Completely agree with the OP, I have a 5906, and have owned a 4566TSW. They are two completely different beasts, they are also not build on the same frame, and I agree to it being the shooter issue. As with my 5906 with factory fixed novak sights, it hits POA at 10 yards perfectly, but with the 4566TSW my targets at 10 yards looked like I was shooting buckshot. Even tried 3 different grips styles on the gun, and still couldn't get it right. Sold it and bought a S&W 1911, right out of the box with a gun I hadn't shot before I was grouping and hitting POA.

I once owned a Sigma that grouped about a foot low of POA at 10 yards. At first, I blamed the jerk behind the trigger (me) as I wasn't used to the long, heavy, gritty squeeze of the Sigma trigger. Had to be a trigger control issue.

Since it was new, I took some time to really concentrate on sight picture, sight alignment and trigger squeeze fundamentals. Still hitting way low at 10 yards during slow-fire fundamental drills. Still had to be me.

Frustrated, I called up my brother who is a certified instructor and a long-time LEO. I figured he could watch me shoot and help me straighten out whatever I was doing wrong that day. He shows up and sees no flinch when I shoot. He hides a few snap caps in the mag and still no discernible flinch or pull on the click. Finally he takes the Sigma for a walk and the same thing happens with him behind the trigger. But he isn't used to the trigger either. So we break out the sand bags to create a stable platform. Still a foot low at 10 yards.

Only after all of my trial and error and a second opinion from a "professional" did I send the Sigma back for authorized S&W repair. In this case, I did have a bent barrel on a brand new gun. Most accuracy issues are the fault of the shooter and I am no exception. But there are rare occasions when mishaps happen in the manufacturing process - even from quality makers like S&W. The 'smith actually called me to tell me it was one of the extremely few instances when a pistol was sent back for shooting low and there was actually a problem with the firearm.

Once the new barrel was installed, it hit POA reliably - except when I screwed up the shot...

Don't ever buy an Anschutz .22 the darn thing will hit exactly what you were pointing at when the trigger was pulled.

Well I sure can't get mine to shoot. It could be us!!! LOL But really, I can't get mine to shoot off the bench no matter what I do!

On the left eye dominate issue I have this to say and maybe it can help some of you. I am right eye dominate and right handed. But As I have aged I have found that not only do my eyes not focus like they use to, but my right eye gets tired faster. A few weeks ago my oldest boy was home and we were shooting 617's off the deck and I was missing more swinging targets than I was hitting. My right eye was tiring fast, on a whim I started shooting right handed and using my left eye!!! I cleaned house. I could docus much better with my left eye and for a longer period of time.
Give it a try! It can't hurt. I adjusted quickly to using the left eye. I think because I was shooting so much better I chose not to let it feel awkward.

John

I was shooting low and left. I moved the target low and left. Bulls eye! Actually, it was me.! Many rounds with my M&P22 made a big difference on my POI with my M&P9. Practice, practice, practice.

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Endeavor to persevere. <><

Aim high and to the right!
Bill to follow.

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Forum consigliere

Bill here

Yep. It's me, too. I shoot way lousy with some handguns, and just the right one, I can get it up to mediocre. I learned on rifles, shoot shotguns pretty well at moving targets, and am pathetic with hanguns (by my own expectations) on average. But I am working on it.
But then again, I was pretty shocked last time I went to an indoor range where I could easily see most of the others splattering all overt the paper at 5 yards.
The correct grip, to me, is more effective than a superior trigger pull.

What if you shoot low and left with one handgun and high and right with another?

I bought a Walther P1 that was made in 1986. It is the post war P-38. I find that it shoots well for me and others. The range officer at the SO range, who is also on the SWAT Team, was getting 1" groups at 15 yds with it. I did not do that well. Any time I feel that a gun is not shooting well, I let him shoot it to show me that there is nothing wrong with the gun. There must be something to shooting a lot.

This thread reminds me of what I tell people when I play Racquetball with them. They make a bad shot and then look at their racquet. I tell them that if it was a mirror, then they could tell what the problem was.

