I'm not sure how it is in other states, but here in NC, if you have a CCP, you can walk in a gun store and walk out with whatever you want. No additional permits. No additional background checks. My qualification for a CCP was/is my background check.

I know it's hypothetical at this point, but what do you guys think about the new talk of thorough background checks for new gun purchases? Do you think we will still have this ability to purchase immediately or do you think it's going to become a PITA for everybody, including us.

I know it's all speculatory at this point but I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

Thanks!

Here in NJ we need to apply for a purchase permit. We are permitted to apply for three at a time and only one handgun can be purchased in a 30 day period. Some have a continuous stream of applications pending but it's still one per month. Once the permit is approved at the store a NICs check is done and that part is a walk in and walk out. Takes about 10 or 15 minutes.

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Back to back World War Champs.

In Ohio there is a phone-in background check that takes 30 seconds to 5 minutes, depending on traffic. If your name isn't not on whatever list they have on the other end of the phone line, you may make your purchase and leave with it. The only "license" you need is one for your ID. Driver's license, State ID, etc. You do not need a concealed carry permit to purchase a firearm.

Hi Wilson, excuse my lack of knowledge. I always thought that an FFL gun dealer had to have you fill out the federal questionnaire (what's that thing called?) and then call in the application and get a yes or no.

I'm just asking....I thought that was a nation-wide standard.

Maybe not?

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'Merica!

Ohio's system works for us.

FFL dealer makes a phone call, then you're good to go, I always ADD

my SSN (on the optional info line) to the paperwork.

That's just incase someone also has my name somewhere else.

Some other states ADD UNNECESSARY ROADBLOCKS to their

systems as a means of harassment to firearms owners RIGHTS.

BAD GUYS/GALS are lawbreakers in general, if they have the desire

to obtain a firearm, they will, ROB, STEAL, and will do whatever's

is necessary to obtain one. Laws, New or Old mean little or nothing to them,

because the present laws wouldn't let them have one anyway.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

That is true here in NC as well, of course. We just don't have to do anything further... right now.

Interesting. I know it's really a separate topic but I intentionally OMIT the SSN. Why? Because I can and I don't want big brother to have access to any more information than I absolutely have to give him. Maybe it's just me. I'm sure it doesn't matter but it matters to me.

In California instead of a background check, we have to eat quiche and yogurt in front of the salesman before we are allowed to purchase a weapon. That way they know we'd be too scared to ever use it.

Here in CA, even with a CCW permit, one has to go through the background check AND wait 10 days before taking delivery. Supposed to be a cooling down period for those with intent commit crimes.

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Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

Do you live in Marin Co. ?

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Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

that's all we do in Louisiana as well. And what with our recent passing of our own SUPER 2nd amendment, I seriously doubt it will ever change.

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Forum consigliere

But what if you want to kill the guy right now????

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Forum consigliere

WilsonFlyer,

There was thread a couple of days ago about DRONES flying over the US, and soon to be 20,000 or so flying here.

Traffic light cameras, business security cameras, put your address on Google Satillite Maps and look at your house.

Your internet traffic can be followed.

Your cell phone activity and location can be followed.

Your Credit/Debit Card activity can be followed.

Your finances and Income Tax records can be followed.

Walcome to Orwell's 1984 Revised, you're ON CANDID CAMERA!

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

No, I live in LA along with the minions of hypocrites in the movie industry. You, however, are lucky enough to have Diane. Not sure which is worse.

The 'cooling off' period was probably the idea Feinstein and Boxer, both of whom would have been the primary beneficiaries.

Caje,

If it had to be right now, and your're located in Kalifornia,

borrow one from a Gangbanger, they're located on most streetcorners.

Laws or No Laws.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Doesn't matter. Even with a PA state issued LTCF - License to Carry Firearms , ya still have to do a PA State Police Instant Background Check every time you buy a firearm.

Basically because of the attached $5 fee , which goes to pay for the IBC system.

And ya might have been arrested recently and had it revoked.

