloaders were NOT issued but those of us then "buffs" hit the local blue vendor forthwith. Only ones then available (to the best of my knowledge) were those made by the Dade Screw Company. (Might not be exact name of company.) They were cylinders that were surrounded by a spring. Rounds were held at the primer end and pushed past the spring to load. Functional? Yes. Perfect? No. But better than drop pouches, for certain.

BTW, at the time we still carried 158 ball ammo. Hollow point ammo did follow soon thereafter. Do not recall what that was exactly.

Be safe.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:28 PM
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I just heard on fox news that today in southern mexico 12 police officers were masacured I think driveing to a scene where just prior 10 severed heads were found! Wonder what kind and how much training they get down there? Would ya say things are out of hand?
Twelve police ambushed, killed in Mexico drug zone - Yahoo! News South Africa

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Old 03-19-2012, 11:41 PM
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Picture of the slain officers here:

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Old 03-20-2012, 12:21 AM
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In 1980 I was working for a city police department.
One of our officers got into a shootout with an armed robber in a convenience store; they both emptied their guns at each other shooting back and forth over the top of the clerks counter.
The bad guy ran out the door while our officer was crouched down trying to reload from his dump pouch.
The next week we were issued speedloaders.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:49 AM
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If I recall the Ayoob narrative, one of the officers in the Newhall Tragedy had already been wounded, and was trying to reload his revolver, while crouched behind his vehicle. Range training in those days required officers to empty the brass into their hand, then shove the empties into tight pants pockets............so the range wasn't covered in spent brass. The officer should have dumped his spent cases on the ground to allow a faster reload, but he followed his training, and was trying to put the brass in his pocket when the bad guy outflanked him and shot him in the head.

Range rules changed soon after.

When I was a rookie in the early 80's, we trained at a private range owned by the city in a remote area. All stages with revolvers and shotguns involved firing until empty, then re-holstering empty guns and changing targets. It finally dawned on our supervisor that if someone with a grudge popped up unannounced and opened fire as soon as we stopped shooting, NO one there would be able to return fire. Speedloaders replaced dump pouches almost immediately.

Range rules changed soon after. Thankfully, before someone got killed over bad policy.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:52 AM
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There are lessons learned from every shootout, shooting or officer injury. The problem is that every situation has a different element that changes the perspective or the plan of action.

Sadly officers do not receive the training today that they once did. Most no longer park a couple doors down from a crime in progress or a domestic call. That alone gets a number of LE shot during the course of a year. Many are not POST certified to use the long guns in their car although most will never have the opportunity to use them.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
BTW, at the time we still carried 158 ball ammo. Hollow point ammo did follow soon thereafter. Do not recall what that was exactly.
When I first hired on, we were issued 158 gr RN, cast and reloaded by trustees...........I said "forget that", went home and fired up the reloader and carried 150 grn LSWCs. I still have that mold today (Lyman 358477). Carried it until I retired, and still use it in my CC pocket revolver.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:02 AM
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Didn't that incident lead to wide use of revolver speedloaders?
Yes it did. Much faster than struggling with reloading one or two at a time from belt loops, or dump pouches.

A little more awkward to carry, but not much. We started with the rubber Safariland ones that worked much better with a silicone spray coating. A few weeks back I found some of them in a box of old stuff.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:18 AM
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The calls you made would be considered low risk. Parking at the house to meet the citizen is not uncommon. Disturbances and alarms however require more caution. Best to park a few houses away and walk up so you can see and hear what's going on, and the people in the house don't see you pull up and start shooting at you.
Okay, that makes sense.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:37 AM
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[QUOTE=The Big D;136415758]I was still in rookie school when speedloaders were first authorized for my organization, At the time we carried S&W Model 10's with 4" heavy barrels. Speedloaders were NOT issued but those of us then "buffs" hit the local blue vendor forthwith. Only ones then available (to the best of my knowledge) were those made by the Dade Screw Company. (Might not be exact name of company.) They were cylinders that were surrounded by a spring. Rounds were held at the primer end and pushed past the spring to load. Functional? Yes. Perfect? No. But better than drop pouches, for certain.

BTW, at the time we still carried 158 ball ammo. Hollow point ammo did follow soon thereafter. Do not recall what that was exactly.

