Just finished rewatching The Outlaw Josey Wales. One of Clint's best movies, but two problems:

One, Eastwood claims this is an anti-war film yet he winds up killing a couple of dozen "bad guys."

Two, I believe he used as many as five 1847 Walker Colt Dragoon revolvers, each containing six .44-caliber ball shots, stuck in his gunbelt and never once did they misfire. However, according to historians the Colt Walker had numerous flaws including ruptured cylinders after firing and many of the original 1,000 were returned for repair especially when using 60-grain loads as opposed to 50-grain as recommended by Colt. Sure looked like Josey was shooting hot loads. Some of these guns were notorious for blowing up.

I suppose one must overlook such technicalities and just sit back and enjoy one of the better Westerns on the screen. Johnny Carson called it the "best Western of all time."

Thoughts appreciated.

I think that to enjoy most of Hollywood's fare, there always has to be some degree of "suspension of disbelief."

In this case (Josey Wales) I am more than happy to do it!

PICKY PICKY PICKY



Ted

Those are my thoughts.
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

Best westerns:
Josey Wales
Silverado
Quigley Down Under

Some movies are so technically incorrect to enjoy, but these are not...
they have a couple of minor flaws, but...

Good point. The fact is that every movie has goofs of one sort or another. The ones that are especially annoying are anachronisms or unexplained plot holes. I sometimes watch more for mistakes and that detracts from enjoyment.

I wasn't aware it was a documentary.

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John 3:16 .

I wasn't aware it was "anti-war".

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I always take precautions

That's what Clint said.

I'm certainly no cowboy movie expert, but I thought Appaloosa was very authentic.

Not taking anything away from all of Clint's great movies.

I must not be payin close enough attention...Or, all that must be happen on the big screen

When they's sizes it down to fit my ol B&W tv,

I can't see what's going on...On the sides out thar!


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

In the original script, Josey mentioned that these revolvers were notorious for ruptured cylinders.

From "The Outlaw Josey Whales" (First Draft)

Josey: I'm going to kill you...if my gun doesn't malfunction.
Bad guy: Why would it?
Josey: I have 60 grains of powder in this...it might rupture the cylinder.
Bad guy: That would be good for me though.
Josey: I guess so.

BANG! Bad guy hits the floor.

Josey: Looks like it didn't rupture afterall.

Jose spits some tabacco on the bad guy and walks off.



But the producers felt that this kind of technical information might not appeal to the average movie goer not so knowledgeable of 19th century firearms, so they took out that scene and put in a bar fight.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I'll bet that's the scene you were in that got cut, Sip !

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Qui plantavit curabit

I prefer bar fights over knowledgeable history facts any day.

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Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

Everyone is different, but I can't see how this film could be viewed in its overall prospective as anything but anti-war.

Fixted.....

No buts about it. Josey Wales remains for me one of the most watchable and rewatchable Westerns.

Outlaw Josey Whales was written as an anti-war movie,and,
Silverado was written as a Warner Brother cartoon.

One of my favorites for sure! And I love Westerns. I consider the river crossing sequence starting with Grandma on the porch and the meeting of the Cherokee- Chief George to be two of the finest things ever filmed. Way better than most entire movies.
Best Western ever made? I love Yellow Ribbon so much it's impossible for me not to name it as No1.
Best Cowboy Movie? I vote for Will Penny.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I am a huge cowboy movie junkie, and as far as Clint is concerned I think his movie Unforgiven rates pretty high with me. Other westerns I would rate highly: Open Range, Silverado, The Quick and the Dead.......

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Rodger-retired LEO

"..he's an easy man to follow. He leaves dead people whereever he goes..."

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But then, what do I know?

I had the same problem with "Godzilla". Turns out, it wasn't really a monster after all. It was some guy in a monster costume. Man, how phony can you get?

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Why, I aughta.....

Look how far we've, or they've, come. Remember movies like Rio Lobo or TV show like Wagon Train where guys carried those butchered Colt single actions that supposedly looked like percussion Remingtons because it was set in the 1860's? One of my all time favorite TV character, Monolito Montoya carried a nickel one. But we'll let him slide on this goof.
Someone called Silverado a Warner Bros. cartoon. It was. And it was meant to be. It seems kind of corny now but I just love watching it still. Here's a close up of those guns used in old westerns set in the 1860's. It's funny because if they think regular Colts would look wrong, didn't they think the same people who would notice would also notice these modified ones?

I can suspend disbelief if the characters/story are strong enough. The older I get, the more I like Westerns. When I was a kid, I couldn't understand why my dad liked them so much. Now that I'm north of 50, I get it.