We have to fill out a form and pay $10 for an instant background check. I don't look for that to change, as the state gains a lot of revenue from me alone on this farce. I've been checked for my carry permit, as well as 100s of ffl checks. They don't expect to find anything, but they do enjoy the cash.

Private party to party transfers are immune to this check. I do look for that to change; more revenue!

I still haven't been able to learn exactly what "the gunshow loophole" is. As far as I know, every law that applies outside a gunshow is still enforced there as well.

Anyone here ever purchase a firearm before 1968....?

After '68, it's all gone down hill, what with 4473s, waiting periods, background checks and everything but givin blood....As the song sez, "And The Beat Goes On!"......

Boys, it'll be like whiskey, if they can't ban it...They'll Jest Tax It!

Hell, I saw some 'Popcorn Sutton's Moonshine' in the liquor store the other day....Had a Tax Stamp on it!

Dang!

What's this world coming to, I ask ya!.......


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

We have an instant background check here in Tenn. No limits that I'm aware of.

When I buy a suppressor I have to go through the Feds for a tax stamp. Cost is $200 and the wait can be six months or longer.

When you hear "Universal Background Check" on guns, think "Tax Stamp" and the better part of a year wait.

If the NRA "negotiates" anything on background checks, I sure hope they fight for Class 3 INSTANT background check.

keith44spl,

Can you just imagine saying POPCORN SUTTON and TAX STAMP together.

What's the world comng to?

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Phil,

I'd be willin' for a repeal of the '86 deal and the '34 Act as well..........
Jest let everything be run by the state ccw licensing division(s).

That would give the ATF more time to track down all them bootleg cigarettes.
*
(CDC sez, more that 400,000 die each year from tobacco in this country, but it sure generates a lot of tax revenue)


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

You buy a shot gun or "assault rifle" as those are not dangerous and there is no 3 day wait for those. Just how dumb are these laws anyway??

In FL everyone does a 4473, it's on computer now so a lot faster. If you have a concealed permit you can walk out with a handgun same day. No permit wait 3 days (if you pass background) But that's whats so stupid, you can leave with any rifle or shotgun but not a 22 lr handgun?? If you trade a handgun you can also leave same day.

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Still Running Against the Wind

That ol feller would roll over in his grave...If he knew it!!!


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Individuals who purchase a firearm from an FFL do have to fill out a forum 4473, but the phone in NICS check is waived here in Michigan if the buyer has a Concealed Pistols License. The NICS check was also waived for non-CPL holders who obtained a handgun purchase permit, but recent changes to the law eliminated the need to first obtain a purchase permit when buying a handgun from a Federally licensed dealer. I believe we're not the only State that meets BATFE criteria and is exempt.

Here's the ATF announcement: ATF Open Letter to All Michigan Federal Firearms Licensees

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"I also cook."

I remember a time long ago one could buy a weapon from a catalog at your local hardware store, and wait whatever time it was, and pick it up when it arrived. The only paperwork involved was the exchange of cash, and a handwritten receipt. If memory serves me, my first shotgun was a Savage 24, over and under, 22LR/410, and my mom ordered it from an ad in a magazine, cut out the coupon, and mailed it along with $59.00 in cash in an envelope. It was a long 4 weeks before I got that gun....still have it, along with the receipt from Sears and Roebuck.

Just to clarify what seems to be a misunderstanding, in many states those who have a Concealed Carry Permit are exempt from any requirement for a background check. However, those states that provide this particular exemption normally impose a much more thorough background check before granting that Permit to Carry.

Michigan is one of those states that exempts those with concealed carry permits from a background check at the time of purchase. Another benefit is that having that permit also exempts us from any requirement to obtain a Pistol Purchase Permit, so it saves us 10 bucks per handgun. However, in order to qualify for a Michigan Concealed Pistol License you have to pass a FBI nationwide records search, a Statewide County by County records search of both Court and Mental Health systems, and be free of any convictions or pending Court actions on a rather extensive list of offenses. As an example, if you have too many points on your drivers license or just a single Reckless Driving conviction you'll be declined for a Concealed Pistol License for IIRC within 7 years of the conviction or offense. Quite simply, Michigan has made a real and distinct effort to insure that people with a history of acting in a Reckless or Criminal manner are not granted a Permit to carry concealed.

