I know I am going to open a can of worms that has been opened many times over. During the recent robbery at the internet cafe in Florida where the old man chased both suspects away with his EDC he managed to shoot the one suspect in the arm but he hit the other suspect in the butt and in the other hip - NEITHER SUSPECT WAS STOPPED - in fact they barely slowed down.

I guess my point is - I know shot placement is paramount - but, if he had shot the one suspect in the butt and hip with a 9mm +p, .357, 40, 45 I think the outcome might have been a little different. This is really making me reconsider my EDC choice - I usually carry a p3at every day. Sometimes in conjunction with a 649, 3913, 642, Colt Cobra, Dick Special, etc. but I always have my .380 with me - now - who knows?

I would never "settle" for a 380. But at least he had a gun and was willing to use it.

In this case it just happened to be enough. Might be a different story with a detemined attacker.

I'm with Kanewpadle.
I'm not trusting my life to 9mm or anything below that
energy wise to protect my family or myself.
Maybe as a BUG but not primary carry weapon.
But to each his own.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I tend to disagree in this case . . . or should I say maybe, maybe not. You don't necessarily stop bad guys by shooting them in the arm, butt, or hip no matter what handgun round you are using.

Case in point, the analysis of the 1986 Miami/FBI shoothout with two bank robbers showed one subject was killed after 6 hits, the other after 12 hits. Two agents were killed and 5 wounded in the shootout. The FBI agents were using 9mm and .38 +P, but one bank robber (who was not drugged up) continued to fight on even after fatal hits.

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- Change it back -

I CC a 9MM...I hope I neve have to use it....but confident it will do it's job if I do mine. I would not carry anything lighter.

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Lt. Dan, what R U doing here?

I went from a .380 to a 9mm for this reason. I still have the .380, but as a man stopper, it falls in the "better than nothing" category. I have not had to shoot anyone and hope I don't have to.

I have confidence in my Sigma 9mm loaded with 16 PDX1 124 +Ps. Sometimes I'll have my Sig P250c 40sw loaded with 13 PDX1 165 BHPs instead.

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_It was love at first shot_

Different story if they were hit in the neck or the head, possibly the chest cavity as well. However, I would suspect being hit in the arm or buttocks with a deep penetrating higher energy round may have had a different outcome.

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Even older, even crankier....

.40 S&W is bare minimum for me.
Although i regularily carry my model 19 .357 snub
There will be many who carry "less gun" than these
and have every right to do so. It's all about putting
the rounds where they "count".
Getting shot in the butt is only gonna make a guy
run faster thats headed away from you.
And in the case stated, that was a good thing.
No real reason to kill the bad guys in that case.
Bet they won't try that trick again regardless.


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Every night after dinner I put my LCP in my pocket and take a 3 mile walk. Now if I put my P239 Sig or my Model 66 snub in my shorts someones going to call the cops cause some old over weight guy is wearing his pants some place around his ankles walking down the road, Big guns are heavy! I carry the LCP 380 because it's light and it's better then a stick, maybe not as good as a brick but better then nothing . Getting OLD means I can no longer dream of hiding a Barret in my pants!

38 spl was just fine for most cops for decades. 9mm is similar ballistically, with 9mm being superior.

I can understand not wanting to "settle" for 380, fine, but to just discount 9mm like that is being a tad shortsighted.

I feel like 9mm is the cut off point on SD calibers, but I qualify that with someone who is capable of shooting well. A CS or head shot is the goal with any gun, but in this case a heavy bullet might have broken a hip...

That said Faulkner has a good point, fatal and disabling shots are not always the same thing.

One of the overlooked issues in the FBI shooting, was not a caliber issue, but a penetration issue. The newer rounds have alleviated much of that concern. I prefer 45's, 44's, .357's, but I carry 9mm's on occasion and am confident I can get the job done.

I agree. I have carried a 9MM for many years. I don't feel undergunned at all. Not one bit. And I load it with one of the most proven LE ammo available. Win Ranger T 127 +P+.

If you do your part with 9MM or above, it will work just fine.

I'm not advocating one over the other. But how we dress quite often dictates what we carry. That's why I just bought a Springfield XDS 45. Compact. Light. Accurate. And it's a 45!!

