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Old 11-02-2012, 07:58 PM
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Default The Pedersen Device

Hope you'll find the following interesting - a bit of firearms history from the "Great War" era.

John



When the United States entered World War I (then known as “the Great War”) in 1917, the quest developed for more effective weapons with which to conduct trench warfare. It was felt that a high-capacity semiauto rifle firing a smaller reduced-power cartridge would be valuable. The standard .30-06 cartridge used in rifles and machine guns was unnecessarily powerful for close work in the trenches, and the manually-operated bolt rifles were slow and awkward to operate.

John Douglas Pedersen, a talented designer who was then working for the Remington-Universal Metallic Cartridge Company in Bridgeport, Connecticut, set about to work on that challenge. The solution he came up with was quite innovative. In the summer of 1917, he requested a secret demonstration of what he had developed for the Army Ordnance Department. Given Pedersen’s sterling reputation for design work, his request was granted and a demonstration was conducted on October 8, 1917. Present were General William Crozier (the Army Chief of Ordnance), and a select few Congressmen, all of whom had been sworn to secrecy. What they saw on that day was revolutionary. Pedersen began the demonstration by firing what appeared to be a standard Model 1903 rifle, operating the bolt normally. After he fired a few shots, he quickly removed the bolt and dropped it into a special pouch attached to his belt. He then produced a strange, longish device from a scabbard on his belt, inserted it into the bolt raceway in the rifle, and latched it in place using the magazine cutoff thumbpiece on the rifle. Then he snapped a magazine holding forty pistol-sized .30 caliber cartridges into the device. This projected at an angle to the right of the rifle, allowing use of the standard sights. He then charged the device by pulling and releasing a heavy spring-loaded block on the back of it. He quickly proceeded to fire 40 shots as fast as he could pull the trigger.

The witnesses to this event were incredibly impressed, and the potential for the use of this invention in trench warfare was immediately recognized. Pederson called it an “automatic bolt” but almost immediately it became known as the Pedersen Device. It operated pretty much like a semiautomatic blowback pistol, but its framework was a slightly-altered Model 1903 rifle. The barrel of the device, which inserted into the chamber, was configured to the dimensions of the standard .30-06 cartridge case, and the small .30-caliber cartridge chambered in the breech of that barrel. This barrel within a barrel was rifled to start the bullet spinning down the regular rifled tube of the rifle. The rifle itself was slightly altered. It had an ejection port cut into the left side of the receiver, and the trigger mechanism was modified to allow both semiautomatic firing and the release of the firing mechanism in the standard bolt. The magazine was secured in place by two spring-loaded catches.

While the cartridges used were similar to .32 ACP pistol rounds, the bullets were .30 caliber, full metal jacketed, and weighed 80 grains. A charge of 3.5 grains of smokeless powder propelled the projectile at approximately 1300 feet per second, resulting in a muzzle energy of about 300 foot-pounds. That doesn’t sound like much, but being fired from a 24-inch barrel, it was way more powerful than similar rounds fired from a pistol. The device itself was carried on the belt in a special metal scabbard with belt hooks, and a web pouch was provided for the standard bolt when removed from the rifle. Two canvas magazine pouches held five magazines each, allowing a basic load of 400 rounds to be carried on the person. Each loaded magazine weighed about a pound, and the device itself weighed a little over two pounds. With rifles using these devices the trenches could easily be dominated with withering fire.

In November of 1917, a sample of the device was delivered by Captain J.C. Beatty to General John Pershing, the U.S. Army Expeditionary Force commander in France. Beatty was sworn to secrecy on the project; it was all classified as Top Secret. On December 9 of that year, General Pershing convened a board consisting of Capt. Beatty and four senior Ordnance officers. They tested the device for rate of fire, accuracy, penetration and reliability. Pershing was so impressed with the results of this test that he sent a memo to the Chief of Ordnance recommending an initial purchase of 100,000 of the devices and 5,000 rounds of ammunition per gun, providing a daily supply of 100 rounds per gun. He strongly believed it would do wonders for their efforts in France. Another memo soon followed, which stated “Desire 25,000 Pedersen attachments to be held in reserve. Replacements 50% per year on devices, and 200% on magazines. Request 40 magazines be shipped with each device. When will shipments be made? -Pershing.” Pershing was anticipating a huge offensive push in the spring of 1919, and wanted lots of these devices.

