This is not to detract from LEOs and armed guards that are already in place at schools. It’s just that there are so many small schools and the guns are so rarely needed that the cost of having personnel hang around with very little to do isn‘t justified. As an extreme example, there is still at least one public one room school with grades K thru 7 on an island in Washington.

I see guns in schools the same way I see life preservers on the state ferries. Coast Guard regulations require the ferries to have life preservers and require sailors be trained to deploy them. It is obviously absurd to pay extra sailors without other jobs to hang around the life preserves. Why shouldn’t schools be required to have a few guns as basic safety equipment and some school employees be required to have training to carry or at least be able to deploy those guns? Additional employees are not necessary. Educators who are proud of their advanced degrees certainly are intelligent enough to operate a simple gun. Existing employees just need to be forced to provide a safe place for the children they are responsible for.

We just need some portion of “the government” to serve the role of the Coast Guard in my example. It would have to be federal or liberal areas would remain unarmed. They’d have to be forced to comply by withholding all federal funds it they refused.

I’ll leave it for someone else to pick which school job classifications would be required to be armed and or trained. That hardly matters anyway because we all know this isn’t going to happen without conservatives up at the top of the pecking order.

What do think? Is this idea better than the NRA’s?

The presence of someone with a gun isn't much of a deterrent if the mid-set of the person carrying it isn't with the program. Forcing someone to qualify as armed security when they don't believe in it morally, politically, and without the backbone/mindset for it will never work.

You can a give rabbit a magnum, but he's still a rabbit. You cannot legislate rabbits into guard dogs.

__________________
Qui plantavit curabit

Well said Fred. Do you really want a teacher who is (not really
INTO the program) defending the whole school against an armed
nut case intent on doing harm.
I'd rather have a person whose sole responsibility it is to confront
the situations that may arise. Trained and well versed/practised
with his or her duty weapon. We can find the money to pay the
folks at the airports, we certainly should be able to fund people
to protect our children at schools.

Chuck

__________________
They hold no Quarter

The trouble with the air port security example is that states have only a few large commercial air ports but a whole lot of schools.

As far as mind set goes, in the Connecticut incident the principal and one other school employee lunged at the shooter is a desperate attempt to save children. I doubt they had the fighter mind set beforehand. Here in Washington we had the briefly infamous Tacoma Mall shooter stopped by a young store manager who didn’t have the right mind set. He didn’t fire, but the Tacoma Mall shooter panicked after seeing a gun muzzle. It was never a fair fight: the managers snub nose .38 vs. an AK based rifle. The manager is in a wheel chair for life, but no one else was hurt after he confronted the would be mass murderer.

Because the "public" in public education is predominantly left-leaning, and any requirement would need to clear every state's Department of Ed, individual district's school boards, and superintendents.

Wrong. During my time in the NYS public education system, I found that educators with advanced degrees were some of the dumbest people I'd ever encountered. Common sense was a sorely lacking commodity in my former district, and I cannot identify a single teacher out of 150+ who would know a gun barrel from a beer barrel.

Public schools are allocated $ by their home states. You'll never leverage a pro-gun policy into the school system by threatening to withhold funding. Do some research about NY's Governor, and check out his policies on public education and gun rights. This is the type of clueless politico who's in charge all over the country.

__________________
I'm with the banned ...

I like the NRA's plan whereby whether to arm or not would be left up to individual schools, their faculties and the parents. The NRA plan says that armed security is but one part of the equation, albeit an important one. I agree that there is no point in trying to force people to carry firearms who do not want to do so.

Most people do not want to carry concealed, as you can see from statistics that show that only about 5%, depending on the state, of the population chooses to do so. I would guess the proportion among teachers would be even smaller. Would probably increase, though, if parents made clear that they were not against it.

Or, go back to the armed parent or grandparent volunteers we talked of earlier...

I would be fine with having such school protectors take special training, beyond the state CCW license requirements. The media and most liberals have this idea that the police are uniquely qualified to use firearms because of their firearms training. Okay, train up teachers, school administrators, staff, and volunteers beyond the level that the police get. (Which typically is not that much anyway. Plus, personally, I like training.)

Easy, the custodian.

