I read this story, a presentation by Sergeant Timothy Gramins to the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin, and I cannot imagine facing an aggressor like the one Sergeant Gramins encountered. His story reinforces my respect for all LEOs who put their lives on the line every day.

This officer was in a one-on-one gun battle for his life with an attacker who would not go down despite being shot 14 times with .45 caliber rounds. Six of the shots should have been fatal.

At the bottom of the sidebar to this story is a link to “Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant”.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

I came to the conclusion after reading all over about "one shot stops" is that after you fire once you'd better be prepared to keep firing.

I suppose self/home defenders answering to charges that they 'shot too many times' would be helped by this case.

I like his last word on the matter. "Preparation"

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Interesting that he now only carries 9mm instead of the .45.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

Got me feeling like my snubbie's inadequate.

Yeah, that caught my eye, too. I'm wondering if something revealed in the autopsy on the perp made him do that.

If you read further down in the comments, he states why.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I came to that conclusion after the shootout in my station. A snubby carries well and is very comforting until bullets start flying and you realize that no amount of ammo is enough when they are flying both ways. Since then a compact Glock is the least I will carry and most days its a full size duty weapon.

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Plastic has no soul

I've heard the stupid ER commments before also. Years ago I got into it with a guy and even though I eventually came out on top I looked as bad as he did. I heard one of the ER workers in the next cube say "why did they have to beat him so bad?" I said "come over here and find out," meaning come see what I look like. It must have scared her because I heard her leave without seeing me.

As far as the gunfight goes remember this: Once you commit to shoot, you shoot to kill. You shoot to kill to keep from getting killed and you don't quit shooting until the other guy is no longer moving. If you do quit shooting it may give him the opportunity to kill you.

Shoot till you run out of ammo. Don't reload and start again though that kind of p***** off the cops when they arrive.

Thought that might be it.

This was stated at the top of the page. I would guess that it's because you can hold more rounds.

"Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”

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-Dik

Once an exchange of gunfire commences you cannot have enough in the way of cover or rounds to return fire. I really do not feel that caliber is the issue in many of these situations as in this one you had an officer with a .45 acp, touted as the ultimate manstopper. I think they are excellent as is the .40, 9mm and .357 Sig but if you have a determined suspect who decides he isn't going to submit or die then it's on and you had best be prepared to hit him as fast and as many times as you can to put him or her DOWN. I would nt question anyone in their choice of firearms for defensive carry but when I go out I try and be prepared with reloads for both weapons and hopefully not become embroiled in anything. If it is unavoidable then I hope my training and mental preparedness will keep me safe. Stay well all.

WOW !
Now I don't mind CCW a Glock 17 9mm

Wow! Crazy story, just proves that you never know when or where the world suddenly goes to poop. One of the main reasons I switched from carrying a 1911 on duty (a much as I love my 1911s) and went with a FNP45 Tactical was capacity - 15+1 vs 8+1. I work in a very rural area where back up could easily be 20mins or more away, nobody to bum mags off of out here, you need to be able to hold your own until the job is done.

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Don't kiss smiling dogs!

In IDPA we have a setup we call the "Mozambique Drill" . It simulates three 200 lbs bad guys running at you, wired to the gills on cocaine. Two shots to the chest each, move to cover with Tac\retention reload and then 1 to the head.

Yowzer !! It makes me want to carry a Thompson M1928 with the hundred round drum.

I've notice during my career that pain tolerance of some people is unbelievably high. I had a patient in the Air Force that had me take out two teeth without anesthetic and one of those teeth was in deep. He wasn't a big guy but I'd hate to meet him in a dark alley. It sort of makes me rethink the 30 round magazine. Too bad they don't fit in a 1911.

Pcp lol, in all seriousness scary!

Note the responses from Sgt. Gramins and from TPD223 (Lt. Chuck Haggard), both of whom are BTDT. They know of what they speak, and although I don't know Chuck personally, I do know people who do, and all respect him. My last LE agency was 45 only. When I carried a 1911, I had 8+1 in it, and a quad mag carrier, plus 5 more mags in my patrol box or carbine case. When I transitioned to the G21, I had 13 +1, and 3 mags, plus another couple in my patrol box and carbine case. I also had at least 3 30 round mags of authorized carbine ammo in addition to the 50 rounds in department mags (1 30, 1 20). I also carried a G33 BUG, and a spare mag for it. I was usually in a rural area and could easily be 20+ minutes from backup.

The performance of the common duty calibers with good loads is so similar that it does not really matter; the cheaper ammo in 9mm (more practice) and higher capacity makes it a winner for most uses. Even now, retired, I rarely carry anything smaller than my G33 and a spare mag - a J frame is almost never anything but a 2nd or 3rd gun.

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NHI, 10-8.

This sums it up perfectly, and I will defer to Charlie Sherrill's lifetime of expertise in LE for providing such sound advice regarding ending a threat.

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I'm with the banned ...

This is surely an extreme case, but as several LE posters said, in rural areas it could be 10-15 minutes until backup arrives. Pretty much by then it is all over. There is another thread here about the .38 special. I think there is a reason why law enforcement went away from the .38 special. The FBI shootout in Florida established what is needed.

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Luke 22:36

The FBI incident was not really a ballistic failure, and it certainly was not a failure of courage or determination. It was, however, a failure of tactics and training, combined with very determined offenders.

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NHI, 10-8.

YEARS ago, i'd get ribbed at roll call for having two speed loaders along with the six in my service revolver. They asked me if a was expecting a war......Must a been before my time.......

There was an excellent "made for TV" documentary about that - "In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders (1988)". Available on DVD and also shows up on TV once in a while.

I mentioned that because some of the agents involved either ran out of ammo or had trouble reloading revolvers. No, the .38 spl is fine in some loadings, but the 9mm is cheaper, guns designed for it hold more rounds, and are flatter. I believe my M&P9 holds 17 rounds. I think every LEO should have a service pistol with several high capacity mags, a BUG, and an AR-15. These days if you get into a shootout with a "determined offender", there is a pretty good chance he (or she) will have a high cap magazine.

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Luke 22:36

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Well, I am glad this young officer was able to save his own life.

If he feels able to pack that many rounds on his person everyday...He's a heck of a lot better shape than most cops I know.

I'd get tired of luggin' all that ammo around after a while.

After my last little dust up...I got myself one of them AR- pistols to ride in the front seat there with me.

If my gut tells me too, I just drag er out with me....I ain't ashamed of it none neither.

First mag of 28 rounds, are tracers.....I'm think maybe


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

Tracers work both ways.

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Luke 22:36

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Yup....But, it makes for walkin em in,

from that short AR pistol a sumwhat easier!



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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

'bout the only time I 'spect you can have too much ammo is if you're havin' to swim with it!

Bob

Well, what does your wife say?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!