I don't have much experience with the 44 special nor shot that much 38 special. But can you experienced shooters compare the 38 special, the 44 special and the 45acp for me in a CCW situation?? Is one better than the other in close quarter combat?

Power wise?

Accuracy?

stopping power?

You just opened up a Pandora's Box of caliber comparison ...

All are fine rounds; all have certain limitations.

Shot placement is key ... better to hit something than miss it, irrespective of caliber.

In three identical CQ self defense scenarios, with all factors being equal, bigger may indeed be best.

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I'm with the banned ...

Basically,

How's YOUR accuracy from 3' to 12'?

Mostly 3' to 6' for CIVILIAN defensive actions.

BASICALLY, YOU either turn off the BRAIN BOX with ACCURACY, or

you hope for a quicker BLEED-OUT WITH CALIBER AND BULLET STYLE.

Life or Death situations are VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS and not a speculative forum for the firearm novice.

Get REAL TRAINING, READ, Firearms and Ammo both for practice (continual) and defense is EXPENSIVE, get used to it, it will never get cheaper.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

You will get a mountain of oppinions and some fact. Basicly a heavy. 44 or. 45 bullet should be a better stopper. It doesnt end there. A light snub in. 38 can be carried in the pocket and still is usualy effective too. You are far more apt to actualy pack your light snub. 38 than your. 44 special or heavy. 45 auto after the novelty wears off.

I hate ballistic comparisons and usually do not get involved. But I will. Having chronographed all the mentioned rounds.

The only good one is a 12 gauge. There now that is out of the way.

In fear of flames I do not think much of the standard 38 special out of snub.
It is a anemic round compared to 44 Special and 45 ACP. But heck I carry a 9mm short. (380)And a real 9mm . I much rather carry a pocket 9 mm with 7 rounds that a J frame with 5. That's just me

A 38 +P with the right bullet is effective at close range.

Any 44 or 45 trumps the 38 special IMO. Shot placement being equal.

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Still Running Against the Wind

I believe the .44 Special and the .45 ACP have very similar ballistics.

The late great Bill Jordan said the 38 Special is the most powerful round the average shooter can gain the most proficiency with, the late great Jim Cirillo was pretty deadly with one, and I think Charlie Askins was also quite deadly with the 38. As others have noted, shot placement is critical-and few of us are that accurate under stress. But hits with a 38 Special hurt a lot more than misses with more powerful calibers.

I have 3 .45s, but when I went out the door to church this morning, it was my 642CT in its Robert Mika holster that dropped into my pocket. If I'd been headed into the city, I might have taken time to outfit myself with a 1911, but as someone else noted, a .38 in your pocket is worth more than a .45 at home in the drawer or safe. The great thing about the J-frame is that you don't have to make a decision about what to wear for concealment.

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Rick, W0FG
CTR2 68-72

The Army found that 38 long Colt out of a 5" to 6" revolver wouldn't stop a druged up attacker so they went to the 45 Colts that they had in storage, even issued some Colt new service DA revolvers in 45 colt chambers, but new Frankfort Arsenal ammo was in 45 US ( a 45 S&W length case with a 45Colt rim dia., a 230 grain lead bullet at about 830FPS). The 44Russian and Special loads at the time were 246 grains of lead at just under 800FPS, the Classic 45Colt load is 855 grains of lead at whatever speed the powder pushed it at, but around 900fps is a 7.5" SAA. And of course the Ball ACP is 230 grain JRN @ 830 FPS in a 5" 1911. In real life, Carry guns are short so you get less volicity. But big slow chunks of lead seem to end self defence problems better than small slow chunks of lead. But what do I carry? Most days a Mod-49 1 7/8", with 135 grain +P's, On some days a 3.25" 45acp auto with 230 grain Hydroshocks. Depends on my mood when I dress that day. I have a Medium frame 5 shot 44 Special Tarus, that I never carry, don't even have a belt holster for! Go with what YOU know works! Try and find some friends with lots of handguns and see if you can bring ammo and try them out. Just feeling the recoil, the weight of the guns, the group size and any sort of expantion test at say 30 feet will give you real info for compairison. It is your life you're defending, don't let me or others decide for you, do your homework and field work, spend some money on reserch, make a thought out informed decision, then practice. After about a year many people go to a second gun to cover the times the first gun was inappropriate (think back up gun). Also you will have holsters (yes with a "s") for different times, clothes, or seasons. for each gun. Try them in different positions, like every inch around the side of your waist, you'll be suprised at the comfort change an inch can make. I know it is easy for me to say but, "It's only money" Ivan

I used to take the caliber wars much more seriously. I now consider ANY pistol caliber round marginal for defense. IMHO good loads well placed are all probably about equally effective (?) in the real world. Common sense, good tactics, mindset and a stone reliable weapon are probably much more to the point anyway.