__________________
Buy American
Vote Responsibly

You boys are way over complicateing the issue and the plan.
Simply stated, let those who choose to want to carry a concealed weapon do so.
You would probably be suprised at the numbere that would.
It is a liberty to do so and those who choose to participate in this liberty should be allowed.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

THIS IS A BIG DISAGREEMENT FROM ME. DON"T READ IT IF YOUR FEELINGS ARE ON YOUR SLEEVE.
I am tired of folks who lump all educated people into a pile and demand that they are stupid and left wingers.
I don't claim that all who like guns are Bubba's--nor do I say that all who don't have degrees are stupid and lazy.
Let's get this discussion back on track and stop emotionalizing groups.
You can speak about one that you KNOW without lumping all into the discussion.
Soap Box is clear.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

PhD here, William.

But I do believe it is true that acadamia is dominated, overwhelmingly, by anti-gun sentiment. Yes, there are exceptions.

According to Ayoob, in Israel they train volunteers from school personnel, parents, and grandparents who then CC. This makes a lot of sense because they want to do it and it is not costly.

But this is not Israel or Switzerland, it is America.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

williamlayton,

The world is a changing place, more rapidly now than ever.

Imagine Henry Ford looking out and surveying all the Mosques in Dearborn, Michigan.

__________________
NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

My wife's sister acts as a "shadow" for this SPECIAL NEEDS kid in grade school. Really no more than a baby sitter for this kid of 10 she is paid $12 per hr...This kid is her ONLY responsibility too.
l think if the school can afford 12 bucks/hr for just ONE kid they could easily spend $20/hr for a guard to protect ALL

First, I did not intend to lump all educators into the dumb-as-a-box-o'-rocks leftists category. I simply acknowledge that in many, many locations there will likely not be someone who would want the training or the responsibility since it goes against their nature.

For my part, I would love to see at least mandatory compulsory basic firearms safety and familiarization taught not only to teachers but as a standard part of student curriculum at an early age. You don't even need to handle a physical gun for that.

As most of us know, many fear guns and shooting because they've never been exposed to it except through unrealistic TV and movies junk and taking the mystery out of it many times changes the perspective. Many a non-gun person has been 'converted' by a little kindness, patience, forbearance and a trip to the range with a .22 . . . .

__________________
Qui plantavit curabit

What I am trying to communicate is that we have in place a system that would provide on the spot protection.
By on the spot, I mean, at the point of conflict without need of getting someone there while we wait.
This is certainly not perfect but i doubt that you will ever devise a plan that is perfect for anything in this life.
Al we can do is all we can do----trying is better than sitting around discussing.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

A lot of teachers can't even teach. You expect them to use a gun properly? This is wishful thinking. Israel is the most paranoid place on earth and armed to the teeth. They still can't prevent every attack.

Joe, do you think paranoid is really the term to describe Israel's system of readiness? I think they are committed to survival but, given their opponents and location, I certainly wouldn't call them paranoid. We can learn much from the Israelis mode of operation. They have many problems but so do we including a generation of mongrel children who have no clue how civilization works. It's going to get worse here before it gets better imho.

I'm for arming and training interested volunteers. They must undergo thorough background check and extensive firearms training. If a teacher/administrator/janitor wants to participate they are certainly welcomed and encouraged. We can afford to do this.

__________________
God spelled backwards is dog.

I could be mistaken, but as I read 18 USC Sec. 922(q), the Federal gun free school zone law does NOT apply to persons with a valid carry permit issued by the state where the school is located and the state was required to investigate before issuing the permit.

I think this means that according to at least Federal law, teachers and other staff with the right carry permit could carry a concealed weapon at their schools (provided they also complied with any state and local laws as well)

YMMV so consult with an attorney in your state and before you even think of doing this.