Personally, I fully endorse Michigan's effort in weeding out the knuckleheads and setting the bar a bit high. It means that having that permit indicates that someone is actually a rather good, law abiding, citizen and most police officers know this. As a result, we are treated a bit like a VIP on the rare occasion that we are actually stopped for a traffic offense. A second benefit is that we can walk in and purchase a firearm with the only requirement being we fill out a 4473 and have the funds. Third benefit is that the Michigan CPL is currently recognized in 39 states, if I'm not mistaken that is more than any other state.

And a lot of settlement money too. in 1998 tobacco companies settled with states for over $200 billion to be paid over a 25 year period. I remember a guy telling me- "That's the end of Big Tobacco", to which I replied- "That settlement ensures that they will remain alive and well." Now back on topic....

You cannot. You surely know by now that killing requires a military style weapon and a 30 round mag.

In days of old, Handguns could be MAIL ORDERED (Herter's), and the delivery would be to your home.

I think the GCA of 1968 eliminated THAT TYPE OF BUSINESS.

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

[QUOTE=keith44spl;136929350]Phil,

I'd be willin' for a repeal of the '86 deal and the '34 Act as well..........
Jest let everything be run by the state ccw licensing division(s).

That is what I want to see. "shall not be infringed" is when I can buy a sheen gun with the same rules as a single barrel shotgun. Larry

In Texas if you have a CCL you do the paperwork but the call in check is waived.

They seem to think that the background check done when you got the permit with fingerprints and photos is enough. I agree.

I don't have a problem with FULL AUTOS, but what a job and expense to KEEP EM' FED!

Now here's a novel idea, FOOD STAMPS TO KEEP YOUR FULLY AUTO FED.

A similar program exists in Switzerland I do believe.

SWISSMAN, Chime in if your around.

Homes in Swiss Land still have full autos in them?

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NRA Pistol/Rifle Inst. RSO

Yes, to get back on topic....In the places I hang out........

State Concealed Carry Lic. stands for current background check...



Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

As a former FFL dealer and gun show vendor , let me try to explain in 2 parts.

The part about there being NO rules at gunshows is pure BS.

And we hear about "unlicensed dealers"? If you're not licensed , you're not a dealer! And as a Federally Licensed dealer , you need to follow the same rules as at your retail place.

However , , ,

In some states , a person who is not an FFL dealer can set up a table at a gunshow and sell long guns from his own private collection to others , face to face , without doing the checks , and no 4473 because he is not an FFL or retail dealer.

Here in PA , someone can set up selling a bunch of old .22s , hunting rifles , military rifles or shotguns , face to face with no background checks , providing there are no state or local laws prohibiting such sales. Of course the buyer is still committing a felony. Seller can always plead ignorance.

Of course , some people take too much advantage of this LOOPHOLE to make a quick buck. I've seen the same old guys at gunshows for 20yrs selling and trading old guns (mostly to each other) that generally are not used in crimes.

Of course , someone could always set up a table and sell his 'personal collection' of 48 brand new in box ARs for $2500 to whoever has the cash , no questions or paperwork.
Something's fishy there , and the show promoter needs to step up. Most show promoters do not allow guns to be sold by non-FFLs.
Some smaller 'social hall' gun shows do.

And at many shows , I could walk thru a with any longarm slung over my shoulder and a FOR SALE sign on it and sell it face to face to whoever has the cash.


From what I understand , some states allow residents to sell handguns to each other , anywhere within the state of course.

Here in PA , any handgun transfer must go thru an FFL with background check.

Is that just a PA thing?

Never have heard of that one before.

Laws vary from state though...Federal Law stays the same....

Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Since I am on the other side of 80 years old I can remember buying my first gun at Montgomery Wards with no paper work. The sporting goods clerk shot for a local indoor rifle team and we knew him well. Those were heady days, blasting woodchucks and being young. I can also remember buying Ball C-2 powder for .85 cents/pound.