Caliber selection is just a small part of the self defense equation. Some people worry about it more than others.

If you could guaranty that you could hit your intended target under pressure, in any condition, and at a target that may be moving, then caliber selection is not so important.

Since most of us can't guaranty such accuracy under those conditions and will probably need to expend more rounds to stop the attacker, again, caliber isn't as important.

Two or three (or more) good hits with a 38/9MM are no better or worse than a larger caliber.

Stick with what you shoot well and practice. And stick with what you can shoot rapidly while staying on target.

Mc5aw pretty much covered it.

I would add though, unless you reload or are wealthy, .44 special is an expensive caliber to shoot. Unless one of the 2 prior descriptions fits you, you will not shoot it enough to achieve the level of proficiency you should with a CCW weapon. .45 is the best choice, but it will require your master semi-autos as well as shooting, unless you are going to fork over big bucks for a 625 etc. .38 is the most affordable round and in most cases, starting with a revolver will end up making you a better shooter. It is also easier to master, more dependable for a newbie and a cheaper alternative. JMO.

StatesRightist makes a very valid point re: practice and proficiency. If you can't afford to sufficiently practice with Model A due to high ammo costs, you best go to Model B or C. Between .38, .44 Special, and .45 ACP, the .44s are the least cost effective.

I've also gotten some excellent advice recently (on and off line) from forum members as to .45 ACP carry guns. I asked for opinions on a Colt New Agent vs. a S&W 325/625, and the support was unanimous in favor of the Colt. The consensus opinion was due primarily to size and weight of the Colt vs. the Smith. Realistically, .45 ACP is a great round for self defense, but it may not be as practical based upon the platform that supports it. I know quite a few folks carry 1911s, and if that works for them, fine. For most average physiques like myself however, anything other than a compact 1911 is too much. And shooting a compact .45 ACP with precision is not easy; lots of range time is required to master it to a similar level of proficiency that a competent shooter can manipulate a standard J-frame. Springfield makes the micro XDs in .45ACP, but I have not read enough feedback from owners to comment yea or nay.

I have a 1985-vintage 624 snub in .44 Special that is a magnificent revolver. Perfectly balanced, expertly crafted, and a joy to shoot. It is ideal to carry when hiking in the woods, as it packs enough juice to take care of most critters. However, I tried lugging it around as a CCW ... no go. Too big, too heavy, too tough to conceal. Therefore, I stay with my J-frames as I wait for my New Agent.

What others have said holds true ... find the handgun and caliber that works best for your needs.

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I'm with the banned ...

Simple. A K-frame in .357 and you can shoot .38 on the cheep.

The .45 ACP is a great round but as stated 625's are expensive. I'd like to find one I could afford.

Good auto's in .45 ain't cheep either.

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Dum vivo cano

Or a Ruger SP101. Shoot both and little easier to conceal.

I forgot about the concealment part. To many threads about mag. vs hunting vs CCW.

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Dum vivo cano

I like 'em all, and have spent many years carrying various calibers.

Today? I still like 'em all, but have discovered that the only thing that I KNOW will work in the pocket all the time is my S&W .38 Spl. Airweight revolver . . . lighter than my all-steel one so it will conceal easily yet just heavy enough to control well. THUS, if I could have only one SD handgun, it would HAVE to be the .38Spl. Airweight!

Occasionally I'll tote my 3" Model 65 .357 mag., or my chopped, custom 3 1/4" bbl. Model 25-2 (.45ACP) revolver . . . or a compact or full size 1911 but frankly . . . the J frame is about all I usually need or desire to tote.

INDOORS . . .
Indoors a .357, 45ACP, 44 Spl., etc can over-penetrate and possibly kill an innocent family member or other person. When I load my .357 as a house gun I download it to .38 Spl.

Lee Harvey Oswald killed officer Tippett with a .38 . . . then Jack Ruby returned the favor, shooting Oswald in the gut ("to make him hurt as much as possible until he died," Ruby said) with his Colt Detective Special in .38 Spl.

The "lowly .38" CAN get the job done, and I trust my life to one every day. Light, convenient . . . and WHO would want to be shot by one anyway!!!

PS: Today's deer kill was via my Model 29 in .44 Magnum . . . different needs = different calibers . . . and they are ALL fun to shoot!!!

The .38 Special is just plain anemic.
That said I carried a Snubby .38 J-Frame with a New York reload of Snubby .22 RF when I went out to dinner with the kids tonight.
I was to lazy to take off my sweat pants and put on pants with a belt to "gun up".