__________________
Buy American
Vote Responsibly

I spent my life working as a armed guard. Did it longer than I am old if you called OT factor, and I am almost 72.
When I was a kid in the 50s there was a program of voulenteers for a hole in the dew line called the civilian aircraft observation corp. They were unpaid. Our house sat on the highest hill in the area and across the road was our school. Not big. People would come and sit in their car and read a book or whatever. They were given a book of aircraft pictures of types of planes. When ever something bigger than a puddeljumper flew over they would note the elivation and direction, walk over to the enteryway of the school and call it in. No, there wasnt enough voulenteers, but certain people would drive up, sit and escape the wife, read or whatever. This was around 1953. My family was given a book, think I have it stashed in the garage. Mom would sometimes run across the road when she saw a plane and use the phone.
Ground Observation Corps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guarding our schools could be a mix of paid cops and guards for the larger schools that can afford it, right down to tested and qualified unpaid retired voulenteers in the same manner doing their quiet hours sitting in their pickup in the school yard guarding the kiddies with a handy shotgun and pitchfork. While the best security in the world can be breeched, we play the odds and numbers. Word gets out that there is guards on the grounds, even if its old jake the retired village barber, odds are the school will be passed up by the village idiot that snapped.
The jobs would be thankless, volenteers thought useless and even thought to be a barney fife want be. Give them a uniform and pay them a couple bucks a hour and that might help a little.
The real deal is it would never be known if the guy donateing his time or even if paid, had really prevented any potential incident. But nation wide, somewhere it would be sure it had. Aint it the same with all paid LE and guards?

Well, Merril, we know what gun free zones, heads in the sand, and doing nothing get us.

As for a general issue of weapons to teachers--probably the last time that made any sense was in Sparta.

I like this idea. Make it optional for any staff to participate in the program. i'm sure it would be a minority. train them and maybe pay them more or give some other perk.

Credentialed, not educated is the term I've heard.


There is a lot of federal grant money that goes to public schools. That's why the NEA and other teacher unions support big government. Still, you point is valid because the school administrators and others wouldn't stand for a program where anyone other the police officers carry firearms in schools. Heck, they don't even want them to carry, but have no choice.

This is often because they HAVE to do this, not because they have money floating around to spend. The special educations laws of many states require 1 on 1 aides for some types of special ed students. Again, there is sometimes federal or state grant money available for this.

A similar issue of whether or not EMTs and paramedics should be allowed to carry firearms comes up about once a week on the EMS forums. The arguments are much the same as in this debate. My position is that EMTs and paramedics who are already licensed to carry concealed weapons should be able to independently of their job. Same goes for teachers. Heck, the same goes for everyone no matter what their job is. The Second Amendment should apply to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

Actually I like the idea of having armed personnel at schools if that person also teaches gun safety. Then perhaps in High School the armed instructor could teach gun handeling.

Be aware that in some of our past school shootings there were armed security people present without beneficial effect.

A lower cost solution would be to harden the classrooms and offices with better locks and bullet resistant glass to allow the police more time to respond.

__________________
Luke 22:36

Look. We can protect people on the other side of the planet. We protect our top politicans. We have cops and guards at sports events, TSA, not to began to mention paid private guards in factorys and business`s. All the above are paid. What is wrong with haveing volunteers. I would have a program that does background checks and a standard of training. I belive people here are naturaly pictureing in their minds schools of a thousand kids or more. Dont most of those size schools already have a paid cop assigned by the city? I have been talking about the many thousands of smaller schools where the rual areas really cant afford paid guards.
All over this country in rich citys down to poor country areas we have volunteer fire departments and almost all if not all, police and sheriff depts seem to get unpaid reserves. It absolutely is the "romance" of the job that draws people to want to work for free. Now sitting in a schoolyard or in a hallway reading a book in civilian cloths doesnt sound too romantic or exciteing listening to a bunch of squalling kids does it? I usualy look for a different table in a resturant when that happens to me!
Yet I belive there is enough retired people out there that would do it.
What are the actual figuers differance between aircraft hijacks and killings and killings in schools? Does a man that flys on business value his life more than his kid that go`s to school unprotected? Now, how much is spent on the whole TSA system as opposed to already paid school guards.
It fast gets to be all about numbers and odds doesnt it? Bottom line is life is a gamble. Isnt it insane not to take advantage of people that may want to volenteer to protect their grandchildren? I guess a person could take their chances with law enforcement and lawyers if found sitting on the street in their car armed, or being "blessed" by the system by haveing attended a fed or state backed training and background check system.

