After seeing my thousand millionth thread on "my S&W is shooting low left", ive had enough of the "sending my defective gun to the factory" posts and wish to add some pointers as to why folks say its the shooter's fault.

One, if you own a handgun that's defective in terms of accuracy you will KNOW it. I do not mean low left with a tight group at 25 feet. I mean not hitting the target at all off a bench at 7 feet. If the handgun in question looks like a shotgun pattern at that distance, one has a case for saying the handgun is defective in some manner.

Two:NOT ALL HANDGUNS HANDLE THE SAME!

I don't care who makes it. I've been blessed to own several S&W 3rd Generation handguns, and they all handled *very*differently from one another. A grip which helps make accurate 3" groups from a 4566 generates ugly fliers from a 9mm 5906. Both weapons were made in the same building by the same company, but they don't handle alike. A thumbs forward grip on a full size M&P9 makes for nice close shots on the bulls eye. A thumbs forward grip on a 5904 results in me pulling the shots right.

It doesn't matter how well you shot gun X before. Unless the next weapon you own is exactly the same model, caliber, grip, and size as the last one, you may as well consider it a completely different gun and act accordingly. Subtle changes in grip can mean the difference between a tack driver and an inaccurate mess. Sometimes one just doesn't click ergonomically with a firearm. I like how the 4506 and 1006 look and handle, but ill never shoot them accurately because they twist in my paws as I shoot. Without modifications to the DA trigger or grip, I won't be able to shoot them nearly as well as my 5900 series models. Both guns in someone else's hands will be potential tack drivers, but in my mitts the last place any DA shot is going to go with those frames is where I aim it. Luck of the ergonomic draw, not "these guns are inaccurate".

Three:PRACTICE BEFORE PURCHASE.

I don't have any compensators, fancy barrels, or tuned firearms in my modest collection. I suspect it will be a long time before I do avail myself of the options for competition type weapons, being that I just don't have the skills to take advantage of it.Its like nails on a chalkboard everytime I go to the range and someone's talking about buying a "competition model" because their groups with the box-stock Glock in their range bag look like shotgun patterns. Truth of the matter is, that shooter would be better off buying $600 worth of ammo and range time , than $600 worth of modified triggers, hyper-accurate aftermarket barrels, and super-tactical-mega operator sights. That box stock Glock/S&W/whatever will outshoot 99% of people who handle it, including myself.

Just my personal theories, but a lot of gun accesory firms would be out of business if shooters honestly realized that the can't buy their way to marksmanship. No competition shooter ive ever heard of started off with a $3000 race gun.

If a shooter's having accuracy problems-and Im not immune to this dilemma myself-an honest appraisal of one's skills and some extra time at the range will do a lot more good than blowing stacks of money at the Apex trigger webpage and moaning about a "defective" firearm which is shooting exactly where the owner pointed it at when the shot broke.

End rant.

Nicely worded and well said.

Someone on here is about to buy their first or 2nd handgun and I hope they read this.

Thanks for the time put into your post. I just agree and walk away from those that know it all, to enjoy the accuracy of my firearms with my shooting pards or myself. I'm just burned out on on people that flap their gums instead of deploying their ears. Oh, I'm from close to you...kinda. Where do you hang your shingle Silversmok3? I'm East River.

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Go big or stay home

Don't golfers buy new clubs because they can't play like Tiger Woods used to?

I'm still looking for the perfect 1911 45 ACP, but I've found about a dozen really good ones that do shoot the radom flyer. It can't be me can it? The truth hurts, I'll stop buying new guns.

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S&WHF 366

I know it's me. You don't have to rub it in.

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_It was love at first shot_

THANK YOU! Glad someone finally said it. There may be people out there that can out-shoot their handgun but, I've never met one of those people.
When I hear someone say, "that pistol is really accurate", I know that they are really saying, "I shoot that gun better than I do other guns". Some guns "fit" us better than others and we therefore shoot them better but, the difference is rarely due to the accuracy of the gun. JMHO.

Best part of the post:
"I don't have any compensators, fancy barrels, or tuned firearms in my modest collection. I suspect it will be a long time before I do avail myself of the options for competition type weapons, being that I just don't have the skills to take advantage of it.Its like nails on a chalkboard everytime I go to the range and someone's talking about buying a "competition model" because their groups with the box-stock Glock in their range bag look like shotgun patterns. Truth of the matter is, that shooter would be better off buying $600 worth of ammo and range time , than $600 worth of modified triggers, hyper-accurate aftermarket barrels, and super-tactical-mega operator sights. That box stock Glock/S&W/whatever will outshoot 99% of people who handle it, including myself."