Ideally , a person should at least know a someone he's selling a gun too. If ya don't know the person to be of good character , ya shouldn't be selling to him.

Selling to a prohibited person could also be seen as a straw purchase , now a felony in PA.

Therein lays the problem. At the state/county/local level , the harshest penlty , possession of a firearm by a prohibited person, which is supposed to carry a mandatory minimum sentence , is usually the first statute plea bargained away. Especially in the biggest , more liberal cities.

If the Federal statute was applied and prosecuted in Federal court with minimum sentence served in Federal prison , maybe things would be different.

to mkk41, yes here in TX an individual can sell a gun to any other private person without going through an FFL. In fact many people go to gun shows with their pistol or rifle in hand and a paper "For Sale" sign and sell it for cash inside or outside of the show area. There are usually police at the doors and they check weapons and put zip ties through the weapon so it cannot be loaded/fired while inside the show area.

I have bought and sold pistols privately and always ask the other party to fill out a bill of sale with DL or CHL# at a minimum. Not that I want to track them, but if for some reason down the road I'm questioned about the weapon I can at least show some sort of documentation I sold it to another person.

OK , so that is probably what the few politicians that do know what they're talking about mean by 'loophole'. Most politicos , along with the talking heads on the news are just parrotting a catch-phrase.

Now I am sure this will ruffle some feathers.

I see lots of guys who I know are unlicensed "sellers" buy up guns at the local pawn shop and then turn around and re sell them for profit at gun shows.

Now I believe that an individual should be able to sell a gun to another individual in their State which is the law, but why should these guys be able to make a business of it and not be a FFL, charge tax, and have all the other requirements that a true FFL has?? This gun shop loop hole is what gets the Govt excited.

When does it become a business? One gun, 10 guns 100 guns?.

I heard one of these guys say the other day if they pass the loop hole law it will put him out of business!.

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Still Running Against the Wind

MKK41,

Sir,

I agree in part....Since dissolving my gun business and
relinquishing my FFL, I use my local FFL dealer to do my
business of transfers...I don't run in to your described examples very often.

But, I said all of that to say this....If I were to do a individual
citizen to individual citizen transfer, the commonality of State
issued Concealed Carry Licenses would suffice as to the
criminal background of the parties involved or lack there of,
i.e. in lieu of a criminal history to any and all parties involved.

As an investigator for the DA Office...I believe, the above described
felony is a tough one to get an indictment on...Lettle on a conviction around these parts, (The South and Southwest).

But, I'd say you may recall back the ol days when there was a rash of
dealers gettin their teats caught in the ringer over all those questionable straw-man sales.


Any hows, there a hell of a lot of prosecutorial hoops to
jump through to get from a charge to a conviction.


Su Amigo,
Dave

__________________
"IN GOD WE TRUST"

How about we do background checks on Politicians instead?????????

Here in Virginia, a CCW only allows you to carry concealed, along with having no limit to the amount of guns you can buy. Those without a CCW are limited to one handgun per month. One can sell FTF to another state resident providing one does his due diligence, like getting a copy or writing down the DL #, the CCW#, name, address, and phone number of both seller and buyer, and having all that info on a bill of sale. If you are not a FFL in Virginia, you can set up a booth at a gun show and sell, but I'm not sure if there are limitations on how much of whatever a non FFL can sell at a gun show.

One can sell to another out of state, but one has to ship to a FFL for the transfer to occur, AND it's important to know that if you ship to another FFL as part of a sales transaction, and you're not a FFL, you must ship FedEx Priority overnight...handgun shipping with this method generally runs about $90.00. I have bought a handgun from a non FFL from out of state, and the seller went on the cheap and sent the gun to my FFL by ground at a cost of about $25.00, and with 3 days of transit....that's a big no no that will definitely get you in the hurt locker.

if you look at it from the perspective of a gun control advocate, it's pretty simple.

* Felon wants a handgun.

* Gun Show Table A requires a background check becasue they are an FFL.

* Gun Show Table B does not require a background because they are not an FFL.