Since some favorites have been tossed around in this thread, I'll vote for "Ride the High Country"; Joel Macrea and Randolph Scott at their best.

There was a great one in Treasure of the Sierra Madre although it was an obvious stunt double in for Pat McCormick.

Favorite lines from Josey Wales:

Josey Wales: Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?

Jamie: I wish we had time to bury them fellas.
Josey Wales: To hell with them fellas. Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms.

Senator: The war's over. Our side won the war. Now we must busy ourselves winning the peace. And Fletcher, there's an old saying: To the victors belong the spoils.
Fletcher: There's another old saying, Senator: Don't p--s down my back and tell me it's raining.

Bounty hunter #1: You're wanted, Wales.
Josey Wales: Reckon I'm right popular. You a bounty hunter?
Bounty hunter #1: A man's got to do something for a living these days.
Josey Wales: Dyin' ain't much of a living, boy.

For those that don't know me from other gun forums, I'm probably the single-most nitpicky gun error guy on the internet. On the other hand, I do agree that you have to suspend disbelief in certain circumstances. For example, of course we know the shots are impossible in, say, Quigley Down Under. Even Billy Dixon said he more or less accidentally hit his target at that distance with a BPCR! Yet, Tom Selleck's character is basically shown to have near-super-human aiming abilities. There aren't too many other glaring errors (Crazy Cora reloading the cap and ball revolver on-screen was a high point), so there are certain things you just HAVE to overlook.

Other times, such as with Zulu, especially (Even if the only two characters they truly got correct were Surgeon Reynolds and John Fielding, a.k.a. Pvt. 412 John Williams [he really DID enlist under a false name]), you may have access to only a limited number of correct weapons, and no matter how hard you try and get mileage out of them, there will always be mistakes. Yes, the Martini-Henry Mk. II's get the majority of screen-time, but it's also obvious a few guys on the firing line have Mk. III's (you can tell thanks to looking at the bottom of the forend) and the extras off in the distance, if you look carefully, have Lee-Metford MLM's.

The Zulus with Martini-Henrys is really the only severe error, although it actually stems from two sources you would think would be reliable: Lt. J.R.M. Chard's after-action report and Lt. Colonel Frank Bourne's (he was a Colour Sergeant at the time) recollections. The Zulus did indeed pick up the Martini-Henrys and ammo the Brits dropped...but they didn't use them until the later Battle of Khambula. They also did have guns...but they were muzzleloaders, mostly percussion-lock trade guns. It's believed Chard assumed the guns firing at him were Martini-Henrys thanks to the handful of Rorke's Drift survivors reporting the Zulus were picking up arms and ammunition from the British dead. As for Bourne, his interview came years after the fact, and he DID continue to serve in the Zulu War past the Battle of Rorke's Drift. He undoubtedly DID face the Isandhlwana battlefield pickups, but just not at Rorke's Drift.

One thing cited as an error that actually wasn't was the British wearing dress uniforms during the battle. It was confirmed THE NEXT DAY by Trooper Henry Lugg of the Natal Mounted Police and about six or seven years later by then-Sergeant Henry Hook, VC (in actuality a model soldier; he was pulling mess duty in the hospital), who openly speculated if it was the last time the British Army went into battle with their dress uniforms on (it probably was).

In this great western Warren Oates shoot's a Colt Sheriff's Model and I think he's also the guy shooting a Remington Model 8 autoloader. And during the final shootout nobody "fast draws". They have their guns in their hands already and aim to shoot. That was a good'un.

Guilty!
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

Joe,
Thanks for the thread; discussing Josey Wales is always
fun, Interesting, too. Lots of stuff I never knew in Josey and
in the others brought up as well.
TACC1

Nothing wrong with being anti-war....lots of good arguments for peace. It's siding with the enemy that's wrong.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

Almost every film is made for 'entertainment'; and that's the only reason I bother to see them. They take all kinds of 'liberties' with facts etc. that make them more enjoyable to watch. I just watch, get entertained and don't worry about factual mistakes or liberties that may have been taken to allow the movie to be more watchable.

Sometimes the "back story" of a movie is very interesting. I learned, for example, that Clint killed only one Indian in all the Westerns he starred in, but not sure which. Anyone know?

One of , if not my all-time favorite movie!

There's also some cartridge conversions of percussion pistols shown throughout the movie. Don't know if they'd have been available that soon after the end of the war. Don't know if many Walkers survived to the Civil War. They saw hard use with the US Mounted Dragoons in Florida and Texas. Of the 1100 originally made , only about 100 are known to exist today.


