Hesitant to ask as my Father was a Cavalryman.
What is the differences between Light and Heavy Cavalry?
Weapons??
Thanks,
Jimmy

I think that when they got too fat to ride their horses they were the heavy cavalry. Just a guess.

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Dennis
He's got a gun!

Heavy Cav normally were shock troops. They carried heavier weapons, cannons and such, with wagons for company trains (supplies) and such. They could stay in the field for long periods of time without re-supply.

Light Cav was Recon. They traveled light and counldn't stay in the field long period of time.

Then there were Dragoons and Mounted Infantry...

Can someone sum these up?

Mounted infantry is just a method of moving infantry troops. Came in handy during the plains indian wars.

Kind of like todays Mech Infantry vs Light Infantry.

[QUOTE=Texas Star;136434943]Then there were Dragoons and Mounted Infantry...

Can someone sum these up?

IIRC (?) Mounted Infantry were foot soldiers that rode horses to the battle site, ds-mounted and fought on foot.

Dragoon were trained to fight from horse back with sabre & pistol

Interesting to note that "cavalrymen" were limited to something like 5'8" and 120 pounds or so. Any larger than that and they exceeded the load limit on the horse.

Those small fellers couldn't take the recoil of the 45-70-500 cartridges in their light carbines. The army reduced the carbine ammo to 45-405-55 so they could get them to shoot the old trapdoors.

They were each issued 12 rounds of practice ammo per year during the Indian wars too. Statistics showed it took over a 1000 rounds per dead Indian. Wonder why?

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Eccentric old coot

My useless info to share on the topic: Cavalry marches are always in 6/8 to match the natural rhythm of horses.

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Soli Deo Gloria

I once was in the 3/4 Cav about 45 years ago.

But we didn't have any horses, although there were Buffalo present.

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

Iggy is right. The max load on a Civil War Cavalry Horse was 200 lbs. Total up all equipment and subtract from 200. That'll give the max weight of the trooper. The Civil War average was about 5'2" to 5'6" with the max at 120 lbs.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

I had a couple of relatives in the Cavalry during the Civil war, part of the 2nd NY Veteran Cavalry also known as the Empire Light Cavalry. All of the men in it were pretty light. I know they were pretty much used for pursuing confederate cavalry and their biggest achievement was as part of the Red River campaign. I know from all of the muster rolls and some of the what they actually had assigned that they didn't even carry long arms most of the times, just sabres and revolvers.

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Vaya con Dios

IIRC the distinction between cavalry and dragoons was that cavalry was only supposed to fight mounted, dragoons were trained to fight mounted or dismounted.
Mounted infantry rode whatever was available-mules, often.

WRONG, Everyone knows that the "Dragoons" were the largest ugliest and meanest fighters who wore dresses and makeup into battle.

The "Mounted Infantry" were usually mounted at the rear
and often had a difficult time marching. So they got horses.

Wait...does this mean that all of those movies where John Wayne played a cavalryman were a bunch of bunk? Say it ain't so!

Tim

OK, Tim. IT AIN'T SO!!

I suppose there may have been a few "larger than life" heroes allowed in the Cavalry..

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Eccentric old coot

Actually, the original distinction came about during the Napoleanic Wars -- Light cavalry carried sabers or lances, heavy calvalry carried both sabers and either a pistol or short stocked musket/rifle. Light cavalry were used as a screening force or for reconnaissance; heavy cavalry were mobile shock troops, designed to break thru enemy infantry forces (specifically to break "squares" of infantry").
Dragoons were heavy cavalry. Marshall Ney and Murat were two of the most famous cavalry generals of the day and responsible for the tactics used. There are some incredible descriptions of Marshall Ney's
dragoons trying to break the British squares near Quatre Bas last in the day at the battle of Waterloo (just as Blucher's Prussians were marching to save the day) -- These beautiful huge horses (almost the size of draft horses) hurtling towards the British squares and then rearing back and trembling as they approached the serried rows of bayonets -- well worth reading about.

A dragoon has a squared trigger guard.

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Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

And Then there was the First of the Ninth, AIR CAV.

I Love the smell of Napalm in the Morning...

IT IS the smell of Victory...


Sorry could not resist....

Custer, though questionable as a hero, was a bigger guy. JB Hood was a large guy, a NB Forrest was described as a mountain of a man. There were a few.