Because of its Top Secret classification, the device was given the intentionally misleading name of “Automatic Pistol, Caliber .30, Model of 1918, Mark I.” The ammo boxes were marked “40 – CAL. 30 AUTO, PISTOL / BALL CARTRIDGES / MODEL OF 1918” All the ammunition was produced by Remington-UMC, and so marked on the boxes. The production of this ammo caused some speculation and dismay in the press that the armed services were now using some sort of pipsqueak pistol to replace our Model 1911 .45 ACP handgun!

The eventual order placed with Remington was for 133,450 devices, and a contract was let for 800 million cartridges. These would be packed 40 to a box, each box enough to fill one magazine. Rock Island Arsenal produced the pouches for the bolt and magazines, and Graham Manufacturing Company made the scabbards for the device. Springfield Armory began manufacture of the modified ’03 rifle, which was dubbed the “U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1903 Mark I.” As stated, the major differences from the regular ’03 were the ejection port, the trigger mechanism, the cutoff latch, and a stock relieved under the ejection port. Production of these rifles began in December 1918 and continued until March, 1920. 97,520 Mark I rifles were made, with serial numbers running from 933045 to 1186358. Most were finished in black Parkerizing, which had become the military standard.

World War I ended before any of the devices could be used in the war. A less hurried and more critical examination of the scheme revealed that the round was indeed quite underpowered, the equipment and ammo was heavy, and the potential for loss of the device and/or the bolt in the heat of battle was high. Some were actually used for gallery rifle practice and consideration was given to keeping them in reserve for riot control, but in April, 1931, an order was given to destroy all the devices and their accoutrements. Most were completely ruined in bonfires and then deep-sixed. A very few were stolen or salvaged to become incredibly expensive collector items today. Estimates vary on the number of surviving examples from a few dozen to as many as 100. The scabbards are even scarcer. The bolt and magazine pouches occasionally surface, but are fairly rare. A few “Mark II” devices, perhaps less than six, for the Model 1917 “Enfield” rifle are known. The Mark I rifles were almost all re-converted to standard ’03 specifications, and only a small number now remain in original device-ready condition. I’m fortunate enough to own one of these which left Springfield Armory in November of 1919. Today, a lot of people wonder about the hole in the side of the receiver when they encounter one, and the story behind that hole is still not widely known.

The Pedersen device was innovative, but became a dead end in firearms history. The devices and the rifles that used them are now very desirable classics. Few can afford one of the devices when and if one rarely becomes available on the collector market. The Mark I rifles can still be found here and there in varying conditions of originality. While not cheap, they’re considerably less expensive then the few remaining devices. There is a lot of history behind them.

(c) 2012 JLM

A pic of John D. Pedersen:



Some shots of the device and its ammo and accoutrements:







My own Mark I Springfield rifle:





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Last edited by PALADIN85020; 11-03-2012 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 09:39 PM
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Thank you for the history lesson. I've never heard of these before.
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Old 11-02-2012, 10:31 PM
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Two things to add.....
1. The Pedersen round was pretty much copied by the French and became the 7.65 French Long and used in the French MAS, MAB pistols and several varieties of French sub-machine guns. (I've always wondered if there were large stores of .30 Pedersen left in France at the end of WW1 and this is what led to its being copied.)

2. I'm also amazed that there hasn't been copies made of the device for the "collector" market. There would also have to be some replacement trigger groups and magazine cut-off levers made as many of these were changed out in the Mk I's when they were rebuilt.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:06 PM
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As usual Paladin, a interesting and informative post. I would die to see your collection.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:15 PM
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Spemwhere, possibly in a Gun Digest, I've seen a listing of all the known Pederson Devices. There were 50 of them, including a couple that had been in a fire. I can't remember where I saw this, can anyone help?

There was at least one made for the Moisin-Nagant rifle.

France copied the 30 Pederson round as the 7.675mm Long. It was used in the Mles 1935A and 1935S pistols and the MAC(?) 38 SMG. It took a while for France to get into production of the cartridge and all the experimental work was done with 30 Pederson rounds purchased from Remington.