I really like the .45 acp and full size 1911's.
When I'm feeling like a change I'll carry a .357 with Double Tap's 125's@ 1600fps. Or a 44 Mag with Corbon's 165's @ 1300 fps which is a really lite and easy to shoot 44 Mag.

Random thoughts to go in the pile.

Emory

Here is an interesting research study by Greg Ellifritz on this issue. The conclusion was that there was little difference in actual street effectiveness among the common handgun calibers. Rifles and shotguns were clearly superior.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

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I like Ike.

Actually, the article points to the fact a certain percentage of people will stop their attack when shot, caliber aside. Any other conclusions really are not justified by the "research." The author essentially says his numbers are skewed with some calibers and not to draw much in the way of effectiveness since his "study" does not take into account cover, barrier penetration or heavy clothing. JMO, YMMV.

I tend to look at those 3 in different ways;
The .44 Special: it's a favorite of mine, provides darn near .45ACP ballistics in a platform that can be small enough to carry, even if some of the revolvers out there chambered for it or of questionable build (Taurus and Chater, the latter of which I've never had a problem!). But it's never been very popular and defense orientated ammo is rare and expensive save for the Blazer 200gr. Gold Dot. Plus your limited to a 5 round capacity.
.45ACP: The darling of the big bore semi-auto crowd. It has had more BS stories laid at its feet than any other round out there. But it does work most of the time, but not all of the time! There are some very tiny 1911 and other designs out there for this round that are perfectly suitable for CCW, but you pay for it in terms of recoil and possibly reliability. There are GOBS of excellent defensive rounds out there for the old warrior, but like the .44Spl. they're expensive to shoot and one must make certain that their weapon is 100% reliable with the chosen load. And I like the .45 too.
.38 Special: For the better part of the twentieth century both police and military carried and used it, it's never been a "earth shaker" in terms of ballistic authority, matter of fact it wasn't until hollow points that none if these rounds were all that great except in the hands of those that knew placement was/is everything. It can be had in tiny J frames for pocket carry, and medium K frames for belt or shoulder holster carry in the colder months, and new technology ammunition is available for it as well, although instill like the old 158gr.+P lead hollow point in both platforms. Plus it's just a lot of fun to shoot and cheap to reload.
Bottom line: All three are capable of outstanding accuracy, are fairly gentle in terms of recoil, and proven fight stoppers if used correctly. That said, I prefer the .38 (and the 9mm) as it does everything the bigger bores do but with less pinosh and fanfare. Somebody once called the .38 Special "The underrated achiever" that to me pretty much sums it up. Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

+1 on what you will usually carry. I tried a 45 Compact. tough to carry, and wasnt comfortable to shoot so I didnt much. Now carry every day a compact 9, and shoot regularly.

Havin said that - IF I head out the door looking for trouble - I have the 45 and 3 extra mags. And prob don't give a flip about concealment. If/when I go to the woods - it is a Ruger SA in either 44 Spc or 45 Colt. If I flat want to put someone down - no questions asked - it is the 1911 45 ACP or Ruger in 44/45. I would not hesitate to defend myself with a SA revolver because I shoot them a lot and am very comfortable with them.

Have a 38 SPC - to punch paper with. Would really hate to have to defend myself with one. Just MHO... Push comes to shove I am of the Keith big hole mentality!

Welcome to another opening salvo in the caliber wars. It is hard to offer such a broad comparison because personal preference plays so much into picking one of those three. The other thing is that different loadings of those three send the power levels all over the map. A standard 158 grain lead round nose .38 Special is certainly nothing compared to a stout round like the later .38-44 High Velocity, or even a good 125 grain JHP +P like the Golden Saber. A standard .44 Special is three or four hundred fps behind what a good handload in a Ruger or Smith revolver is capable of. The .45 ACP is a great caliber all the way around but not a great beginners round. Is your preference for a revolver or a semi auto pistol? A good revolver in .38 Special like a little J-frame is excellent for concealed carry. On the other hand a little .45 ACP subcompact is nice too. Look around, see which one fits you the best and go from there. Are you going to handload, because that kind of limits you on the .44 Special if you don't. You have some good choices in factory ammo with .38 Special and .45 ACP. Look at them all because the choice will ultimately be yours and yours alone.

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Vaya con Dios

Over the years,
The .38 special has blown out a many of badguys lamp.
There is no "majic" pill.
Shot placement is the key.

The "best" caliber debate has lasted for decades.
Shoot what you can hit with.
My 2cents.

2 shots in the 10 ring is pretty much gonna mess up anyones day..regardless caliber.

