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11-12-2012, 09:34 PM
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I was stationed seven miles from an airbase in northern Thailand. Would you believe the F4's would sometimes wake me up at 4 am while still on the runway? They were headed to N Viet Nam and I could only wish them well.
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11-12-2012, 10:10 PM
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A good plane, but I recall a former Phantom pilot telling me that he found the F-15 Eagle to be far more agile. That counts a lot in a dogfight with a manueverable (sp?) Combloc fighter.
BTW, Prince Charles was a Phantom pilot after commanding a destroyer. If you see him in Naval uniform, look for the aviator wings on his sleeve.
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11-12-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bdvet
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Sir, as I understand it, a lot of old F4 jocks are fond of saying, "If you're out of Phantoms, you're out of Phighters!"
Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.
Ron H.
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11-12-2012, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star
A good plane, but I recall a former Phantom pilot telling me that he found the F-15 Eagle to be far more agile. That counts a lot in a dogfight with a manueverable (sp?) Combloc fighter.
BTW, Prince Charles was a Phantom pilot after commanding a destroyer. If you see him in Naval uniform, look for the aviator wings on his sleeve.
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A good pilot and the Phantoms ability to climb made up the difference. Go check the kill rate on the f4 vs the Migs. You might also want to check the performance of the 53 vette against the new ones.
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11-12-2012, 10:33 PM
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The F-4D was a formidable fighter/bomber in 'Nam. The Migs could out-turn it but they couldn't outrun it up down or straight ahead.
It's old today, no doubt. So am I.
Leave the knife fights and gunning to the young un's.
Hand Salute!
Hobie
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11-12-2012, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonJ
A good pilot and the Phantoms ability to climb made up the difference. Go check the kill rate on the f4 vs the Migs. You might also want to check the performance of the 53 vette against the new ones.
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I understand that Allied and Israeli pilots were usually better than the enemy, but some Phantoms were lost tp enemy fighters. As far as I know, no F-15's have been lost.
But I meant no disrespect to the F-4 or those who flew them. Just saying that the Eagle is a better, later design. The pilot who flew both said that F-4 was slower and harder to turn.
I'll check the climb rate of the F-4 against that of the MiG-21.
Last edited by Texas Star; 11-12-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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11-12-2012, 10:46 PM
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11-12-2012, 10:48 PM
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I got to ride in the front seat once. We were a radar target for an F-18. Up the Atlantic coast and back to the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. When the pilot slowed down he said "get ready...this aint gonna feel to good", and it didn't. I thought I was going right thru the windshield. The harness actually hurt my shoulders. The Blue Angels haven't been the same since they quit flyin' the F-4.
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11-12-2012, 10:59 PM
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The life of an F-4 aircraft mechanic was another story. My Memories were 10 months of a hydraulic leak and fuel leak flying in formation. The beast I had in Thailand could never be fixed, out of nine scheduled missions it had 8 ground aborts and one TOTAL loss of hydraulic power/hydraulic systems when it did get off the ground. Pilot was the squadron commander.
Oooooh those were the days. Single, E-5, and northern Thailand. Just call me Short because I will be a civilian after I leave here.
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11-13-2012, 12:08 AM
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My Uncle
was an Annapolis grad and had several tours off Viet Nam. I think he called the F4 a "flying refrigerator door". He also flew A4's and A6's and I think F8's. I got the idea he liked the attack planes better. He's been gone 21 years now and I still think fondly of him.
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11-13-2012, 12:13 AM
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The Loss to Kill Ratio between F-4's and MiG-17's & 21's improved dramatically after they added "the gun". Before that, reliance solely upon AIM's and Sparrows only gave the Phantom half it's potential.
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11-13-2012, 12:22 AM
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America's proof to the world that, given big enough engines, even a brick will fly. But, dang, what a brick. Only aircraft I've ever seen that just looked bad *** sitting still on the deck.
CW
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11-13-2012, 12:52 AM
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I was in the Army, but was working with USAF Air Defense Command. The F106 pilots sure loved it when they transitioned to the Phantom, not only was the performance a lot better but the radar was several leaps ahead of the 106's. The Air Force would have had it several years before except for the NIH factor.
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11-13-2012, 12:55 AM
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She did look bad, especially after a run over NVN and back. Saw many a plane come back in with holes that woulda downed any other bird. Saw 'em come back in sans the canopy and still flying. She took a licking and kept on ticking...........
Same could be said for the old Goonie...C-47, whether it be EC-47, AC-47 or another configuration. She was a war-horse, just like the F-4 Phantoms.