There are several Pederson Devices on display, including two cutaways, one at West Point, the other at Springfield. Magazine pouches aren't too scarce, but all the rest is very expensive. In the 1980s, one of the gun parts companies had a special on modified triggers and cutoffs. I got one of each and finally gave them to a friend who collected Springfields; probbly the closest etiher of us will get to owning a Pederson Device, still I wish I had them now.

Has anyone ever seen a manual on the Pederson Device?

Some very poor photos of the Pedersons at West Point and Springfield.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg L1000837.jpg (71.8 KB, 71 views)
File Type: jpg L1000841.jpg (49.8 KB, 75 views)

Last edited by Cyrano; 11-02-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 11-02-2012, 11:37 PM
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I can't state which one, but an older edition of the Gun Digest contained a comprehensive article about the Pedersen Device, and as I remember, there were at least some prototypes made up for use with the M1917 Enfield and the Russian Moisin-Nagant, in addition to the M1903 Springfield. Local lore here (San Antonio) has it that a great many of the Pedersen Devices were encased in concrete used for sidewalks or paving on the grounds of the San Antonio Arsenal. The Arsenal buildings and grounds still exist, but is now the headquarters of the H-E-B supermarket store chain, which is just south of downtown San Antonio. Is there any truth to the story? I have no idea.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:00 AM
2152hq 2152hq is offline
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That Pederson Device made for the Moisin Nagant rifle was part of a Guns Digest article "The Secret Pistol of World War 1".
The author had all 3 devices, one each for the 03, 1917 and M/N.

He explains the differences between them and the mods done to the rifles to accept them. From what I gathered, the 03 and 17 mags were the same. The M/N a completely different set up and mag inserted from the high left.
No ejection port needed, just a slight relief cut to the receiver wall for the mag to clear.
He test fires the M/N with the device for the article.
I got the idea the 1917 and M/N Pederson Devices he had were one-of designers original patent models.

Interesting article.
1968 Guns Digest, page 220
It has a list of 20 (at the time) known devices and their location(s) & conditions .

I've only ever seen one. At a Syracuse NY gun show in the 1980's. For sale along with a MkI '03 it was displayed in.
I don't remember much about it other than what it was and the crowd around the display was 10 deep most of the time.

Last edited by 2152hq; 11-03-2012 at 12:05 AM. Reason: add
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:14 AM
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Thanks for the post and all of the pictures. So due to Mr. Peterson we had the first "Assault Weapon"!! I wonder why the cartridge was never used in any other US firearm? I had posted a while back about the French Army soldiers here on Bagram are still carrying the MAB 1935.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:20 AM
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The last one I've seen is at the Kentucky Military History Museum in Frankfort KY. If you ever get a chance to go there try to get a tour of their automatic weapons collection. It is really impressive!!

Here's a link to the museum. select "Curators Corner" and then "Weapons" for a short preview of the collection..
Kentucky Military Treasures
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:10 AM
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I visited the Springfield Armory, now a National Park Historic Site, a couple of years ago. So sometimes I like to play "stump the ranger" so when the perky young park ranger lady said "do you have any questions?" I said "yes, do you have a Pedersen Device on display?". She didn't hesitate and lead me directly to a display cabinet specific to the Pedersen Device and its history. If you're ever in the area, the Armory is a very nice experience.
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:27 AM
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Thank you for sharing this story, I've never heard this before.
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:45 AM
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By the way, ammunition for the PD is not that rare. Full boxes of it still circulate in cartridge collector circles, and I have seen more than a few of them. Individual rounds will sell for a couple of dollars. There must have been a considerable amount of ammunition made, but most was probably destroyed when the PDs were recalled, as they couldn't be used in anything else in the US arsenal.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:57 PM
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I don't understand why the devices were rounded up and destroyed.
Anyone got a reason for that?
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:17 PM
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Simply because they were of no further use to the Army and no other market, civilian or military, for them existed. I don't understand why they weren't just sold for scrap metal, but apparently they were not. For some of their existence the PD was considered a "Secret Weapon" (at least during WWI), so maybe that had something to do with it.
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Old 11-03-2012, 01:41 PM
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John, thank you for the, as usual, great and informative article. Because of my interest in 03, 03-A3, etc. I knew of the Pedersen Device but did not know all this history behind it.

