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Old 07-15-2012, 12:40 AM
McBear McBear is offline
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Default Ammo and burning house shooting at Fire Department

I would be interested to hear the conversation between the...well, former home owner and his insurance company as he tries to explain that the reason the fire department didn't put out the fire earlier was due to fear of being shot by the house.

Does anyone have experience with an insurance company's response should this happen to you?

Exploding ammo hampers firefighters // VIDEO | firefighters, george, ammo - The News Herald
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:57 AM
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The NRA and United Labratories have both done testing on the injury potential of loose ammo cooking off.
In both test it would cause brusing to soft tissue, but would not penetrate turn out gear or heavy clothing.
Having said that, if there is no threat to life, most Fire Depts. in that instance will just back off and play containment till the fire dies out.
And yes I have a friend that that happened to, his insurance gave him no problems over it.
Here's a pic of one of his rifles recovered from the house:
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:02 AM
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I don't have any experience with that particular problem with an insurance company, but, my relatively limited experience with claims made leads me to believe that the insurance company will do its best to weasel out of the coverage. That being said, I do have some experience with uncontained ammo (not enclosed in a firearm's chamber, but lying loose, or even in a box) going off, and the firefighters were, more than likely, in no danger from being "shot at." When a loose round is set off, about all that happens is a loud "bang," and the brass case will split, usually like a corkscrew, and the bullet will just lie there, or move less than an inch. The brass case is the weakest part of the ammo, and provides far less resistance than the much heavier bullet, resulting in noise, but no bullets flying through the air intent on killing nearby innocents.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:12 AM
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When ammo's in a fire , the casings become the projectile , with very little velocity. (Anyone else ever throw a .22 in the campfire?) Perhaps the chambered round(s) in a loaded pistol could ''cook off''. An auto might even cycle , though the rounds in the mag would probably get hot and rupture first.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:58 AM
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I remember Roy Rodgers, Hopalong Cassidy and the Lone Ranger would throw a handful of Cartridges in the fire to make a distraction to get away. Nobody ever got shot.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn Yankee View Post
I remember Roy Rodgers, Hopalong Cassidy and the Lone Ranger would throw a handful of Cartridges in the fire to make a distraction to get away. Nobody ever got shot.
There's the definitive answer right there!
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunslinger808 View Post
The NRA and United Labratories have both done testing on the injury potential of loose ammo cooking off.
In both test it would cause brusing to soft tissue, but would not penetrate turn out gear or heavy clothing...
United Labs provides chemicals to the wastewater industry.

If you mean Underwriters Laboratories, I've been with the company for over 30 years and have heard nothing of our conducting any testing in this area.
http://www.ul.com
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:05 AM
charlie sherrill charlie sherrill is offline
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I've seen a lot of house fires, including one near here two weeks ago, that had large amounts of ammo cooking off. I've never seen anyone injured by burning ammo because when the casing bursts it renders the projectile mostly harmless. Even loaded guns cooking off are not much of a threat because the bullet or shot usually hits something inside the structure instead of coming out and being a danger to firemen or by standers. Does anyone have any literature, handbook, manuel,etc. telling firefighters how to handle this situation?
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:33 AM
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Several (maybe ten or more) years ago, there was an article in "The American Rifleman" written by a man I believe to be a Professional Engineer and who was definitly a volunteer firefighter. He performed extensive scientific tests cooking off ammunition. The upshot was, as others here have described, that the case becomes the projectile (Newtonian physics anyone?) and only goes a short distance. The greatest danger is from small fragments that are easily stopped by standard turnout gear.

This whole topic is another example of the lies and legends surrounding firearms that are believed by the non-shooting public, the stupid and those who would exploit them.

Russ
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:34 AM
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I guess it was about 20 years ago. My Grandfather had a CB/HAM radio base station at home it had a 100 foot tower antenna. Lightning stuck the antenna and the home caught fire. He had about 2000+ rounds of various ammo in the room that caught fire. The rounds started cooking off just after the fire dept got there. The FD retreated and went to hiding behind the trucks till the ammo was spent.