The ground-pounders liked 'em, that's for sure. We'd help put out a call for fast-movers and in would come the F-4's............she saved many a youngman's tail in the SE Asia Games.
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11-13-2012, 01:40 AM
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Paul Sprey of "Fighter Mafia" fame was always a critic of the type. Paraphrasing his thoughts on TV:
"Every bent up wing and drooping tail on that thing is an aerodynamic Band Aid. That plane is a turkey."
Back in England I lived in an area where they allowed low-level dogfight practice and the F-4s got owned by Tornados and especially Harriers. Even the Jaguars, another tricky handling airplane, gave them grief when in the weeds.
Engineer1911. I have an F-4 book where it is said that many a Vietnam theatre mechanic would have loved five minutes in a locked room with the clown that put the radio under the RIO's ejector seat. Due to the climate the radios failed and the seat had to come out with all that added "fun".
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11-13-2012, 02:01 AM
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Worked a ton of F-4s in MCAS Yuma for three and a half years as an air traffic controller.
Every morning at a few mimutes to 6:00 A.M. a pair of Phantoms taxied to 21R and took off at exactly 06:00 A.M. Exactly. We opened the tower at that time and as we climbed the catwalk they would be holding short of the runway, waiting for us.
When the launched it was full afterburner, seven days a week. The entire city of Yuma could hear them and complained but they were flying the border as a defense measure so the complaints were ignored.
I expect it was akin to the F4F Grumman Wildcat, outclassed by almost anything the Japanes had but able to defeat them by smarter flying tactics.
We too heard that the Harriers could outfight an F4 at the lower altitudes.
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11-13-2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightshooter2
America's proof to the world that, given big enough engines, even a brick will fly. But, dang, what a brick. Only aircraft I've ever seen that just looked bad *** sitting still on the deck.
CW
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Throughout aviation history, there are some airplanes that just look like fighters...if you didn't know a thing about aviation, you would understand what they're built for just by looking at them.
In my mind, the Phantom leads that list, followed closely by the P-51 Mustang, the F-86 Sabre, and the F-15 Eagle.
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11-13-2012, 02:52 AM
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One of the best books I have ever read on air combat is "Once A Fighter Pilot" by Jerry Cook. It's a no-nonsense, unvarnished account of his 200+ missions in Vietnam flying Phantoms. I actually wrote a review of it on Amazon, and I can recommend it without qualification to anyone interested the the F-4 and its combat history...
Once A Fighter Pilot: Jerry Cook: 0639785336921: Amazon.com: Books
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11-13-2012, 04:19 AM
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I was TDY to Incirlik AB in Turkey in November of 1971. there was F-4's flying most of the time and the transient barracks were steel quansot huts and that is not a good combination. those huts really rattled
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11-13-2012, 05:47 AM
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According to the wisdom of the day the Phantom II was selected when the MD design proposal team went to the Pentagon with their proposal and a sleek and beautiful model of the fighter. As they arrived there was a confusion as they exited the elevator and the beautiful model was dropped, kicked and caught in the elevator door. The chief bean counter, near to tears, held the disaster in his hands. At that moment a Four-star Admiral walked up, pointed at the broken twisted model and said, "That's what we need! Original thinking!" The rest is a 5000 aircraft plus history.
Geoff
Who notes the usual military euphemisms for "once upon a time."
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11-13-2012, 08:42 AM
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Kinda off topic, didn't one of the car mags do a "road test" on the
F=4. "Road & Track" I think, early 70's.
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11-13-2012, 08:42 AM
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11-13-2012, 09:27 AM
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I was with VMFA 334 in 1969 and 1970. We had the F-4J aircraft. My squadron suffered 4 combat losses, all from ground fire. The Phantom was and still is my favorite aircraft. It just looks good and the J model could handle 16000 pounds of external stores.
Semper Fi Marine Aviation
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11-13-2012, 11:10 AM
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I flew the RF-4C through 1992 when it was finally retired. It was a good aircraft, generally reliable, used a LOT of gas down low, even with the new smokeless engines. The ring-laser gyros in the last navigation system were magnificent, and we finally got the AIM9 about a year before retirement (we were paid to take pictures, not dogfight!). With all that said, the F-15E is a much better aircraft (equal comparison - two seat, two engine, multi-role fighters).
One note, the British variant of the F4 had the Rolls Royce engines, not the GE J79.