Walker Colts were not meant to be carried on the belt , but in pommel holsters on the saddle. They were issued in pairs. The Confederate Raiders , like the group OJW rode with were known to carry many loaded pistols. Haven't gone thru the whole movie in slo-mo but I'm betting he had other pistols/holsters on his saddle.

Wasn't that Gandhi?

Assuming one could find one, what would be the value?

Why Johnny Ringo, you look like someone just walked over your grave.



Not Clint, but a pretty good line!

Depends on condition , history , markings. the original 1000 went to the military and ser.no'd to units they were issued to. Few survive as they saw hard use. Many were probably lost in the swamps during Indian battles in Florida.

There are several civillian examples in excellent condition. The blue book Colt , An American Legand by RL Wilson shows some excellent Walkers.

The pair Colt made expressly for and presented to Capt Walker went for over $2 million at auction a few years back.

HOW IS IT ON STAINS?

I can live with that'
Here's another one I get a kick out of,
& one of my favorites* ....

.. Colt Walker 1847'

Mattie Ross (Kim Darby) inherits her father's civil war handgun when he dies, which is a Colt Walker 1847. Mattie uses it when she encounters Tom Chaney (Jeff Corey) and is knocked down by the recoil of the gun (which is a bit unrealistic) and manages to shoot him in the gut with it. He then manages to charge her and take the gun due to several misfires (which were Rooster's fault, as he had loaded it incorrectly while drunk, and also overloaded the chambers with powder which caused the tremendous recoil). The gun manages to fire once more in the hands of Mattie and grazes Chaney's head though the recoil knocks her into a snake pit. When Mattie first shows the gun to Rooster, he calls it a Colt's Dragoon but it is clearly too large and lacks a loading lever latch that the Dragoon models had. Also the Walker has no percussion nipples showing that it is firing cartridges.


"Why, by God, girl, that's a Colt's Dragoon! You're no bigger than a corn nubbin, what're you doing with all this pistol?" note no percussion nipples showing that its made to fire cartridges.



"It belonged to my father, he carried it bravely in the war, and I intend to kill Tom Chaney with it if the law fails to do so." "Well, this'll sure get the job done if you can find a fence post to rest it on while you take aim."


~ Joe

When I saw the subject line, I assumed the thread would be about Sondra Locke.

There are technical errors in a Clint Eastwood western????

Has anyone ever seen John Wayne reload his Colt SAA in a movie? Thirty-seven Indians are killed, never a reload, and his gun belt is still full. This just an oversight, not a technical error.

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S&WHF 366

Yeah, something scary about those eyes. In Josey Wales she was a helluva shot for a dumb blonde (no offense, gals), killing several redlegs with a long rifle.

That's true, Bob. But nothing compares with John McClane in Diehard artfully dodging thousands of rounds fired by several AK-47's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lNUyMle_iI

I believe its called kick back, relax, and enjoy the film. I feel sometimes people get so caught up in the details of things that they take the fun and enjoyment out of it. Lifes to short to pick the details out of a movie that was filmed in 1976.
Put more thought into how your going to pay off your house or any other debts you have. Or figure out how you will put your kids thru school(not pointing at the OP, this is for everyone).

Not only did they tend to not show them reloading the weapons in the westerns, but I've long wondered how exactly did they handle the women on those long, cross county, wagon train trips. I mean, I can't drive my family in an air conditioned car to DisneyWorld without stopping at every other rest area on the interstate. I don't mean to be offensive, but women just don't travel as well as they seem to portray them in the westerns.

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- Change it back -

Of course, there were exceptions in the Old West of tough gals such as Calamity Jane who went after Wild Bill Hickok's killer with a meat cleaver.

"By God, Dude, that'sa Colt's Dragoon!"

~ Joe

Sorry Joe' .. didn't mean to hijack your thread.
... But I just had to Shoot' Back.

~ Joe

Hey, I wouldn't have liked it if I didn't like it. Thanks for the laffs.

"Outlaw Josey Wales" is one of my favorite westerns. One of about 100 or so............

One of the most historically inaccurate westerns I have ever seen is "The Commancheros". Set in the mid to late 1840s with Colt Single Actions and Winchester M92s.

But I love the movie for its story line. And the memory of my Father taking my two older brothers fishing for the weekend so my Mom said: "Let's go see a movie."

We went to "Downtown" San Antonio to the Texas Theater and saw "The Commancheros".

I'm getting to the point that I watch westerns for the scenery, telling myself I would like to be aboard my horse riding the countryside.

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Have guns...will shoot'em.