This was 20 years ago, but the insurance paid and all is well.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:44 AM
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My dad and his buddies did stuff like that with artillery shells during WW2, and the cases blew without the projectiles launching, just as with the small arms ammo.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:21 PM
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McBear, thanks for starting this thread - and all of you that chimed in! This is an issue I've always wondered about and can now put my mind to rest (along with my wife).

After reading the responses, logic finally kicked in and it all makes sense that the ammo would go essentially no where in a house fire.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:25 PM
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Well, yeah... UL testing, other labs etc etc.... cool story.

Today we have a more authoritative source of scientifical information...

MYTHBUSTERS!

MythBusters Episode 85: Red Rag to a Bull
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:44 PM
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It didnt stop my favorite uncle in world war two. I have a certificate of merit award of his for climbing in a burning ammo truck and putting out a fire. I will try and get my wife to scan it and will post it later.
Here it is.

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Old 07-15-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishslayer View Post
Well, yeah... UL testing, other labs etc etc.... cool story.

Today we have a more authoritative source of scientifical information...

MYTHBUSTERS!

MythBusters Episode 85: Red Rag to a Bull
A gun can fire a bullet with lethal force if stored inside a hot oven.

The Mythbusters placed a loaded .38 caliber revolver inside a hot oven pointing towards the oven door. Once the temperature was high enough, the gun automatically discharged and sent the bullet out of the oven, which could potentially kill anybody who happened to be standing in front of the oven.

confirmed


Hmmm, when you think about it, the Mythbuster test makes some sense. If the round is chambered, there's no way the case can rupture so the bullet "could" cause a deadly result whereas loose ammo would do exactly as noted in other posts. Am I missing something or do I have it right?
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kent11202 View Post
Hmmm, when you think about it, the Mythbuster test makes some sense. If the round is chambered, there's no way the case can rupture so the bullet "could" cause a deadly result whereas loose ammo would do exactly as noted in other posts. Am I missing something or do I have it right?
If the cartridge cooks off inside a chamber it will behave just as if the trigger had been pulled. My guess (unscientific) would be that the primer would cook off before the powder?

As I understand it, though, as temperatyre increases so does chamber pressure..."

So if a round in a chamber not aligned with the barrel cooked off & blew the cylinder out of the gun...

Ahhh man. Now I have a headache...

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Old 07-15-2012, 01:24 PM
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There was a large house fire in my neighborhood a while back.
Explosive noises woke me up and continued for a while. The local
volunteer fire department showed up and went to work anyway.

The fire started in a garage. I'm no expert, but I think the explosions
were more likely gasoline in the cars/mower, and cans of paint and such.

Sounded too loud for ammo cooking off to me. I have heard some .22 cooked in a burn barrel at a gun club. More of a pop than
a BANG, in those cases.
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkk41 View Post
When ammo's in a fire , the casings become the projectile , with very little velocity. (Anyone else ever throw a .22 in the campfire?) Perhaps the chambered round(s) in a loaded pistol could ''cook off''. An auto might even cycle , though the rounds in the mag would probably get hot and rupture first.
I had a friend who threw a .22 round in a campfire. He ended up with a small cut on his foot. No big deal. About ten years later he noticed a lump just under the skin. Eventually it ruptured and his foot expelled a little hunk of brass.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:09 PM
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Years back I was a volunteer fire fighter, we fought a couple fires that had ammo involved. NO problem just a lot of little pops ,like strung together small firecrackers going off. Brass goes up to a foot or so (pieces), the projectile remains basically unmoved.

Let me tell you there are a lot worse things you can encounter at a fire scene than small arms ammo.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYlakesider View Post
Let me tell you there are a lot worse things you can encounter at a fire scene than small arms ammo.
Propane & SCUBA tanks leap to mind...
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:25 PM
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I don't know about scuba tanks, but most newer propane tanks have a pop valve that is supposed to melt and release the gas before exploding. The one in the fire two weeks ago apparently did not have the safety valve. When that thing blew up it sound like a bomb going off. It shook the ground and got everybody's attention, especially after the hot coals and ashes started comiiing down.
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
If you mean Underwriters Laboratories, I've been with the company for over 30 years and have heard nothing of our conducting any testing in this area.
If I remember correctly, it was done in conjunction with Sandia Labs in response to the fires that swept California in the 80s.
It was in response to Fire Fighters concerns about the hazards posed by burning ammo.