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11-13-2012, 11:18 AM
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I remember staying in a motel close to Lambert in about 1967 and hearing F4s from McDonnell-Douglas launching w/full AB at sunup. The first time it happened I thought they were coming through the roof. 2 years later I was watching them (and the F-8s) fly over the shooting range and firefighting grounds at RTC San Diego.
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11-13-2012, 12:37 PM
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Over 5000 Phamtom's of various types were made - More than ANY other combat aircraft since WWII half went to the USAF and about 27% went to teh US navy anmd Marines. Source : "McDonnel Douglas - A Tale of Two giants" by Bill Yenne
That kind of production says a lot about how good an aircraft it was. It may have leaked and been hard on the maintainence people; it may have been less agile; but it was a GREAT plane anf many are still flying.
I may be a little predjudiced though being an ex McDonnell Douglas Employee ( Douglas Aircraft side - I hald many of the parts on the first C-17's in my hands as a Quality Engineer there)
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11-13-2012, 02:52 PM
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Stationed at a base in England for two years, split mission: F4 camera planes & nuclear bomb storage.
Guarded a lot of both.
The afterburner comment brings back memories.
There was a tradition that pilots retiring from that base took up a stripped F4 (no wing tanks) for their last flight.
Full burner & damn near straight up.
Denis
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11-13-2012, 02:52 PM
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I would like thank those who flew the F-4.
They saved many lives in Vietnam. I may have been one of those in the Central Highlands one Black Night during the 1968 Tet Offense.
I don't care how they flew. They flew good enough for me.
R.
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11-13-2012, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1bdvet
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Now THAT is flying!!!
No mamby-pamby fly by wire like the FA-18, buh!
That was a real workout in those F4's man, thanks for sharing.
I worked on F4S's in the Marines at MCAS Beaufort, SC before we gave them up for FA-18's
Yes the J79 had accessories all over the dang thing needing an engine drop to do easy maintenance, but by golly that smoky, smelly, leaky, stinky beast was one of a kind and we loved her!! I think there is still some soot under my left index finger's nail from all the fasteners I've taken in and out of that thing's perpetually oily underside!
The FA-18 to us was like a Honda; cute and reliable.
The transition was like going from a 1950's Harley-Davidson XLCH Sportster (THE original hairy-chested superbike) to a 70's Honda CB 400.
PS
Remember: it's not noise, it's the sound of FREEDOM baby!
Last edited by dcxplant; 11-13-2012 at 03:38 PM.
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11-13-2012, 04:47 PM
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The first AFB I was stationed on had F-4's on it. I always thought and still do that they looked wicked just sitting still. As for noise, they couldn't hold a candle to a B-52 running up it's engines during a test. Our barracks were a couple of miles from the flight line and the windows would rattle.
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11-13-2012, 04:58 PM
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Guarded the Buffs, too.
They certainly could be loud.
Denis
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11-13-2012, 05:01 PM
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I remember an instructor in "A" school telling us the F4, like the bumblebee, aerodynamically couldn't fly. The thrust from those powerful engines was the key.
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11-13-2012, 05:24 PM
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Ah, a classy fighter. But, having been assigned to SAC, bombers rule for me.
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11-13-2012, 05:42 PM
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Member of SAC for 19 years,
and the two birds I liked pass gas to the most were the B-58, and the F-4.
Both had very fine pilots, and both could pull into refueling position with little guidance from the boomer. Very stable while getting their gas. Passed gas to lots of F-4s on their way to and from targets.
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11-13-2012, 06:25 PM
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11-13-2012, 07:17 PM
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The Phantom was never intended to be a 'dogfighter'. It was designed to be an 'interceptor' with long range missles. Big powerful engines and flat out , straight-away speed. Handling wasn't even in the equation. Early versions didn't even have a gun.
It's replacements , the F-14 Tomcat and F-15 Eagle were to be dogfighters from the get-go.
We had a bunch of F-4s when I was in Aviation Ordnance "A" school , to learn loading bombs (MER's & TER's) , missles , gun & rocket pods , etc.
Always liked these pics.
Actually , my favorite fighter was the spiffy little F-5 Tiger. They could turn circles around and inside any MiG.
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11-13-2012, 07:42 PM
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something for the Phantom Phixers and Phlyers
Semper Fi
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11-13-2012, 07:49 PM
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I worked SAC & TAC, the 52s were big ungainly critters, the Phantoms I always thought were pretty sharp.
Ours in England only had cameras & flashbulbs, no armament. Still looked mean.