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Corripe Cervisiam

LOL LOL LOL LOL

John

I used to get fair groups that were low and left with my handguns. They really weren't off bad enough to worry about but they were aggravating. I then began to read about stance and grip and used the technique to find my (NAA), natural aiming area and my accuracy greatly improved. I found that I was lining my body up about the same every time and that it was not right, consistent, but not right. I am a much happier shooter now than I was at the first of the year. I have become much better with my M65 4" and my 37 snub. The real challenge has been a Colt vest pocket .25, but once I figured out how to grip a tiny little gun like that, and to use the first joint of my trigger finger instead of the first pad I can hold it to a nice windage.
I wonder if a CTG is a Colt Tiny Gun?.....got one!
Peace,
gordon

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better have that checked

Every now and then I get a dose of humility, holes all over the place. By a few stokes of luck I have acquired a S&W 41 ans a K-22. They will tell me right away if it is me or the gun, for some reason it has alwys been me.
As I shoot I can feel myself unwind and groups get better. Just remember you shoot the way you train. Dump the brass out of your revolvers and drop the magazines out of the automatics. You shoot under pressure the way you train.

This reminds me of what Curtis Pitts, a good old boy from Florida and the designer of the Pitts' Special aerobatic airplane, the dominant aerobatic airplane in the world for 30 years and still world class capable in the right hands, said about physical fitness: he was asked about the growing trend, I think this was in the eighties, of pilots being more fit and concentrating more on working out and less on flying. His response was to advocate what he called the best and simplest fitness routine for aerobatic pilots in the world. It consisted of the following-
1. Fill up 2 five gallon jerry cans with fuel.
2. Lift each can above your head.
3. Pour the fuel into your Pitts Special. (The fuel tank and filler for a Pitts is on the fuselage in front of the seat, at eye level when you are standing beside the airplane.)
4. Repeat twice daily.

Of course, the implication is that if you are flying enough aerobatics to empty the tank twice a day you are going to be fit enough and a very good pilot as well. Its all about PRACTICE. My guess is that if you shoot a couple of thousand rounds in that inaccurate pistol, you are going to be surprised how that point of impact moves to where it should be! regards, Bill S

That's it. I'm on my way to the Apex website to spend tons of money now.

In the '60s I was in the USAF with another pilot whose father was a colonel in SAC. The father's nickname was Rhett.

When Rhett was a second lt just after WWII he was assigned to Panama. He was given the duty of seeing to the marksmanship of the unit. One member was a a master sergeant who wasn't about to put up with any **** from a second louie. He stalked to the line, grabbed the pistol, almost certainly a Colt Government Model, and pretty much flung the rounds downrange, completely missing the target. He then proclaimed the guns as pieces of s*&t, tossed his on the table and started to leave while further decrying the stupid requirement to maintain currency.
The young lt. told the MS to wait (having been a lt in a unit with master sergeants, I know how THAT went over!) and picked up the pistol himself and reloaded it. He then turned his back to the target, bent over and drilled the bullseye from between his legs. He stood up, giving the gun an appraising look and said "Seems fine to me, Sergeant, try it again."
DAMN I wish I could have been there to see that!
Rhett went on to become a legend in SAC, for other reasons.

Some of you are talking about those P-38s the way I used to hear Army vets talk about the 1911s they carried in the service. They talked like you couldn't hit a 55 gal barrel at 20'.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Plus one on that...

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Jason Adams

I usually blame my bad shot grouping on the jerk behind the trigger

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Bob

Well I know it's not me. I've been shooting guns for my last 3 incarnations. Starting with smooth bore flint locks.
Also my brother's, uncle's, cousin's former college roommate once knew a guy that was a sharpshooter. So that qualifies me as an expert.
That means that I'm an expert with every gun ever. So, if it's hitting low and left it can't be my fault. It must be the gun.
But can it handle +P?

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Keep on Chooglin'

This is the target for you.

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_It was love at first shot_

I have several of those guns too, me and all of them have one blind eye! I missed the first shot and hit the next one in the same place.

Must be common. I have a couple of Hammerli pistols with the same problem.

I had a Raven 25 cal. That gun was crazy accurate at 15 yards. The shooters remarked on it.

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_It was love at first shot_

But if you actually practice shooting the gun it'll get dirty and worn looking. That wouldn't look good next to that obviously unworn holster in the pics!