Anyway, here's a report from SAAMI on burning ammo:
http://www.saami.org/specifications_...Ammunition.pdf
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:12 PM
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Feralmerril the way I read that citation your Uncle was one brave guy. Served in a Glider Artillery Battery and put out a fire in an Arty ammo truck!!!!. The 320th was using 105mm howitzers in Europe so if just one shell had cooked off the truck would have been gone. The casing, fuzes and projectile should have been stored separately of course but still, we're not talking about small arms ammo here. The 320ths was also one of the Glider Arty Batteries that air dropped at D-day, not all did in spite of thier Glider designation.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:30 PM
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See Hatcher's Notebook. The subject has been explored. Loaded weapons will fire if heated enough. We have all heard of cook-offs. Loose or boxed ammo is no threat to anyone. The stories about holding a match under a cartidge until it goes off and produces a gunshot wound originate by the group involved attempting to conceal unauthorized access to a weapon.

Seems like trauma counciling is required, by any who are in the area of the incident.

Regards,

Tam 3
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:15 PM
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Good replies guys. I wasn't all that concerned about the shells as folks very knowledgeably have noted, unless they are chambered, they should be OK. And living just up the road from the BlueGrass Army Depot, where we store Sarin, VX and Mustard Gas, I have the good fortune of having "experts" point out when I don't store correctly. :-)

My interest was in the insurance company response as I could easily see them saying "you provided an obstacle to the fire department correctly doing their job so..."

Part of me wants to chat with my agent of 35 years and the other part doesn't like opening up cans of worms...they usually smell at the very least.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:37 PM
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I don't know anything about the insurance company's response but I can speak from experience about ammo going off in a house fire. I am a retired professional Fire Lt and have fought fire on two seperate occassions in houses containing a lot of ammo, including shotgun shells. On one occassion I was within two or three feet of a closet full of ammo. It was constantly going off but we paid no attention to it. There is no excuse for a professional fire dept to allow a building to be destroyed by fire for this reason. My suggestion to them would be to do a little research and some serious training. There are more serious dangers in a house fire than exploding ammo.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:21 PM
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I think any BP shells might be of quite a bit more danger to the FD, but still not a significant danger.
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:55 PM
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A few years ago the fire department was going around looking at houses out in the rural areas of the county where my cousin lives. When the fire chief got to my cousin's house and was looking around, my cousin told him that if the house ever caught on fire, for them to just sit at the top of the hill and wait until all the ammo finished cooking off. He said he knew that individual rounds would just pop but he wasn't sure what would happen with 3000-5000 rounds of 5.56 in ammo cans. So just wait till the fire dies down and put out the embers. I don't know what his insurance company would think about that but the fire chief told him OK.

CW
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Old 07-15-2012, 09:55 PM
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Maybe some of you remember Kinematics Research, an ammo plant in Oakland Tennessee, explode and burn in Jan.2011. One of my best customers is an outfit called Environmental Pneumatics the ammo plants next door neighbor on the right side, about 150 feet from where it stood. It's one of those buildings that has a good deal of sheet metal in the back and there no damage whatsoever. Shell casings all over the place but not a single bullet hole.

Explosion kills one at Tennessee ammunition plant | Reuters
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:39 PM
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Black powder shells would be much more likely to send shards of brass, and especially modern plastic hulled steel headed shotshells when loaded with holy black might be very destructive.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:44 PM
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All interesting responses so far. And I agree the group that call themselves firemen but let the place burn need other occupations.