[QUOTE=jimmyj;136435827]To imply that the NY Cavalry Regiments were cowards is offensive to their memory, their ancestors memory and historically absurd. As for your remarks characterizing "the greatest cavalry the world had ever known" hell, apparently they couldn't read a map. At Gettysburg, Lee didn't even know where his cavalry was most of the time. Among other cavalry regiments, those from New York (some of the oldest) served well documented distinguished service to our nation in many engagements through many wars. The Civil War was merely one of them, and their conduct throughout was no less than honorable.

Cheers;
Lefty

Gentlemen, it would probably be wise to not restart the Civil War again. Suffice to say there were great units and poor units on both sides. We all have our opinions, but safe to say we've fought together more than we have been apart....and the world was saved by ALL of us in WWII.

The memory of any trooper who served on either side, deserves respect for their honor, loyalty, personal convictions and for their service. Cowardice, is another issue and that remark I found offensive, considering the historical facts of the matter are contrary to any such suggestion.

Cheers;
Lefty

Another point of interest was the old McClellan saddle. It has a split seat. The backbone of the horse was suppose to fit up into that slot and fill it in. The saddles were fit to the horses and the trooper came in second as far as comfort.

If the saddle din't fit the horse that split seat was a real rubbin' point for the rider if you know what I mean.

I took a bunch good ol boy Cavalry re-enactors on a jaunt from Cheyenne to Ft. Laramie for the dedication of Old Bedlam back in the early 60's. Since I was the civilian scout, I din't ride one of them ricky-tick army saddles.

Them boys was soft and their horses was fat and soft too. Their saddles set up high on them horses and by the time we camped, them ol boys was a wee mite chapped in some sensitive places.

I give one of them fellers a bottle of Old Spice and said that might help.

Well it worked alright, it took all of about a weeks sting out in about 30 seconds.

An angry fat guy tryin' to hold his pants up with one hand and comin' at you with a saber in the other hand ain't a purty sight.

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Eccentric old coot

This is where my 1904 Mc Clellan "rides".


Cheers;

Lefty,

Good lookin' rig. All you need is a set of GI issue saddle bags and you'd be set. The carbine socket woulda been history by 1904.

We use to have about a dozen of those up in the hay mow in the barn. My uncles and cousins either sold them or threw them in the dump.

If you ain't got that buckle and straps adjusted just right you can sure wind up with the inside of your knees chapped real bad too.

Old Spice makes you run bow legged if you treat your knees.

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Eccentric old coot

You sure you didn't hand him a bottle of turpentine?

Heard a story once,(maybe read or seen on tv) about a group of OSS people that were some where in China. They were doing weather studies or something like that and the Japs were hard after them. They moved around a lot, and had difficulty with understanding the nomadic tribesman. One of the men saw two tribesmen fight over a native saddle and had an idea. He requested the Army send him 100 saddles.

So they parachuted them in and you guessed it, they were McClellens. They had a ceremony and "awarded" the saddles to the most trusted warriors who, evidently, loved them. The Japs never got within 50 miles of them for the remainder of the war.

Thought you'd get a kick out of that.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

Iggy;

Got the saddle bags, just no photos.....heres another one a bit more complete.

Cheers;
Lefty

............................

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Sure you did

Lefty,
Very nice display.

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Eccentric old coot

The US Navy had a weather station set up in the Gobi during WW II, IIRC.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Heavy Cavalry date from roughly the middle 1600s and were large men on large horses (usually the size of Clydesdales; think the Budweiser horses for Yanks!). Armed with heavy sabres and sometimes "horse pistols" but with breastplate armour, etc. Look at the Life or Horse Guards in the UK. Shock troops as described earlier. Light cavalry were recce forces with often light sabres and carbines/pistols. Their main aim was to see and scoot. Lancers (Uhlans/Hussars) were light cavalry to medium sizes with lances/light sabres as their weapon of choice. Often used against "light cavalry". Dragoons were intermediate between the light and heavy and were often used as back-ups to light cavalry before calling in the "Heavies". Usually sabre and carbine armed. Mounted infantry were what the US cavalry effectively was after the Civil War, and the McCellan saddle was designed to hold Northern troops on the horse (hence mounted infantry) as most of the Union troops had little or no experience riding. Often being almost straight off the boat. Dave_n

[QUOTE=jlrhiner;136436655]Heard a story once,(maybe read or seen on tv) about a group of OSS people that were some where in China. They were doing weather studies or something like that and the Japs were hard after them. They moved around a lot, and had difficulty with understanding the nomadic tribesman. One of the men saw two tribesmen fight over a native saddle and had an idea. He requested the Army send him 100 saddles.