My god, ya might actually get the dreaded cylinder ring. Or even worse, those ***** looking stains on cylinder face!

You forgot to mention that the sharp shooter lived once in the same town as John M. Browning did. That is relevant right???

LOL... That made my morning thanks soooo much!

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Jason Adams

Everyone should listen up, DGT is an expert on the subject of inaccuracy with firearms!

My wife is right handed and left eye dominant. Originally, her shooting was quite poor. I taught her to shoot left handed, now she out-shoots me.

I think I may have made a mistake............l.

Funny guy... Its not nice to make fun of the shooting impaired

I read through this thread with interest. I sent a Ruger P90 back for an accuracy problem. I bought it new and shot it with both factory and hand loads. I could get nice five shot groups at 25 yards benched. Like 2 inches but they were consistently 2 to 2 1/2 inches left. Hey that was no problem. The rear sight was adjustable. Well when I got it to the point that the set screw was almost out of the dovetail I sent it to Ruger with a target. Wasn't long it came back with the sight in the middle of the dovetail and the test target dead on point of aim. Well!

Back out to the range. This time I took a SAA I had that I new shot to point of aim. The Ruger still shot to the left in nice tight groups. Ah we suspect a loose nut behind the grip (shooter). I picked up the SAA and put 5 down range. Nice little group (about 3 inches). Just what I'd come to expect from the gun. EXCEPT they were about 2 inches to the left.

Now finger that one out, kids. It took me a while but I finally figured out that I had just gotten new glasses with progressive lenses. I had to learn to shoot with both eyes open. That cured the shooting to the left.

Now I've developed a really wonderful flinch so there ain't know group shooting with a hand gun for a while.

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Quando omni flunkus moritati.

I've had one gun that had legitimate accuracy issues out of the box.

It was a Ruger Single Seven in 327 Magnum. I was getting no discernible group(and even some off the paper) at 7 yards. There were also a lot of noticeable bumps and "catches" in the action. Several other people shot it, and no one was able to get the gun to group.

After 100 rounds, I looked the gun over, and there was a noticeable amount of wear in one side of the forcing cone. I called Ruger and sent it back(on their dime). As per the report, they replaced the pawl and recut the forcing cone. They also test fired it at 15 yards with the ammo I specified, and included the test target(about a 1.5" group with 6 of the 7 shots making a big hole). They also had it back to me in a week and a half(I wish S&W would take some lessons from them). Since then, I've been able to shoot it much better, and feel pretty confident that any issues are my fault.

I recently bought an S&W m52(c. 1978, but new in the box) that shot terribly on my first range trip. With that gun, I'm positive that the problem is related to the "nut behind the trigger" as the saying goes.

Training newbies, especially with semi-auto pistols, after two magazines, I often hear the cry that "My gun is no good, so and so told me to get it and it is no good, blah, blah, blah". I then take the newbies gun, load it and rapidly fire off a tight group. Carefully, making sure the gun is unloaded, I put on the safety (if any) and return the gun saying "Doesn't look like the gun. Maybe you are still shaking your wrist (in fear) and anticipating the recoil?" Take your time, practice slowly, following your set up steps and firing procedure and finish your box of ammo before you blame the gun. There is a certain amount of coordination required on your part even if you are not playing tennis. A few boxes later, they are usually ok. Sometimes it helps to let them fire a few through your gun (loaded by you!) to confirm that the results are not varying with the gun, but the person. If they want to go off and buy a compensator or trigger job that is their business.

I have shot many peoples guns so they could see it was them and not the gun. I remember when I was a teen, a gun and his boys bought a new Remington 1100 and shot at a half a box of skeets and didn't hit a one. The guy asked me to try it and I picked up the "beautiful, good feeling" shotgun. (At the time my shotgun was a Marlin Goose Gun-so anything felt good in my hands compared to that). I shot three skeets in a row and said do you want to sell it? I handed the guy back his 1100 and went on shooting my goose gun. He and his boys kept on trying to hit the skeets.

I'm not a good shot but sometimes I am a lot better than some of the people I see wasting ammo.

John

This can't be right. I could have retired 10 years ago if it is.

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That's just somebody talkin.