Almost all of us who have gas grills have 2 tanks. One in the grill we're working on and the other full so it doesn't ruin a cook out. But I'm guessing my oxygen and acetylene tanks out in the garage might provide interesting results. Probably the oxygen the most. And once the heat got high enough to get the oxygen to let go, the acetylene would probably be right with it. Maybe I should store my out of code CO2 extinguishers next to them. I have great sympathy for my neighbor on that side. The blast would shield me and our house with 2 vehicles. On the neighbors side, just the stud wall of the garage. Kaboom!
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:56 AM
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In the very early 80's, when I first started reloading, I called Columbus, Ohio fire prevention to ask what type of fire extinguisher to have at the loading bench. The first guy said it didn't matter as I would just blow up, I knew this was wrong and ask for someone else. The Bomb squad had no idea what to do. After about half an hour of bad answers and on hold an instructor at the fire accadamy came on line, he was a trap shooter and said to keep bucket of water close by to douse a loose powder fire and a normal household fire extinguisher (5A,5B,10C I think) to put out anything the powder fire may have started. He ask some informed questions about my reloading and wished me a nice day. I hope he passed the word about correct fire safty around the dept. Ivan
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:01 PM
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When I had my house fire in 2009, I kept all my Ammo on a cart next to my gun safe. I grabbed the cart and my Laptop before I went out the door. but all my vintage ammo was in display cases and or on shelves around the house. and it was left there. the ammo started popping off before the Fire Department arrived and I stood there with a garden hose outside trying to slow the flames, this was all within 5 minutes after the fire started. I warned the Fire Captain when he arrived and they plowed right in anyways. Braver souls could not be found in my opinion.

Dan M
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:58 PM
macman955 macman955 is offline
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Default Ducking exploding bullets?

The below is a press clipping from the Miami Herald on a burning house with ammo inside.
Any comments?

"Florida firefighters duck bullets as house full of ammo burns

A burning house filled with ammunition sent bullets popping off of walls, sailing through the roof, pinging off of fire trucks and plunking onto neighboring lawns.
Firefighters struggled to contain the blaze with the bullets whizzing by them at the North Florida house in Bay County, according to a report by NewsHerald.com in Panama City.

“With all that going off, we didn’t approach the fire because the lives of our personnel are worth more than the [property] damage,” said Battalion Chief Darrel Wise with Bay County Fire and Rescue."
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:12 PM
brucev brucev is offline
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"Florida firefighters duck bullets as house full of ammo burns

A burning house filled with ammunition sent bullets popping off of walls, sailing through the roof, pinging off of fire trucks and plunking onto neighboring lawns.
Firefighters struggled to contain the blaze with the bullets whizzing by them at the North Florida house in Bay County, according to a report by NewsHerald.com in Panama City.

“With all that going off, we didn’t approach the fire because the lives of our personnel are worth more than the [property] damage,” said Battalion Chief Darrel Wise with Bay County Fire and Rescue."

Complete unmitigated bull hockey. No equivocation at all. No other explanation possible. It doesn't matter who was doing the talking or what might be his rank, etc.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:57 AM
Cooter Brown Cooter Brown is offline
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Like Andy and others have said, the problem would be black power.

Seems a can of Goex would make a pretty solid thump. I've got a whole can in a closet in my office where my other gun stuff is. It's something to consider anyway. Not sure where the best place to keep it would be.

Many years ago when I took my Hunter's Safety course, the DNR instructor was also a volunteer fireman, and when the talk got around to black powder said he didn't "like the stuff", because he didn't want to go into a house on fire where there may be some BP.
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Old 10-18-2019, 06:42 PM
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K Frame Keith K Frame Keith is offline
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Yup, I've got 5 scuba tanks in the house. I've seen pictures and don't want to be around when one blows.
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Old 10-18-2019, 06:50 PM
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I was going to post on this thread when I noticed someone sharing EXACTLY the same story I was going to post! Then I realized it was me -- SEVEN YEARS ago.
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Old 10-18-2019, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macman955 View Post
The below is a press clipping from the Miami Herald on a burning house with ammo inside.
Any comments?

"Florida firefighters duck bullets as house full of ammo burns

A burning house filled with ammunition sent bullets popping off of walls, sailing through the roof, pinging off of fire trucks and plunking onto neighboring lawns.
Firefighters struggled to contain the blaze with the bullets whizzing by them at the North Florida house in Bay County, according to a report by NewsHerald.com in Panama City.

“With all that going off, we didn’t approach the fire because the lives of our personnel are worth more than the [property] damage,” said Battalion Chief Darrel Wise with Bay County Fire and Rescue."

Horse manure.
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