Spend your money on training and ammo. Practice, shoot, train and then do it some more.

What gets me is those complainers who just can't believe it is them. They always seem to claim that they have been shooting for 30 years, are an NRA Master, and they had a local pistol champion shoot their gun with the same results. Sorry guy, if you are shooting 8 inches low and left at 7 yards it's NOT the sights, it's the person holding the gun.

Personally I've found that shooting a handgun isn't an all easy. It's a real skill and it takes steady practice to maintain that skill. IMO the simple answer to these posts is to gently suggest that more time spent practicing will likely yield far better results than any number of trips to the factory.

Amazing....

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Jorge

Just when you are thinking to yourself, "man I'm shooting well today, look at that group...flyer. It's like God's little way of inserting humility, lol.

I agree with your top end custom gun theory too, I have some I bought early on, I'll never shoot well enough to justify them, only 1 in a 1000 guys will. Anything above a top end factory pistol is a waste for most people unless it's bought for the thrill of having the best, JMO.

But I do have this one gun that always shoots a tight group just to the right of bullseye....lol...it must be the gun!!

You know sometimes it is the sites. A friend had a P228 shooting just left of the Bulleye. I tried it and had the same issue. Now he shot my P228 on target as did I. Borrowed a sight pusher from the range, made a minor adjustment and his was now shooting to POA. Until then he thought it was just him but since he did not do it with my pistol and I did it with his, the site became the suspect.
Now I agree with the OP. All of my guns shoot better than me but some I can drive tacks with and others I have to concentrate to hit anything.

I agree that "most" of the time it is the individual and not the firearm. There can be accuracy improvements with better trigger jobs. A nice crisp clean tuned trigger certainly helps over a heavy creeping trigger. Sure you can get used to or better with the lousy trigger but perhaps not as good as with the better trigger.
I can not agree that a heavy DA trigger is as accurate as a light SA. Can you get proficient with the heavy DA, sure. But it takes more work and time.

For the average shooter it's more about practice. For Comp shooters the finely tuned guns seem to make a difference.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I know I won't hit the bullseye all the time but I hit the target all the time and it's not even life sized. I didn't try to hit the bullseye but I did aim for it and I was practicing drawing the bead and fire over and over as in SD situations.

I bought the guns for SD not for match competitions.

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_It was love at first shot_

Every firearm I've ever owned has been more accurate than I am, and I know it. But damn it I still hitting low and left

Guns are like people, no two are the same. You have to spend a lot of time with each to really get to know them.

Great thread and very true. A great example from my own experience...I'm no bullseye marksman, but I do pretty well with most Smith revolvers in DA or in SA. I do okay with 1911s too...but I cannot come close to that accuracy with my Sigs or my HK USP. I SWEAR I'm using the same mechanics and concentrating on the front sight and trigger, but I just can't make them work as well...I know the guns are accurate and that it is something about the way I pull (yank) the blasted triggers!

If you bench rested your gun you can test the accuracy of it.

What I did with my Sig P250c 40sw.



This is from the Weaver stance.



So I know it's me.

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_It was love at first shot_

I always explain inaccuracy being the fault of the jerk behind the trigger...

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Bob

If your not gonna let me blame it on the gun is there anyway I can blame the ammo or the wind from the exhaust fan .

Same here, I practice for 3-4 inch groups center mass, at speed from 3-25 yards. That's about all I worry about. Some of my friends are bullseye shooters, it takes all of us to keep our sport.

heyHeyHEY!!!!.....

......"I just washed my gun and can't do a THING with it".....*kaff*kaff*....

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Dum vivimus Vivamas

All I know is that every gun I have shoots better than I am capable of... and that's all I got to say about that!

HG

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Isaiah 55:8-9
Phil. 4:13

I only had one gun that shot bad, a Ruger Mini-30.
Every other gun I ever shot was more accurate than me.

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

gheeeeesh(sp?) -- I get blamed for everything

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In dog years I'm dead.

Amen. Shooting is 98% mental, and in my case I tend to get in my own way. Add to that that about the time we DO learn how to shoot we forget how to SEE.