The gun control advocate looks at it in the same way as if Cabela's had one gun counter that required background checks and one counter that did not.

Of course the same "loophole" would apply to any private sale regardless if it was at a gun show or not, but gun control crusades require labels for easy public identification-- "Gun Show Loophole".

Yes Dave , I agree.

However , how does one know the license/permit to carry is still valid or has not been revoked? Or is real for that matter.

OK , you may know what your states license looks like , but until a few years ago , the ones in my state varied from county to county. Although valid throughout Pennsylvania , the county sheriffs are the issuing agencies. There wasn't even a central database to check validity. They do not use your PA drivers license or non-driver ID number , which is used by the PASP for background checks , so it has no real bearing on the purchase of a firearm at a dealer. Most didn't even have photos , just vital description. They were a simple , and easily copied or counterfieted and typed form , folded and laminated in plastic. A questioning officer had to contact the issuing county sheriffs office during business hours.

They have supposedly been standardized throughout the state.

And make 'em pee in a cup!

So you believe that the federal background check is insufficient, and for people to purchase a weapon they need to prove they are better than a normal citizen, sort of guilty until proven innocence?

Personally I will never get a concealed weapons permit. I'm clueless why people feel they have to prove they are "special", get finger printed, get put in a government database accessed by all, get their names published in the local paper, etc.

I find it a great irony that while the NRA has always been adamantly opposed to registration they believe the concealed carry laws are just great. Me personally, I see no difference in individual gun restriction and owner registration.

To the start of this thread.
I also live in North Carolina. While it's true you do not have to go thru the NICS check with a concealed carry permit, you can still purchase doing the regular FFL check. While it might take 5 minute longer it's still cheaper than the hassle of getting a carry permit.

What is different from this states than most states I've lived in, is that you need either a concealed carry permit or a sheriffs permit, to purchase (or receive in any manner) a handgun from another individual (even close relatives).

This is what closes the "gun show loop hole".

And yes I'm remember per 1968. Gun ownership was not looked upon as a reason to consider a person dangerous or mentally unstable. When the '68 law as passed it easy 3 simple questions. I'm not sure how many questions are on their now but I know one of them prohibits ownership if convected of a misdemeanor.

That's correct and in Ohio it is not limited to long guns. I have been to many shows where a "Private Collector" sets up a table with a sign that states: "Private Collection For Sale". Rifles, shotguns, pistols and revolvers, from the beaters up to minty-as-new-in-box. They are the busiest "vendor" at the show with the highest prices (cash only, please) and I always give them a wide berth because of the unsavory-looking characters who belly up to the bar.
I wasn't born yesterday. Everyone knows why this guy is there and why he is getting 1-1/2x the price for his "private collection" as anyone else. Yes Virginia, there IS a gun show loophole and folks like the one I described are ruining it for the law-abiding citizen. The promotors don't care as it is legal and they benefit as well.

That's the problem , as far as the politicians are concerned. There are Federal laws and state laws. I'm all for the right of the individual states to make their laws. If crimes are commited with guns that cross state lines , then the Feds should take over.

Here in PA , residents must transfer handguns thru a dealer with background check. Parent to child , spouse to spouse 'gifts' excluded. Although any form of 'registration of guns and their owners' is expressly prohibited by state law , the PASP has illegally maintained what they call a 'Record of Sale database' of all handguns sold by dealers within the commonwealth , even though they admit it's 'incomplete' at best.

If a PA resident is found in possession of a handgun with a 'record of sale' to another PA resident , they have some explaining to do.

If someone is found in possession of a handgun with 'no record' in their database , (they bought it while a resident of another state) , they just might have it confiscated till they can prove legal ownership.

I have a C&R license , with which I have purchased several handguns ,both within PA and from out of state , which creates another set of problems. Yes , they are all logged into my book. However , there is no 'record of sale'. The PASP says they do not consider C&R purchases 'legal' , though there is no state laws to the contrary. They have been known to confiscate guns from C&R holders when guns do not show up in their 'record of sale database'. And I often carry my CZ-82 , which was purchased under my C&R.