Saw where there is a move in Congress, both sides of the aisle and both upper and lower house to limit DHS and their toadies to stop buying all this ammo and to keep the same amount that they had in stock in 2002.

That sure would free up some for us.

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

I think this is much hype over nothing as I believe the DHS ammo buy is a long term contract ie what airliners do, buy huge quantities of fuel locking in their future supply at today's price. The reality is US the consumer buy the vast majority of ammo, more than the Government.

Congress also found that DHS ammo orders exceeded what the military is using by a thousand rounds per person per year. The military is fighting a war. I am sure that every person that works for DHS is not a gun toting LEO.

Why all the hollow point ammo? That's my question......

The DHS purchase IS a long term purchase contract, spread out over a couple of years. I still do not see ammo being freed up due to the idiot hoarders and resellers who jump at every conspiracy that comes out in regards to ammo and FEMA etc etc.

If money is no object, you may as well get the good stuff.

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RIP Shipmate

Heard an interview with someone from Federal. Ammo makers have to each year submit, to the ATF, the number of rounds they will produce that year. They are NOT permitted to produce more, unless Congress declares war.

What happened is DHS went to ALL the ammo makers, because they get first 'shot' at it, and bought close to the limit that each produce. In 2014 the makers, seeing the game, can request a higher number of rounds but for now we are stuck with it.

Guy from Federal said they would LOVE to put on more people to man the machines, this is a pretty computerized process so not a lot of training needed,but they can't.

I do not think that your post is accurate (nonsense would be a polite word)

-- ammunition manufacturers are running at full capacity (100%) and have been (according to numerous ammo manufacturers reports) for the past 10 years -- unprecedented consumer demand is causing the shortages as gun sales surge (millions of new gun buyers) and those who already own guns stockpile ammo for the guns they already own. Hornady, for example, recently announced that they have added additional presses, lathes, CNC equipment and manufacturing space, as well as having several hundred workers working overtime every week and they are running some production lines 24 hours a day. Remington made a similar announcement. They did not have to go to the government and ask permission to manufacture more ammo.

BATF does not limit ammunition production (quantity). They do not limit how many guns Smith and Wesson or Ruger, or Colt make every year.

And Dept of Homeland Security did not go to "ALL of the ammo manufacturers" and "bought close to the limit" that they produce. US ammunition manufacturers manufacture many more billions of rounds than what the government buys --billions and billions of rounds for the civilian market.
All of this info is available from commercial ammo manufacturers, their recent press releases and from ammo industry periodicals.

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Gunner, Sabot Up!

I understand primers, powder and loaded ammo being in short supply but what about lead bullets, such as Hornady and Speer swaged swc and hbwc. I doubt the government is buying up tons of these. Yet all of the major dealers have, for months, been backordered. Are these companies switching away from the production of lead bullets? Do they run large volumes all at once? I've seen powder and primers trickling into these dealers, including my LGS, but no bullets.

DHS bought the millions of 40 SW ammo as that's what they use and the need to practice a lot, so they practice with what they carry. Then they need to practice a lot again and again so they need to waste a lot of expensive ammo.

As to the rest of the supplies that are out of stock like bullets and powder that is just the good old supply and DEMAND as everyone freaked out and bought more hen will use in 10 lifetimes and did it all at once. Just take high cap P Mags for example, in a few days they sold more than they would normally sell in a year or more. So how do you recover from that.??

At least guns are showing up in the stores, lots of AR's around but no ammo yet to shoot.

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Still Running Against the Wind

Because if i could afford to practice with the same ammo i carry i would too.

DHS ammo is a long term purchase....i think its 5-6 years and there are a lot of agencies that fall under the DHS umbrella. Also every one forgets to mention the words in the contract that come right before the 5 BILLION rounds. They are "UP TO"

Agencies under DHS. Just from what i can remember

Border patrol
Immigration
Coast Guard
Secret service
FEMA
TSA

There is a bunch more. You think Border patrol, Coast Guard and secret service practice much?

Philadelphia police alocates 100 practice rounds per officer per week (although im almost positive its per day). They have something like 6.5k officers.

No they say they're using hollow point ammo to practice with that makes no sense to me. Especially when the Federal Gov't says they have no money and are cutting or trying to save money in the budget. Why would you purchase the most expensive rounds and not target ammo that you can get much cheaper for practice. Something doesn't add up.

Great post by Arik -- he hit it dead center.

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Gunner, Sabot Up!

Well it is always easy to spend somebody elses money

Actually, the price difference between duty ammo and practice ammo when buying in these quantities and under such a contract is little or nothing. It also allows for training and practice with the ammo used, so all characteristics are the same. Further, to ensure that the duty weapon works right with duty ammo is a BIG DEAL and cannot be done without shooting a lot. At least one well known expert recommends running 500 consecutive malfunction free rounds through a firearm before carrying it for real, which is a sound practice. I used to buy my own and do that with duty weapons. In 1993, when I was still in Illinois, I bought two cases of 9mm duty ammo for only $12 more each than for ball. Why on earth would I buy ball at that price point?