I want decent sights and a decent--preferably a great--trigger. Stocks that fit matter quite a lot. Many years ago I took an NRA instructor's course from an old Chicago cop; since it was before the Invasion of the Wondernines the subject was wheelguns. He convinced me that the front sight was really, really important, and sold me on "ball and dummy" practice. Best advice I ever got, and I pass it on every chance I get.

The last thing is that some guns really make me look good--and sometimes they're the plain-Jane ones. I shoot them better on a bad day than some others on a good day. I don't always know quite why but I'm all for it. I'm trying to get more of the former and clear out the latter.

Amazing how you know if you hit or not the instant the round goes off...................

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Go big or stay home

I will admit it: I suck with a 38special snubnose. I probably could not fight my way out of a phone booth with one. I am lefty, and I consistently shoot right with my 9504. My 'cheap' Rock Island 45 is a ragged-one-hole gun. I can do decent with a 357 with a 6inch barrel.

It's all me. And, if I am in a good frame of mind, I can make myself shoot very well with each gun, except that 38.
Of course, my son can offhand shoot the 38 at 25 yards and put 3 out of 5 in the center ring on a man target. So, with that said, he must have put a hex on me and the 38...........

Gawd, I know before the trigger even gets pulled completely sometimes.

And then, therer is that time when I look downrange, see a between the eyes hit when I was aiming at the chest...... and wonder "Who shot my target for me while I wasn't looking??!!"

[QUOTE=Bat Guano;136513404]sold me on "ball and dummy" practice. Best advice I ever got, and I pass it on every chance I get.


All right Bat Guano...Pass it on! I have to plead ignorance on "ball and dummy" practice so help me out!

Dot Drill 101 using Ball and Dummy - YouTube

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Bob

Great post in ALL regards! Thanks for putting online what I hae been thinking about doing for the last month.

Randy

Love it! However, don't overlook the fact that many a good firearm has been acquired cheaply from a disgruntled shooter.
Just last month my brother bought a nice old model 99 Savage chambered for the venerable 300 Savage. On our first trip to the range it shot slightly to the left for him while it tended to group my shots slightly to the right. Maybe it's how we talk to it that matters. I can't honestly believe that different shooters would have such an affect on accuracy.
John

That You Tube video is slow loading...

"Ball and dummy" aka "skip loading" is simply loading three live rounds into a revolver cylinder--two rounds into adjacent chambers, "skip" one chamber, and plug the third round in. Then spin the cylinder without looking at it, and close it. Each time you squeeze the trigger you have exactly a 50% chance of getting a "click" (or a bang).

The point is to develop trigger control and follow-through. The noise and fiction of the weapon firing covers what you did, or think you did at the moment of firing. Hence "The sights were right on when I squeezed (yanked?) the shot off".

It's the empty chambers that tell the story. If you do it right, when the hammer falls, NOTHING HAPPENS. The sights stay aligned, the muzzle does not dive "low and left", you do not close your eyes and grimace. if your follow through was very, very good, it was defitely a good shot; congratulate yourself. Then do it again. Nobody else may know what you're doing or how well you did it, but YOU DO.

Not only does it stretch the ammo supply, but the instructor can wander off for a beverage while you stand there and beat yourself up. Everybody wins. It really works.

Variations are obvious. Doing this with lightweight snubs (just adjust the rounds in the 5 shooters) cushions impact; load 1/4 or 1/6; use .22LR; for semi autos throw some dummy rounds in the mix.

It's all very simple--just maintain sight alignment through the shot, cause the hammer to fall without disturbing same, and lots of follow through.

It's just not easy to do each and every time! (and I don't, either.)

Sorry 'bout the "noise and friction" bit. What I typed in was "noise and ruction". Predictive word processing and failure to proof-read, dang it...

(muttering and cursing, sotto voce.)

Accuracy is not precision.

Accuracy can be fixed or compensated for

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Buy American
Vote Responsibly

When a guy says his gun is more accurate than he can shoot it, I get the inpression that thre's a sense of honesty in that man.

Me? I blame my inaccuracy on the inability to concentrate due to all of the dang screaming from the topless waitresses.

And why not? They're not balloons you know.

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_It was love at first shot_

Thanks Bat Guano...I will definitely do this drill more often!...love the simplicity. Ironically, I have inadvertantly done this drill on occasion due to my use of hard CCI primers and intermittent light strikes with some of my revolvers! (but that is another thread).

Relevant story:

I’ve been shooting Glocks since 1992. After cursing my first Glock during the first 3 or 4 range sessions back in '92, I (that's me, not the pistol) finally got it and the group shrunk by 60% and move near the x ring. Since then I have always shot Glocks well.