I know I have changed my opinion recently, but I now carry:

HK P2000 .40 LEM ---- ( I also highly recommend the XDM .40 Compact -
similar safe trigger by the way). I am considering the factory .357 Sig/auto barrel
... same mags used too!

or my S&W 627

Here is why:

The first has 12+1 of .40 which is in between the power of .38+P/9mm and
.44 Special/. 45 ACP ballistics. Luckily, the .40 seems to not over penetrate.
Though this would be bad if an attacker was behind wall, I am using this
round for car, home, and personal defense in urban, and suburban areas.
I think mathematically ballistics and capacity-wise its the best happy medium.
Its ergonomic, small enough for IWB or OWB. Get some night sights from
Meprolight followed by Hornady Critical Defense, Corbon hollow points/Pow'R Ball
, or Speer Gold Dots. You should be safe and confident.

***I used to dislike the .40 and I blame it on the Taurii and Glocks.
The first which was plagued with problems the latter had
ergonomics I didn't care for.

In the rural areas, its time for full house .357 magnum
Hornady Critical Defense hollow points, Corbon hollow points,
or some MagTechs SJHP from the S&W 627 Pro moonclipped 8 shot.

I have read a lot here and other places. I feel like each handgun
suits different purposes extremely well. I never feel under-gunned
in any scenario short of a nightmare scenario.

Those rounds from a practiced, competent shooter along with a
comfortable firearm and at least 8-10+ rounds should warrant
passage from 3 attackers in a worst case scenario.

Otherwise for the most concealable operable firearm, I suggest a
S&W 442, or a similar Night Guard/AirLite/Mountain (shoot little
carry often composite alloy revolver in your favored caliber).
Hornady Critical Defense in 158 gr or something like Buffalo Bore
wadcutter/hollow points in 158 gr come as first choice.

Who was it that said, "The 357 magnum is a good round, but I've seen 38's careen off of windshields"

Oh yea. DIRTY HARRY. Case closed. Dirty harry is right. And if you like 38's then you put ketchup on a hotdog and nooobody, I mean NOBODY puts ketchup on a hot dog.

Hence I have to vote for the 44 automag.

Or I can just vote for 44 special since it will knock you on your ***.

^^^ No replacement for displacement?

A recent American Rifleman article had a good comparison on 60-70 different handgun calibers and cartridges. I think it may have been the August or September 2012 issue? The author fired all the ammunition he tested (just about anything available to the general public, in all brands and calibers) into ballistic gelatin and made three measurements: velocity 10ft from the muzzle, penetration distance into the gelatin in inches, and expansion of the bullet as a ratio to original size. It is a good, dispassionate article that merely identifies performance of many bullets.

In an effort to combine the data into a single useable metric, I calculated another measurement: the volume of a tube or cylinder that is the diameter of the expansion size (converted to inches) times the length of the penetration (also in inches). Bigger volume is better as this "lethal tube" will likely hit something of vital importance if it is wide enough and/or long enough.

I wrote up some notes on this for my son on just four calibers (.45, .380 ACP, 9mm, and .22, which are the calibers of interest to the two of us), but the short version to me is that most .45's will outperform (in terms of tube volume) everything else, and there is no statistical difference between .380 ACP and 9mm.

That being said, the crucial factor is where that "lethal tube" is placed on the assailant, so shot placement is key as well. As has been noted above, a .22 will certainly kill an assailant, if placed well. A .45 will not stop an attacker if it doesn't hit something vital. Even if it does, it may take awhile incapacitate him, long enough for him to do you harm. So there is no "magic bullet" (excuse the pun).

My personal choice is a .380 ACP with regular training sessions. The gun is small enough to carry, the bullet creates a respectable "lethal tube", and I practice a lot.

For Civilians who "Do not have to go to the problem as LEO'S do."

The far better choice is to "RUN" before worrying about your caliber choices.

"Getting out of DODGE is a very viable option."

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

I read the American Rifleman article as well, the caveat in it is all the testing was done on bare gelatin. It's been proven multiple times clothing makes a huge difference in how a round performs.

Oh, I've been know to carry a 38 from time to time...Like to Church or
the funeral home, places like that, were concealment was needed.

If I'm going to sumwhere's I wouldn't take a dog.....

Like to hub a lit'l hell, as someone once said 'bout Borger, one time.

I'll be carrying a .44 Spl. or a 45 ACP or Long Colt and probably a rifle too boot.

So, it jest boils down to the right equipment for the task at hand.

All cartridges can be killers, not all are good stoppers.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Good answer, now let's get the popcorn and sit back and watch the show.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

Oh heck, just buy one or the other and see which one you like best!