1000 rounds a year for training is not much. I've used more than that in a 3 day carbine course than included a half day of orientation/lecture at the start and regular instruction breaks. While military personnel will use a lot if downrange, most military folks other than in the really HSLD units will not shoot much in training. (To be fair, they train on things other than shooting that will also be critical, but the comparison is still valid.) If you consider that research done by the USMC cited to me by persons in the know showed that skill showed deterioration after 7 days of not shooting, 1000/year ain't jack. This is tin foil hattery at best.

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NHI, 10-8.

That is a good post Arik.

But surely it is not 100 rounds per day. 100 rounds per week sounds right though.

Even that is 34 Million rounds a year . For one city in one state that is a lot . Do you think they actually use their allocation every year though .

No, i doubt that every officer takes advantage of that

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Problem is the DHS uses 40 cal and 223, I need 22 RF.

I also think that people fail to realize that there are other countries that purchase ammo for their own uses, both recreational and defense. We are a capitalist country driven by profit. If you think that the products we make are solely for our use(sold only in the USA or US interests) are really not thinking globally. Manufacturers are operating at full capacity and the USA isn't the only one buying. And contracted orders from other countries(not just military) will get filled just like the distributors for places like Wally World or your local LGS. This is a global economy not just an American economy. As been previously stated, manufacturers have been running at high capacity for 10 years, but it's only since the last election that we've seen demand outpace supply as people(in America) panicked and have begun to hoard ammo. New gun owners have pushed ammo supplies to(almost) extinction. In time the interest will wane and we'll SLOWLY see an increase in supply as demand subsides. We might even see a decrease in prices, but I doubt it.
Checking on GunBot recently, the average price for 9mm(115gr-FMJ) or 40S&W is around $1.30/rnd. Other places show .75/rnd and up(IF they even have it in stock). Not much different for .223. This is, unfortunately, the new economy in recreational shooting sports.

When I started (BP academy, as a investigator puke trainee) introductory training was with Model 18s. Cheap and effective, no?

When I ran training and qualifications the norm was .38/.357. Under my tyrannical regime we did a LOT of ball and dummy work. Again, relatively cheap and effective. We still went through a lot of ammo, but the level of proficiency was pretty darned high with the old six shooters...

Initial (and remedial) training burns up a lot of ammo, and semiauto ammo is a lot more expensive than the old stuff was...

Various court decisions and policies require training and qualifications to be done with duty ammo. Some money can be saved with white box generic FMJs, but not all that much.

I don't know if anyone is using sub-caliber .22LR guns for these purposes, but if not, they ought to. Again, cheap and effective.

The old instructor reflexes like the plentiful ammo supply, but the taxpayer part of me wants smarter and more cost effective training.

The increasingly libertarian part of me wonders what kind of people we are hiring and training, and what their feckless "leaders" think they're up to.

Time to go hug my grandson now.

The last gun show I attended a couple months back, I had a conversation with one of the sales guys for a large ammo outfit. He told me the concern all of them in the industry had was with the government buying up all the ammo, and their inability to get any in the future.

Seems like Congress has a few questions about it now too.

And it's even hitting the news cycle here and there.

Then I keep hearing all these arguments defending the government contract, and saying this and that about how it's just normal gubmit consumption, and they need to practice, and they aren't really going to buy all that ammo, and so on and so forth.

Now I'm not much into the black helicopter crowd, and never bought into conspiracy theories. But it just seems a bit odd to me that a whole bunch of people supposedly in the know are getting pretty concerned, and the rest of us can't seem to find any ammo for ourselves anymore.

The only thing I would add is that the logistics of ordering and inventorying multiple types of ammo, making sure that the correct amounts of each are kept on-hand, and making sure that practice ammo isn't used for carry ammo in multiple departments outweigh the nearly insignificant difference in price of ammo ordered in these quantities.

They are not paying the same premium for hollow-point ammo as non-contract buyers.

You can add the FPS (Federal Protective Service) to that list. Those are the folks in charge of supervising the security of Federal buildings. Of course, every FPS inspector is over, in theory, a number of contract security officers. These officers are issued and qualify at least yearly with duty ammo. In my area, that is Federal 9mm HPs.

These security officers practice with hardball. Now, their ammo is supplied by their employers, but the cost goes back to the Federal government.

A police officer I knew was a former National Guardsman. They also had to qualify yearly with their weapons. He told me once they didn't shoot all of the issued ammo one year, so in order not to have their allotment cut back, they went to the range and simply fired it up. No aiming, just firing. Several soldiers were busy loading .45 mags, while others were shooting into the berm.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Perhaps I'm delusional, but I have a mental image of a warehouse like the one at the end of the film 'Raiders of The Lost Ark', and it's filled wall to wall, and floor to ceiling with ammo in all the calibers I'm seeking!

Train with what you carry I would imagine.

I think the point is that hollow point ammo is banned for international use, and therefore can only be used domestically.

Someone is anticipating a MAJOR crime wave domestically, or perhaps a domestic uprising - could it be in anticipation of disarming some folks?

Regardless of the reasons, I'm just hoping and praying that common calibers such as 9 mm and 45 ACP start showing up on shelves this summer. I have a training class coming up and I've had to suspend all my practice sessions just to make sure I have enough for the class. This is nuts!

I don't think that DHS goes into battle overseas, so why all the HP?

Maybe defending our borders? Each DNS operator gets 1000 lbs of ammo to tote along while on patrol.