About 7 years ago I was visiting my local indoor range . . . a lot! On many occasions a guy or gal with his or her new Glock would be shooting one or two positions over. The group (if one could call it that) would be all over the place and even if the group was decent, it would be low and left. On several of those occasions, the person would see my target (shot with one of my Glocks) and start a conversation with something like, "Hey that's good shooting. Yeah, my new one just won't do that. I guess I'll have to move the sight."

Since they would always be shooting factory ammo (I don’t shoot other people’s reloads), I would respond with, "Well, why don't you give me three rounds and let me see what I can do with it?" They would almost always smile and say sure. On each and every occasion, I would get a nice little 3 shot group either in or very close to the x ring at 7 yards. I would say, "Well, it doesn't appear to the the pistol. You know Glock triggers can take some getting use to. Concentrate on keeping your sight picture all way through the trigger pull."

In every case, the person’s groups and placement would improve by the end of the session. I think it was just the reassurance that "the gun's okay" that forced them to step up to the plate and concentrate, and that would result in the improvement. It took away the all too easy and often said, "Something’s wrong with this one."

FWIW

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

I could shoot all my guns well if they would hold still while aiming. They are all nervous when looking at a target.

I used to shoot really well a few years ago. Then they started making the guns with the fuzzy sights....

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Why duck?? It's a 9mm!

My biggest accuarcy problem is my eyes!!
When I was young and had good eyes I couldn't afford good guns. Now that I can buy what I want when I want I can't focus to shoot well! oh well.

What the OP said is how I feel sometimes reading on most gun forums.

John

I'm now 60 years old. I began wearing bifocals when I was around 40 years old. I notice, as many of us probably have, that when I'm shooting a handgun, either the target is crystal clear and the sights are fuzzy (looking through top part of lens) or the sights are razor sharp and the target is just all fuzzed out (bottom part of lens). In around 1999, I had my eye doctor make a pair of "computer glasses" for me so that the screen on my work computer, about 24" away, would be sharp and clear. I took the computer glasses to the indoor range with me and tried them while shooting. Basically, it's like "splitting the difference" between the bifocal lenses. Neither the sights nor the target are razor sharp, but the sights are pretty clear and the target is clear enough to shoot good accurate groups.

FWIW HTH

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1st Signal Brigade, RVN '70

Good story...I was that guy when I started shooting so I know it is true that you just have to concentrate.

My biggest issue with accuracy turned out to be which hand I was shooting with. I am right handed and left eye dominant.

I trained myself to shoot lefty and....imagine this.....I started shooting better.

Intersting thread here , First I am 61 Now and find that I can barley make out the front sight of my Mosin totally blurry. Guess I am going to need some shooting glasses Sigh.

Second I had this Piece of Nazi **** P-38 AAARgghh Could not hit anything with it. I mean all over the place at 30 feet I could not hold any kind of group not low left Nothing !!At 30 feet I can do 6-8 inch groups in the x-ring with my 1911 or 5943 or even bersa Thunderer ( honestly for an inexpensive fire arm i was very surprised). But that Walther was more than I could deal with. ( oh yeah lets see the little thingy under the barrel would come loose so you could not release the slide and finally even the slide would not lock back after the last round , it was just goin to pieces) Sold it to a dealer at a gun show. (did tell him about the problems but he could not have cared less) Was it me ? I dunno but I am sure glad it's gone.

I inherited two Nazi P-38's that my F-I-L liberated in WWII. I too felt they were a big piece of garbage. One was mint and the other has seen some use. Both shoot all over the place and could get not get a real group. I tired different ammo, reloading for them too. I can shoot a 1911 with ease and my revolvers I shoot very well. Although with aging eyes I'm not as good as I use to be.

If all the germans had were P-38's against our 1911's, no rifles or anything. The war in Europe would have been over in a month!!

John

I'm blaming Ruger. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

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Vanquish Fear and Panic!

What a relief it is to read this! A few months back I posted about how I couldn't hit anything with my P-38, but surmised that it may have had more to do with me. A few members agreed. But now I know better; there's nothing wrong with my shooting. It's just the $!)* gun.

i am right handed and left eyed as well,and have considered learning to shoot left handed. ive tried of course,but, it seems really awkward ,how long did it take before it "felt right"?
also im missing the tip of my right trigger finger from first knuckle, so double action reach is kinda compromised anyway..