Fits in my front pocket the same as my Kahr CM9.

I carry an SP101 .357 Mag, but I tend to believe that any gun is better than no gun. Like you said - the assailant was shot in the buttocks. There's only one way to get shot there - you have to be running away. So, the gun did its job. It ended the attack & sent the bad guys running.

How goes that saying go?
You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to live.

Amen, Hillbilly!
Arguing about caliber is like arguing about religion, except the caliber argument won't make your mother-in-law hate you.
I say: carry what you can handle, in a gun you can conceal, that you're willing to carry on you, that you'll practice with until you need it!

I believe the BG said his gun didn't even function. If this weren't the case, our hero and maybe a few others could have been in serious trouble. A shot in the butt may have caused severe retaliation. Personally, I believe you shoot to kill or don't bother carrying.

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Hold on. SWAT's at my door.

It "stopped" them, they ran away.

Who is to say a shot in the same exact places with another caliber would be any different?, A shot in the butt or the arm would they fall down and die??

Kind of limited to CC here in Fl, shorts and T shirts it's hard to hide a 45.

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Still Running Against the Wind

But... I don't want to just stop them... oh, no...
If I pull my handgun I want to kill them with one shot, as fast as possible as the circumstances will allow!

This requires two things...

1) Shot placement...
You have got to be very precise and make the most accurate shot as fast as possible, with the first shot You just don't want to go to a gun fight, so get that idea out of your head about... "Well, I've got 10 plus shots in my 9mm, so I'm good to go!"... Bull S***!!
If this person has a gun, and you just wound them, you have a high probability of being shot at. Even if they are hit from the neck down!
If at all possible, the #1 shot placement is a point between the two eyes and the tip of their nose... this has been called the "Triangle of Death". A close range shot, with a .357 magnum or larger, is the fastest death possible. It will also knock out all motor control to the body immediately.
You need to be able to hit a 3" target, at a range of 15 feet, on the first shot, as fast as possible... consistently!
A little practice... maybe!?

2) Caliber...

.357 magnum or larger.
Using .38 special, or .44 special is good to keep limbered up with, then you switch to the max loads for real practice... using .357 magnum, or .44 magnum!
"But the recoil is bad and they hurt my little hands... and they're so loud."
It can also get loud and hurt in a operating room while they're taking a bullet out of your butt... You choice!!

Not any more!

According to the ballistics researchers, who study ACTUAL shootings, unless the handgun shot hits brain or spine, very few suffer much immediate problems. I have interviewed 18 people who have been shot with calibers from 22 lr to 44 magnum. I know 2 that have been shot with a 44 magnum, 3 with a 45 ACP, and a mix of other caliber. Interestingly the only guy that went down and wallowed on the ground whimpering, was an employee of mine, that was messing with a married woman. Seems her hubby drug him out of the bar and shot him in the thigh. Went down to a muscle hit, no bone encountered. He showed up for work the next day but said it felt like a hot nail was driven through him. Oh the caliber of gun used on my not overly bright employee, a 25 ACP. Go figure.

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Still Running Against the Wind

As important as shot placement is (and it is #1) the .380 has very little shock/stopping power especially with standard ball ammo (if that was what he used).

IMHO the .38 special 158 grain +P is a minimum of what I would say is at least adequate with proper shot placement. Again...... we are talking STOPPING POWER, and NOT killing power. If a BG dies 3 hours after shooting someone because he was able to, the fact that the bullet eventually killed him is a MOOT POINT. Just my opinion of course.....

Chief38


I do own a .380 acp but would NEVER carry it for SD purposes. The only reason I own it is because I collect Colt 1903 & 1908 Pocket Pistols.

I wear cargo shorts all summer long. This fits in my right front pocket just fine. Not too big. Not too heavy.
XD-S Compact 45ACP Pistol | Springfield Armory USA

So much for mouse guns.

People talk about placement. Yes it's important. But we can't use it as an excuse to carry a lesser caliber. Placement is paramount but it doesn't mean anything unless we use a service caliber gun.