I contend that any CCW holder in the state of Texas could do as well as any that could be hired and if it were a teacher you are applying pressure to the point of the bleeding.
I also do not hold the same opinion of teachers that some here do.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

How about this? I just seen on fox that the average person whos income is 20,000 to 30,000 dollars will go up a little over a $1,000s in extra taxs now. Many of us retirees are in that bracket. How about letting us work off our taxs at a meer $5 a hour guarding schools? Hell ov a deal!

lf parents spent half the time protecting the kids as they do supprting the football team we would have the safest schools around

I remember my very first day in school. Some older kid stood on the merry go round while other kids pumped it back and forth. Then he dared me to do it without grabbing anything. I wouldnt do it so he threw a rock at me and bloodied my forehead. I thought him too big to lick so walked home to my folks general store. I picked up dads belt that was always on the wall to keep me in line. Dad seen me, let me walk about a block ahead and followed me to see what I was up to. Recess was over and no kids were in sight. Dad disarmed me as I was going in the school. Off thread I know, just happened to remember that.

Unless we lock all the kids in behind windowless steel and concrete doors and walls , no law or non-lethal plan is ever gonna stop a demented individual with a lethal plan and the willingness to die while or after carrying it out.

No, we cant. We even couldnt prevent kennedy and president regan from getting shot. But we can prevent or diswade most from trying. It just depends on how much money we want to spend. You look at the odds and see how much its worth betting. I have said that forever about everything I do.

And yet the missed point of the Tacoma shootings was that until the store owner rushed out and challenged the coward with the AK, said coward figured he had a target rich environment of unarmed targets! Seeing even a snub .38 in the hands of a resolute owner, made him turn tail and run!
Just like the monster in Newtown. He was starting to reload after shooting up the class room, he turned and saw several LEOs approaching rapidly, this punk then took out a pistol and ended his existence!
Should teachers be armed...only if they want to. And why not put some of us veterans on the job? Dale

__________________
"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I never will forget a stupid incident in high school. I was stretched out on a narrow cement wall at a entrance to the school durring lunch hour. The school loud mouth came up mouthing off something about how tough he was and I wasnt or similar. I wasnt worried in the least but I guess in turning around to look him over or answer I honestly unintendionly rolled off the wall. He thought I was getting off to come after him and started yelling he was sorry etc! Not all these nuts are like that but many are.

I remember the janitor in my grade school was a retired WWII vet. My shop teacher in High school was a retired Vietnam vet. Both trained soldiers. We already have trained personnel out there they just need to be utilized.

My wife and I had this very discussion several nights ago. The world has changed greatly in the last 30 years. It is a different place where violence is the rule. The schoolground is now the new battleground and no amount of blaming inanimate onjects and poor mental health will change that. I spent over 34 years with the DOD managing its "people programs" all over the world and I never saw or heard of gun violence at a DoDDS school populated by kids of all ages, daycare thru high school. Why?? Many bases have been attacked by our enemies, but the kids have remained safe. They are protected by MPs and Federal Guards and trained teachers. Teachers are the "Boots on the Ground" and a way must be found to bring them into the act of defending their cahrges with whatever force necessary. There are a lot of former military that are teachers, we need to hear from them. This problem transcends the liberal/conservative argument. The battlefield is real and the solution must meet the challenge, a defensive stradegy is mandated, be it armed guards are armed teachers. That's my 2 cents and obtw we both have advanced graduate degrees.

When folks talk about armed security at our schools, it usually means hiring a contract guard service. Do not get me wrong here, there are MANY MANY good folks in the contract guard biz. However, most that I have dealt with in over two decades have been little more than warm bodies in a cheap uniform provided by a guard contractor who is really little more than a personnel agency.
I have only met a very small handful of the guards I have worked with over the years that I would trust with a sidearm. The biz is set to a price, not a standard. Having this kind of service may be cost effective for the district...but in the addage of "you get what you pay for" opens up a whole can of worms on other problems.
When I was growing up, there was no such thing as school police. In my district, the Principal was the highest authority for everyone on campus. If things got beyond that, then the Sheriff's office or HPD was called in. Now, just about every school district of any size has its own police force or contracts with the local Constable's office for such things. Most of the schools I have seen these days have a school district cop stationed on site during the day. Some of these campuses are way to big to be properly serviced by one officer.
The real answers will have to come from each individual school district in each area. However, my firm recommendation would be for them to steer clear of contract security guards or "volunteers" in favor of someone with full police powers, training, and authority.
I have known many teachers who were proficient and knowledgeable with firearms. But having them armed on campus is also a can of worms.