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Old 11-03-2012, 02:22 PM
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Seems like a good place to inquire, any one have a barrel for a MK 1, 1920's date ?? I have need of a replacement , as Bubba took a saw to the one I have, cut it back to the wood....
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:59 PM
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Thanks for another history lesson. I'd heard of the device,
and that it was supposed to make an '03 a semi-auto.
Never heard any actual details before. Impressive!
TACC1
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Old 08-19-2013, 09:58 PM
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Default 1917 Mark II trigger

Awhile back, I ran across a trigger that looked all the world like a Mark 1 trigger but on a 1917 sear. I couldn't resist and picked it up. A little research and I found it was a Mark II trigger. The person I got it from at one time had both Pederson devices and several of the special parts, magazines etc. That was many, many years ago and this was the last of his "stuff". I have no idea what I'll do with it but thought I'd throw it out here. If anyone has any idea's, suggestions or knows someone that is knowledgeable in this area, I'd be grateful.

Mark II Trigger Slideshow by Supercub99 | Photobucket
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:55 PM
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Fascinating stuff, John.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:56 PM
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Very very cool read.... what a neat device..... I wonder how the M/N version did with the "all over" bores on those rifles..... some of the loose ones must have been really really loose for that 308 bullet...

Last edited by Autococker07; 08-19-2013 at 10:56 PM. Reason: cause I cannot spell my way out of a wet paper bag with scissors
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:04 PM
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An excellent article on a Great Idea-That Probably Wouldn't Have Worked.
I read-in Hatcher,perhaps-that when our forces occupied Germany in 1945 they found a Pedersen Device in an ordnance collection with a tag indicating it had been acquired in 1919 or so.
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACP230 View Post
I don't understand why the devices were rounded up and destroyed.
Anyone got a reason for that?
Somebody must have known at the time that trench warfare was going out of vogue. I questioned also what they would have done had they gotten involved in another trench war 5 years later??
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Old 08-19-2013, 11:13 PM
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Great article on the 'Great War'. Thanks for the history lesson.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:19 AM
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Thanks for the story.
Lil off topic but our local American Legion has seven Mk1's that we use for honor guard duty. 2 have been re-barreled (1940's date) but the rest appear to have original barrels, at least from their dates (late teens). Of course we don't have any PD's.
On a side note; we thought about trading the 03's in for M1's but since our post is named after 2 local WW1 vets that were KIA in France, we thought it only fitting to keep the 03's.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:40 AM
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I ran across one of the 1919 RIA pouches a few days ago. Any idea what it's worth?
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack the toad View Post
Thanks for the story.
Lil off topic but our local American Legion has seven Mk1's that we use for honor guard duty. 2 have been re-barreled (1940's date) but the rest appear to have original barrels, at least from their dates (late teens). Of course we don't have any PD's.
On a side note; we thought about trading the 03's in for M1's but since our post is named after 2 local WW1 vets that were KIA in France, we thought it only fitting to keep the 03's.
I had an original Mark 1 that I suspect did honorable duty in an honor guard. Unfortunately you could drop a bullet 10'' down the throat before it stopped. It key holed at 50 yards so was un-shootable. It must have had a lot of blanks fired in it over the years it was used.

I read someplace that there was a request by the honor guard groups for rifles and Springfield pulled several thousand out of storage and sent them. The rest were stripped of the Mark 1 parts and returned to regular service rifle status. I still have a 40's re-barreled Mark 1 that appears to have never been re-issued. I suspect there are a lot of people with Mark 1's holding their breath and hoping someone will come out with a Pederson type device. It would be fun!

Kurt
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:57 AM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamabiker View Post
Thank you for the history lesson. I've never heard of these before.
You're an Alabama fan. There's lots of things you ain't never heard of. I heard tell they're going to install indoor plumbling at Bryant-Denny this year.

Seriously, the Tide is gonna roll again this year.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACP230 View Post
I don't understand why the devices were rounded up and destroyed.
Anyone got a reason for that?
Instant collectable. (slight sarcasm no insult intended)
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:20 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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You expect the government to have any business sense?
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