Denis
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11-13-2012, 07:59 PM
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Thanks RhinoDave,
long time ago, I retired in 70, but the pictures are great. I have some somewhere, but don't know where.
A few years ago I was invited on a community flight in a KC 135. Could have been a bird that my crew picked up at Boeing, who knows? New Fan engines, gone are the J 57s, no sextant or stand, but still a fine bird. Could well be on it's third generation of crew members.
Thanks for your post, George
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11-13-2012, 08:05 PM
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Spent a lotta time walking around KCs, too.
And the occasional EC-135.
Ancient history.
Denis
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11-13-2012, 08:23 PM
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We had RF4Cs when I was stationed at Bergstrom AFB in Austin, TX. We called them "Texas Lawn Darts" - they were pretty old then and I worked two crashes in the two or three years I was there.
I loved those birds, though. If you've ever had a low fly-over by a flight of F4s it is something you never forget.
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11-14-2012, 02:54 AM
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8TFW, Ubon, Thailand--"World's Largest Distributor Of MiG Parts".
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11-14-2012, 01:05 PM
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As a zoomie for most of my formative years, she's one of my favorite birds. Just something about all those angles I guess. I have a framed NoDak Air Guard Centennial Phantom print on my wall right now that I look at everyday while on my computer, and I've got another print my dad gave me a long time ago (F-4C) that I need to get framed.
I was stationed at Incirlik CDI, Turkey for 15 months in the 70's, and every morning and evening 2 F-4's would roll to the end of the active, hit those burners, and we're off. They used to rotate out of Spain every (60?) days because the story we always heard was that anything that stayed in Turkey for more than 60 days became the property of Turkey.
I used to take photos of every Phantom I encountered just cause. She may have not been perfect, but she earned her due in Vietnam and during the Cold War. I believe that there are few foreign Air Forces that still fly it. Carry on old girl...
Last edited by bobcat; 11-14-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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11-14-2012, 01:16 PM
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A Marine friend (F4 Wizzo) summed it up for me:
"You can make a brick fly if you put big enough engines on it."
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I was in Tech School in 1978 at Lowry AFB, Denver, CO. I was training to work the Avionics system (MA-1) on the F-106A/B Delta Dart, and our class rooms were right next to the F-4 guys. Whenever we were on break, everyone would stand around and insult each other's plane.
I loved the old F-106. It was very technologically advanced for the day, and a very smart looking plane. I always thought the F-4 was kinda ugly...but I have to admit, it looked kind of mean and sinister as well. While I believe the F-106 was the better interceptor, as that was really its only role ,the F-4 was obviously much more multi-role...it had better missiles, could carry bombs and various "pods" (rockets, guns, ECM, etc.). But, for intercepting squadrons of bombers...the F-106 had the speed (the F-106 still holds the official record as the fastest single engine jet, setting the world speed record on 15 December 1959, claiming a new speed of 1,525.95 mph {Mach 2.31} at an altitude of 40,000 ft), was difficult to jam (much more so than the F-4s, at least according to the B-52 crews who had flown against all kinds of fighters) and it carried a nuclear rocket, meant to down entire formations of bombers with one shot.
I also remember the noise of the B-52s when I was stationed in Upstate NY. The old mobile home I was living in was situated near the end of the runway, and when I was working nights, and trying to sleep during the day, those "BUFFs" would rattle me out of my bed several times a day. It was even worse in the winter, when the B-52s (as well as the KC-135s) would use water injection, making them even louder.
Ahhh...the good old days! I do miss the "sound of freedom".
Tim
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11-14-2012, 08:19 PM
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My good friend and fraternity brother Al "Peaches" Bennett flew F4s for two tours in Vietnam. He told me he mostly did ground attack missions with them. One interesting story was he had to fly a training mission with Chuck Yeager when he was in the reserves. He prepped the plane, loaded all the data into the computers (did they have them?), and Yeager came out and didn't say a work and jumped into the plane and flew the bombing training mission, flawlessly Al added. They landed and Yeager got out and never acknowledged Al was even there.
Sadly Al died two years ago in an auto accident.
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11-14-2012, 09:01 PM
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Some are now QF-4 drones at Tyndall AFB.
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11-14-2012, 09:25 PM
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I worked on the flight line while in the AF as a mechanic and always loved the sounds of all types taking off. I loved the looks of the B-47 bomber and the B-52 taking off and landing. I also saw some B-36s landing. Nothing else sounded like they did. I grew to love all of them.
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11-14-2012, 11:30 PM
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