__________________
The Last Standing Knight

A can of worms in what sense? Controversial, do you mean?

If teachers themselves are not leftist, their unions certainly are. I cannot see the teachers unions agreeing to armed teachers. Not in public schools anyway. As for school administrators, in general, common sense is not part of their vocabulary or mind set. Even teachers will tell you that.

Guns is schools will ALWAYS be controversial. What I mean is the politics involved. Even if school staff were trained and armed. Due to the political stances involved, most likely the pistol would be locked in the school administrative offices and would not be readily availible in the event of an emergency. Even the administrators so involved in this would not carry all the time while on grounds.
While all of us feel the same way on the political side of the issue, the fact is it is still there. If another event occurs and the administrator is armed, but doesn't have nor can access the gun in an emergency, the results will be "The Principal had a gun and it did no good..." and will only fuel an already growing anti-firearm sentiment in parts of this nation.

__________________
The Last Standing Knight

Yes despite an immense superiority over their enemies. The Israels have nukes, tanks, modern weaponry, a huge army and air force vs a disorganized Palestinian band of rock throwers and old, ineffective missiles. I'll steer away from the politics except to say it's a military mismatch of epic proportions.

Not disagreeing with you, but I read that in Utah CCW permit holders can currently carry in schools, and that Texas is considering similar legislation.

Maybe that is the approach? Just make it legal, and no one knows who is carrying or who is not.... Would obviate the need to argue about it in particular schools...

The governors of at least 2 states and the attorney general of Ohio have called for arming a person "on staff".
A gun shop in Texas offered free CCW classes for teachers and has 400 already signed up.
Not every teacher is a good candidate for an armed responder, but don't discount that it can work.

Myron

I recall going to HS in a farming community in the late 50s early 60s. Our HS had a rifle team, NRA .22RM position shooting. Also at least every other PU and car in the school parking lot had some kind of rifle or shotgun in the gun rack, or under a seat. No one remarked on it or though it was unusual. It was after Kennedy was killed that the country started getting the anti-gun laws and the guns are bad drumbeat of propaganda from the media.

At a minimum I would use a man trap entrance and bullet resistant glass and an armed police officer at a school entrance. Only one entrance with all other entrances not accesible from the outside.

You might be able to rebuild some elementary schools to accommodate this, but not middle and high schools and certainly not colleges and universities. Except for the elementary schools, the hourly routine is for 1,000 to 20,000 students to hustle across campus to get sat down in a different building before their 10 minutes are up.

The world is a can of worms---it is full of people and some people are wormy. I have some friends that suspect I am one of those wormy people.
Let's look at this as realistic as a body can. Not every teacher is a dummy and alefty---some yes---I suggest, from my experience, NO!
Can one of them go bonkers? YES! Can one of them Panic and run? YES! Seems like that is what you would take the chance of when you hire someone.
My daughter would love to be able to carry in her school--but--she can't.
I would like it if every teacher who wants to carry in school would have the right to do so.
Now, I know that I live in a pretty right winged state and that my experiences with teachers seems to be far different than some of you folks--but--I really don't think that there is as much difference as you would emagine. My son-in-law is the exception, but I still love him.
Blessings

__________________
TEXAS, by GOD

What is your point? Shouldn't we learn from what works in other places?

You're not paranoid if people are really out to get you.

Do away with the "gun free" zones so that those employees with a ccw may excercize their right to carry concealed. A specified guard is merely the first to get shot.

Regards,

Tam 3

I am amazed at the teacher bashing going on. Every profession has good and bad people involved, you guys who are lumping all teachers together just plain don't know many teachers. I mean all the people on gun forums must be violent gun nuts right?

You would probably be surprised how many teachers would be willing to volunteer for any training needed, and also surprised how good they would be at the training. I will agree some teachers can't teach and some shouldn't be in a classroom or school, same for some administration. However, there are many many great teachers who are also firmly planted in the real world.

LEO are some of the hardest working people out there, but again there are some bad ones. Also, they are not magically injected with more moral responsibility than others once they get their gun. I would think the LEO world, if they knew the teacher etc. had the same if not more training than them, would welcome the help in such a situation.

I am a teacher, and gun owner, a ccw holder, and a firearm instructor. Lets stop with the "every teacher" *******.

TD

__________________
More stuff!!!