I have one on order. I like that gun. Still not a pocket gun for me, I would have to holster it. I hate IWB holsters. I wear regular Docker type shorts. My PM 9 is the best fit of any of them so far. I had a PM 45 which was so much of a problem I sent it back to Kahr 3 times and then they replaced it. I sold it.

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Still Running Against the Wind

My definition for "stopping power" is "killing power"!
They are not stopped until dead! If they live for three hours after you shoot them, they are not stopped from pulling a trigger!
This isn't a game... talking and thoughts of wounding are over.
The "last word" better come from your Smith & Wesson as soon as possible!!

Don't say that too loud. Unfriendlies frequent this site too.

From what I've heard it's the same size as the PM45. Near identical size as the Shield. And I'm serious about it fitting in my pocket. Doesn't print at all. I hate wearing any type of holster in warm weather.

But.. but... Kanewpadle...

The "Unfriendlies" were the ones I was talking about!

Shooting them won't help.

A muzzleloading pistol was just fine for alot of years too.
But you don't see alot of people carrying that for SD.
Carry what you want like i said. Its your funeral.

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

I suspect the state of mind of the perpetrator has a lot to do with 'stopping power'. Someone who is doped up or distraught (murder suicide type) isn't going down immediately unless its a CNS shot.

Stopping Power threads are almost as good or bad as BEAR threads. There is even it's own Forum

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Still Running Against the Wind

Like he said this keeps going around. But carry what you can shoot well and practice with it regularly. If you interviewed the guy doing the shooting I bet he'd wouldn't say he was aiming for an arm or a butt. Atleast if he was honest.
So does anyone know what he was carrying? I haven't seen anything that says.
And as far a legal issues go, you were aiming for an extremity. An old sergeant in MP school said 'you were aiming for the extremities, but remember one story is easier to tell than two'.

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Pete.

Without being a Ballistics Expert, I would think that STOPPING POWER is directly related to the combinations of shot placement, mass of bullet, velocity of projectile, expansion, adrenalin factor, as well as other things that I am unaware of.

When we are under stress and shooting at moving targets, obviously shot placement is going to be the first factor that suffers. To minimize the other factors by using a small caliber, light weight, non expanding bullet is just making the likelihood of a one shot (or even multiple shot) stop a whole lot less likely.

I am NOT proclaiming the 158 grain .38 Special +P the most proficient, but given the size of the package you need to conceal and the reliability of the weapon, IMHO it's high on the list of CCW weapons.

Chief38

OK ........
Oh and btw the "triangle of death" as you put it is a good bit south of where you think it is-at least it is with Mary Lou

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Forum consigliere

I'm not touching this one.Put the lid back on the can.

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Blessed be the Lord,my Rock

I enjoyed your post but I have a different view as follows:

1. Stopping a malefactor obviously includes physically rendering them incapable of furthur resistance or meaningful action -- i.e. physiological damage to bone, nerves, organs, muscle -- the amount of damage this takes will vary from person to person just as different people have different tolerances to alcohol

2. Equally as important, is the psychological reaction of the malefactor just struck by a bullet -- there are studies both civilian and military that show that the simple fact of being struck by a bullet takes many folks out of the confrontation, with a synergistic effect if hit by multiple bullets. My thought has been that if you hit a malefactor with 2 rounds, say in the stomach and an arm or leg, most will not want to continue the fight, and particularly if you hit them in the face and stomach -- two distinct areas will hurt like fire.
I know from my own experience with boxing and fistfights (long story, that), that you can take the fight out of someone with one or two good punches. There are those, of course, you will be in the fight for the duration. Bottom line is that studies do exist that support the psychological "hit" of just being hit by a bullet as taking lots of folks out of the fight --
many bad guys are cowards who "did not sign up to take a bullet".

I have seen bad guys hit in an extremity with a rifle bullet (hit in arm or leg) immediately cease resistance or run away even though the wound was clearly not fatal -- I feel very strongly (having not had the opportunity to interview said bad person) that the shock/adrenaline factor/"holy cow poo, I've been hit" impacts the psyche so hard that they give up the fight right then.

That being said, I do agree that bigger caliber often is the trump card, yet, -- better to carry even a smaller caliber weapon rather than point a cell phone holster at the malefactor and yell "Bang".