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But then, what do I know?

The .44 Special and .45 ACP have similar ballistics on paper and ammo cost about the same so that is a wash. Only the platform is different - primarily an auto-pistol for the .45 versus a wheelgun for the .44 Special.

With modern ammunition, the .38 Special, especially +P, is a wicked round too. A JHP +P in 125 gr or 158 gr is an excellent cartridge for anything up to the size of a mountain lion.

I don't think there is enough difference between the .44 Sp and .38 Sp +P to make me buy the .44 Sp. However, a .45 ACP versus a .38 Sp becomes an interesting choice. Can you handle a .45 ACP under duress and hit your target?

Would I prefer bigger? Yes. But go with what you can handle well and will carry with you.

caliber wise, its easier to determine the loser .... 38 spec.
both the 44 spec and the 45 auto will walk all over the 38.
now leaving us with the pair of big bores .. it gets tough.
both seem to fire comparable weights from comparable bores at comparable velocities. I'd say 45 wins for one reason only. 45 has a wider selection of factory loaded ammo and is easier to find in a pinch.
44 special .. some places don't even carry it.

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it just needs more voltage

The real thing to consider should be what do you really, really want to carry concealed? A light .38 snub in your pocket or a .45 auto or a .44 special? I love .44 specials and own 7 of em. I own .45 autos and have them in a full size auto, a 1917 smith and even a 3" colt clone cimmeron single action revolver. I own 4 various .38s. The smith 40 gets carried all the time. Now when I do my favorite activity, trail rideing on the quad I can easly carry any large gun I own. But for CCW, I carry the .38 snub. Point is I have as a collector all the best of the best of the rest, but carry whats light, compact and good nuff.
I had to open carry on my humble guard job for over 35 years and I just dont like the weight. I got too much of that naked! How come .357 mags werent mentioned? I have a number of them too but seldom pack them for the same reason.

I would tend to disagree on that statement. Maybe comparing a factory Cowboy load of 44 Special but not a hand loaded version.

A 44 Special with a 240-250 gr bullet with 7.5 grs Unique is just a tad hotter than any 38 +P

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Still Running Against the Wind

I agree. I've got a .44 Spl load that fires a 225 grain Barnes Copper round at over 1000 FPS, that "ain't no" .38 load I've ever seen.

I'm riding the same horse as Dave.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Elmer loaded them up to 1,200 fps! No .38 is going to come close.

Remember that for SD and CCW is it best to use factory ammunition, Those In The Know advise against using reloads on legal and liability grounds.

The statement was comparing .44 special to .38 special +P ... factory ammo was, I thought, understood

NOT special hand loads and NOT .38 special

come on ppl, don't hijack the thread

As ol Charles Shelton was fond of saying,
'A good big man...Beatin hell out of a good lit'l man.'

I use the 38 Special for general knockin around the place here.
But, favor the larger diameter, as a general rule for more serious work.



This thread needs pictures....




Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

http://www.winchester.com/products/h...es/S38PDB.aspx

Plug in both rounds 44 special and 38 +P Factory ammo. Check the ballistics. Which has more muzzle energy?

Then plug them in here:

Energy Calculator

That being said,both or either would certainly stop a threat. The 44 still out "thumps" a 38 +P

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Still Running Against the Wind

That is another internet myth, There has never been a known published case that proves that. Please name one.

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Still Running Against the Wind

FYI Breaking Bad and Blackhawk..............

While I reload and would load my own loads a little hotter than what I quoted if I were reloading for SD, the round I mentioned IS A commercial load.

For the record, I agree with the carry as big a load as you shoot well group, I have CCW guns all the way down to 32 H&R for different applications. Keith 44 spl makes a good point on that.

I would go by the price of the average target load of the paritcular caliber. The 45acp, I think. is the cheapest of the three. 44 special the highest, then 38 special with 45acp costing around 45 cents a shot.
The reason being you will probably never shoot anyone in self defense, but you will practice a lot at the range.

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Have Gun Will Carry

Check out Corbon's .38 offering if you go with the .38 or Speer's SB offerings.

Maybe this? Handloaded Ammunition: Not a Good Idea for Concealed Carry/Self Defense

I knew this was going to come up. The validity of Mas Ayoob's writings on this subject are regularly questioned.

Here's just one of many examples.

Massad Ayoob, Shawn Dodson, Reply to Ayoob's Kooky Screed

I use commercial ammo b/c frankly, it's failure rate is lower than my own and we usually agree on 99% of our posts, but Ayboob is not necessarily the expert on this subject he claims from what I read. JMO YMMV.

Is he right or wrong, you decide.