So they parachuted them in and you guessed it, they were McClellens. They had a ceremony and "awarded" the saddles to the most trusted warriors who, evidently, loved them. The Japs never got within 50 miles of them for the remainder of the war.

The movie was "Destination Gobi" starring Richard Widmark and Don Taylor.

Ok, you guys know I have memory problems.

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James L. "Jim" Rhiner

jimmyj; how far back do you want to go for your definition? The definition Light Cavalry and Heavy cavalry has changed over the centuries. I could assume you meant in regards to the era of your father, but what the heck, I'll go a little farther back.

Colonel, if I may be so bold, it goes back over a millenia prior to that. Back at least to Alexander the Great, the Persians and Romans. Persian heavy cavalry had both rider and horse armored, and were indeed shock troops. Armed with both lance and bow they could decimate an undisciplined infantry whose pikemen would not stand their ground.

Light cavalry would be exactly that - lightly armored with speed and endurance being much, much greater than a heavy cavalry unit. The Mongol hordes are an example of such - speed, speed, and more speed with unparalleled horsemanship and small, light bows. In the Roman Army (Byzantine Era) Light Cavalry would have been used for scouting, raiding and communications.

In that early time period, Dragoon originally meant mounted infantry. They would not have been used as typical cavalry in a charge; they had horses only to increase mobility and speed getting to a battle area where they would dismount and fight on foot. Their horses would have been inferior to true cavalry horses, and they did not enjoy the same "status" (or pay) as a regular cavalry regiment. They were cheaper to recruit and equip. But as in all things, change happens. In the 17th century (Thirty Years War) King Gustav II Adolf gave his Dragoons more weapons, including a matchlock musket. By the time of the Napoleonic wars, they had transformed to the units you so well described. To further muddy the waters, there then became both Heavy and Light Dragoons, and further downgrade to lancers or hussars. I'll leave off that for now or this could go on forever. Suffice to say as in most things it had to do with money. Heavy cavalry cost a LOT. The type of horse required for Heavy Cavalry were rare and VERY expensive.

Only a fellow musician would know THAT.....ie. the March Garry Owen

Randy

"Destination Gobi" (1953) w/Richard Widmark

Lefty-

Is that the M-1902 saber, For All Officers?

It was supplanted for real cavalry use by the Patton saber, basically a ripoff of the British Pattern 1908 (Officers' version appeared in 1912). Perhaps the ultimate evolution of the sword for mounted personnel.

Pretty long for dismounted use, it gave good reach while mounted.

Churchill mentioned using his long cavalry sword once while dismounted. I kept that in mind while comparing a Pattern 1897 Infantry Officers sword with a Model 1908 Cavalry sword in a shop. I'm 5' 10" and about 165 pounds. For me, the shorter Infantry sword worked much better. Had I been mounted, I probably would have appreciated the cavalry sword more. But I hate horses...

BTW, Wilkinson's no longer makes swords. Pity.

Young Winston - British cavalry charge at Omdurman - YouTube

Note here how quickly cavalry can change course and charge.

TexasStar;

That particular saber is indeed a US Model 1902 Officers and a fairly early example, pre WWI, c.1910. I have many 1902's among my cavalry collection, some are pictured below, 1 to 4 from left. Since their inception they have evolved into what is now best described as a ceremonial object, rather than a combat weapon. Any of them made within the last 50 years or more are simply that.

The Patton saber of which you speak is shown below second from right and although it is alledged to have been inspired by the British P 1908, is more likely to have been inspired by the Spanish Porto Seguro in my opinion, also pictured below far right. These three commonly were for mounted battle and are positively unwieldy on foot. They are best suited for use in the charge and almost useless in any melee. The US 1906 (3rd from right) version of the US 1860 (4th from right) was a somewhat more versatile saber in this respect. But Gen. Patton (Master of the Sword, as I'm sure you know) had his way.


And here's a few cavalrymen, Christmas 1916, with a drunken jackass. Maybe all of them were?


Cheers;
Lefty

Aren't those English terms for variations of troops? I know the Lighthorse calvary used in WW1, mostly by the Australians, were actually mounted infantry. They rode to the battle, dismounted and fought on foot.

While I am no military history scholar, I think the description "Light Cavalry" and "Heavy Cavalry" have been used loosely over the recent century. Anyway, there is some misconceptions but I don't believe it means much in contemporary general terms. How bout' a dude on a horse with a long knife and a gun? Just sayin'....