If they have a gun, this is the best way to do it!

Be sure you read what is printed in the video...

SWAT SNIPER HEADSHOT - YouTube

If someone is hit with a bullet in a non critical area i.e. other then brain/heart. It would seem to be logical that a larger cal = a bigger hole = more blood loss = person quits functioning faster.

For a sure thing "one shot stop" however I'm thinking you'd want at least a 105MM. People have been known to take multiple hits from a .357 or .45 and continue the fight. Others have dropped like a rock after one from a .22 or .25

I like 9mm.

...old time cops on the beat used to achieve instant stopping power with a sap or black jack because they knew WHERE to hit the perp...knees...groin...temple...same applies to smaller calibers...shot placement is everything...

At the range playing around... shooting at targets that do not shoot back even doing tacticool type stuff is one thing. Engaging a criminal is something entirely different. It's not unlike shooting deer targets from field positions at the range and then actually seeing a deer in the woods and shooting that deer from a field position. It is not the same thing.

The situation referenced in the OP is that sort of something else that happily turned out good for everyone concerned. The caliber of the pistol is of about as much importance as what caliber one uses in a deer gun. Around the camp fire, everyone opines as to knockdown power, stopping power, etc. Those devoted to big heavy bullets object when those who like fast light bullets praise their choice for hunting, and vice versa. Meantime the fellow at the meat locker dresses out the deer that are brought in and notes they all died when bullets made holes in them and that some of the holes were not as well placed as others. And... even some of the deer shot with really powerful short/long magnum rounds ran 50, 100 or more yds. before they decided to cooperate and stop running and give up the ghost. This is not unlike the criminals who had the temerity to run when shot at.

So... since we are just sitting around the camp fire (actually I'm drinking coffee while sitting on the couch) and since we are not actually talking about a situation in which we've been personally involved, what about the man's choice of caliber, etc.? Personally... I don't care. If your going to cc, you have to accept the simple fact that no matter what you cc, it is only a handgun. It is not a death ray. If a large caliber makes someone feel better, fine. If someone prefers a design that affords them more capacity, fine. If someone prefers a revolver over a pistol, fine. In the end it is not going to matter a whole lot. What will matter is how effectively one can use what one is cc. It will matter if the criminals involved are real hard bitten pipe benders or if they are inexperienced wanabees out to heist a few bucks at a local restaurant.

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<><

So, brucev...

The caliber doesn't matter?
A .25acp has been known to be deflected and not penetrate a human skull at short range... wonder if a .44 magnum would do the same?
Can you also tell me how big, and "real hard bitten", a man needs to be before he can survive a shot between the eyes with a large caliber gun?

"What will matter is how effectively one can use what one is cc."... How true! But, it's not going to be small!

*sip*.. *sip*.. good coffee!

Either you are blessed with great skill with a handgun and immune to distraction, or you are grossly over estimating the time you will have to make the shot while ignoring the effects a real SHTF scenario entails. The perp will be moving and your feet and body may not be in the right place for a good stance. Most of us here never get the chance to train in those situations unless we pay a bunch of money for a specific training course.

Somebody recently posted on here about shooting with his Dad, an excellent and speedy target shooter. The effects of just a bunch of extra noise and distraction in the shooter's peripheral vision were quite marked, and their targets were stationary.

The whole purpose with a CC and home defense firearm use is to defend yourself/property/loved ones etc... Doesn't matter what caliber one is carrying or how many shots hit their intended target, if the aggressor is turned away the use of the firearm met its purpose. As Moondawg said, if they die as a result so be it. It is not our responsibility nor our right to "kill" this individual.

I don't think it matters what caliber you are carrying. There is a difference in the damage each caliber will do, but what the damage means is purely subjective. If a person really is hell bent on doing someone harm-they will do it. It's up to us good citizens to respond with the appropriate violence to PROTECT what is ours to protect. Any discharge of a firearm that is not directed at a target is an act of violence, whether it is justified or not.

This post is not intended to offend anyone or start an argument. I merely wanted to say my peace on the subject matter.

Of the original list as far as I am concerned, the.357 and the .45 ACP are the only two considerations.