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I remember the "Dade Speedloaders". If dropped, all six rounds flew in six directions!
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Old 03-20-2012, 11:42 AM
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I carried Dades for years. Still have them in fact.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:09 PM
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Ah, yes--358477s. The lead pot is warming as I speak.

Safari land Comp IIs rock.
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2012, 04:12 PM
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I started in LE in the spring of 1971. We were issued revolvers that would get you killed, junk Colt Police Positives that were left over from the WWII ordance plants.

I purchased a Model 19 for a belt gun and a Model 36 for a ankle gun. I was the first officer to buy Banchi Speed strips and carry them in my dump pouches. The first qualification after I bought them, there was a lot of complaining that I had "cheated" by using them. My Chief Ranger as if I carried them on duty and when I told him "yes" he said no problem to use them in qualification.

I always found that my agency trained their officers in a Urban LE Setting and then deployed them to a Rural LE Setting. Cost several Rangers their lives.

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Old 03-20-2012, 06:02 PM
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Ah, yes--358477s. The lead pot is warming as I speak.
I've killed everything from moose to buffalo with that bullet in a Model 28, and snakes, deer, and a horse in my 642.

I got a lot of faith in that bullet. Also shoot it in competition out of my M64 ICORE gun.
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:20 PM
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Just completed a 3 day class today on Officer Invovled Shootings. Instructor is a retired homicide detective from Miami Dade who actually worked the FBI shooting from 86. Was really good to speak to someone who was actualy there. So much internet generated **** out there when comes to these shootings.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:35 AM
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for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by edw794 View Post
for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.
And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:28 PM
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And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.
Kind of hard to prove a negative. I wasn't there, I don't know for sure but I would think if the officer policed his brass it would be in the report. I can not think of a reason it wouldnt be do to every shooting involving LE (and anyone else) the guns, brass and bullets are gathered to see who did what and with what.

As a Uniform CSI instructor, if there is no indication the brass was listed as found in the pockets of the officers, I would have to assume it wasn't in the pockets.

So my question is, what does the report say? Where was the brass found?

I do remember when I first started, in training and qualification, we policed our brass after words.

Reminds me of the story: There was a movie playing in a theater, some old black and white movie. A lady shot a guy several times, emptying the gun, with a 25 ACP. The bandit kept coming and the starlet says "what do I do, what do I do"?

Apparently there was a LE firearms instructor in the theater, with a loud booming voice yells out "police your brass and move to the 25 yard line".
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.
I suppose Mr. Ayoob posted the department's training manual or general order that stated officers are supposed to empty their brass into their hands and put it in their pocket at the range as proof that they did that during the shooting or trained that way? What was Ayoob's evidence? I'm guessing it was anecdotal.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:17 PM
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The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:34 PM
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And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.

One post up...is that sufficient "evidence" for ya?
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:28 PM
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One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him.
Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.
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Old 03-23-2012, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Massad Ayoob View Post
The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.
wow i have never felt starstruck but this one post did it for me thx for your input massad.
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:01 AM
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Another Urban Legend put to rest. Well done!
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Old 09-14-2012, 07:40 PM
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In the current AH Mr. Ayoob has a very interesting article on this shooting.
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:15 PM
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There were a lot of changes after Newhall, but many of them weren't for the better and that was the main reason it was repeated in Miami in 1986.

There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo. It's bound to happen again.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:47 PM
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Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.
Apparently you must be thinking of another LAPD than the one I am thinking of.....
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:11 AM
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There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo.
This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:39 PM
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This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.
Funny, this is what I heard after Newhall. The problem is that the people who analize the disasters don't always know how to read the evidence because they aren't as qualified as they thought. This was the big problem after Newhall, most of the "experts" that jumped in with their advice had no idea of what they were talking about. If they did there probably would have never been a Miami shootout. I too have been in some real potential messes, where things did go horribly wrong, and still not one person got hurt.

But, in a worst case scenario we could have all been dead. History has taught us a lot, but we fail to look at the cases where nothing went wrong, or there was no massacre of law enforcement officers. After Newhall there were 'great improvements', but how many officers died between then and Miami because those improvements were actually worse than most of what we had before? One or two officers getting killed doesn't make national headlines like a "MASSACRE", and until the next mass tradgedy we won't know how bad the last "improvements" are. But we will find out someday.

By the way, of there are official reports, other than the ones released to the public or other law enforcement agencies about what happened that day, I'd sure like to see them. That's where the acceptance you mentioned came from.
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