I see a lot of ' IF's ' in your post...

Let me add one: IF the Federal Government wants to cut out your right to own a gun, and mandatory training is the law, they can easily change the training requirements and remove your right.


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Kirk / Spock 2020

uhm, no? I don't have a poll or a link. Do I need one? Where do I get one? Do I need a mandatory class to get one? Will the government find out if I do have one? Will the black helicopters circle my home if I have one?


I guess I'm in the 1% and on the list of those to be ignored.

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I'm here to make friends & influence people

Oh, wait a minute. Now I know what you are talking about. That was childish of me. ,

Here is a link to a nice Pole...

Google Image Result for http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NjiqlWNg5_Y/S8t7fuJWRpI/AAAAAAAAAAk/r7NJds5ttJM/s1600/61480226v.jpg

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Is it safe?

For a group of people so passionate about our Constitution, there seems to be a real lack of faith in the 'checks and balances' portion.

It's true that those who rely on the Constitution support their case at length, using language from the Constitution, specific quotes from founders and others from that period for supporting context, and provide current examples of government abuses. On the flip side, the argument is basically-- I'm afraid of idiots with guns and stray bullets in self defense shootings, so I support mandatory training. -- Okay... I get that. But is it a reality or fantasy that mandatory training is of measurable benefit for the idiot factor?

I have repeatedly asked those who support mandatory training to illustrate how GA permit holders are measurably more dangerous or have significantly more incidents than the border state of TN. And if so, were the increase in incidents reasonably preventable with mandatory training? No reply so far. You show to live in Michigan. Indiana is a border state. Indiana does not require training for a carry permit. Can you demonstrate that Indiana has significantly more stray bullets fired by permit holders in self defense, injuring or killing significantly more innocent bystanders than Michigan which has mandatory training? I don't know if there is or is not. But if someone really believes that mandatory training should be required, should they not have a strong basis in fact before placing mandates upon others?

Afraid of idiots- I'll use this one by Poodle as an example-- Why? I know people who shouldn't be trusted to tie their own shoe laces with out hanging them selves THATS why..

Yeah, I have known idiots too. If an idiot who should not be trusted to tie his shoelaces without hanging himself walks into a mandatory training class, does anyone really expect anything more than the same idiot to walk out a few hours later?

It's been my experience that the idiots Poodle is afraid of have a common ailment, they cannot or will not listen and learn. That's why they are idiots. They'll do enough to get by in a carry class, they always do. And in the very rare event anyone doesn't pass the test, does anyone expect a true idiot as Poodle describes to not carry anyway?

My position on this subject will not change because it is rooted in the Constitution. It a real document written by real people to protect real things in my life. I can examine countries without it and see significant differences. Is the fear of risk from lack of mandatory training real or fantasy?

Phil I don't disagree with your assessment or statement. (idiots are idiots and will remain idiots) I don't know where to look for your proof you want, I'm not even sure it exists frankly. I think we can agree that the type of people that will do bad things with a gun are not the type of people who will go get a legal CCW, permit, license or whatever you want to call it. They will stick a pistol in the waist band of their baggy *** pants and talk about putting a cap in someone's ***. They're thugs and thieves, they don't care what the law is because they have no intention of obeying it anyway.

Here's what I find ironic about this thread. Guys keep saying they don't want their "rights" infringed or trampled by the government. Well neither do I. BUT, the men that wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights WERE the government at the time. The current government doesn't share the same mentality as the forefathers and we have good cause to be afraid.

ladder13 used the word mandatory and it has caused a firestorm of controversy. I see what guys are afraid of with the idea of them being told they have to do something to keep or utilize a right that the original bill of rights laid forth.

Will mandatory training get rid of the idiots, nope. I still fear the guy with the pistol/gun who thinks he can brandish it about without thought of his actions or the consequences thereof. This is not the old west and we do not get to take the law into our own hands. Currently anyone can get their hands on a weapon whether its via legal or illegal means. Mandatory or voluntary classes aren't going to curtail that process at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think we'd all agree that what we want it to see the gun grabbers focus their attention on the people who will do bad things with guns. And since no one can predict the actions of others (that Tom Cruise movie was so cool because they could) this country should make the penalty for committing a crime with a weapon very severe.

Maybe a deterrent would be more effective than a restriction.

Agree, We already have some pretty good laws concerning weapons crimes. Now is the time we need to enforce them to the fullest extent. Not putting them in a jail with cable TV, weight rooms and other such things to make their stay more comfy. Just the essentials for survival. HARD labor is a good way to make most never want to go back. Most.

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Dum vivo cano

+1....We need Sheriff Joe Arpaio's (Maricopa County,AZ) example to be copied on a country-wide basis and at every level (local,state and federal). Put some teeth in "doing time".

Don

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Laus Deo! <><

I think training for concealed or open carry should be mandatory. If you purchase a handgun, and you're in a state that allows open and concealed carry, training comes with the purchase. In states with no open carry, training should be mandatory before your CCW is issued.

Agreed, not personally. Or on how they spell, structure a sentence, where they live, etc etc

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Sure you did

Whoa! Hold on, the thread just took a hard turn!!

Absolutely 110% agree.

What kind of message do we send criminals when a thug sticks up a store at gunpoint and we give him 12 months PROBATION?

I've been in prisons (working, not a resident) and these guys got it made! Color TV, private rooms, meals, health and dental, libraries and fitness centers....

And the worst part? They have an ATTITUDE. They don't CARE. They are still cocky and I can just feel they know they will get out and do it again.

Prison should dang near break a man. Make him pay for his crime. Take him down a notch.


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Kirk / Spock 2020

Some of you are just pulling out small things out of a post and running wild while ignoring everything else. Laws keep those who are afraid of punishment from doing things. Speed limits are great examples of that.

And some do jump through the easy hoops to get a permit and are still idiots, still break the law, and pay the price. Some guy not to long ago got his brain scrambled by a glock thanks to a police officer after carrying to a bar (while high) getting drunk, then getting into a fight.

Amigo, they're slaying the messenger aren't they?

I too am appalled at the poll results but cannot come up with one good reason why you shouldn't have posted it!

My biggest gripe is the smirk on you-know-who's face!

The NRA course took 8 hours and included the firing of a revolver and semi automatic. Even though there was only two of us taking it that day, and both of us had been shooting for the better part of 50 years, we still tried to glean all the information put forth. Gun safety is very important to help promote a sport that is sometimes looked upon as questionable.
I thought that Missouri required an 8 hour course. It was fun anyhow. I love blowing up other peoples targets.
Peace,
Gordon

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better have that checked

The Constitution gives a right to bear, not a right to conceal. Too many folks here mix them up.

What do these two year old threads rise from the ashes?

Anyone that didn't get training on the legalities and responsibilities is a fool. Every bullet comes with at least one lawyer and there goes your life, dead or alive.

Why are some here so passionate about not needing training.
Learning to handle a weapon is not by osmosis---neither is driving a car.
Youse guys who are not in favor of training are kinda stuck out in the cold and need to breath deeply and get some oxygen to the brain.
But I love ya ! don't want to be around anybody that has not been trained to handle a weapon or drive a car.
Blessings

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TEXAS, by GOD

To address your question in bold above, carrying ccw in public carries a higher degree of awareness than one might be required at home. Things like knowing not to escalate a confrontation, suck up your ego and move on; not be some sort of hero in a commercial robbery incident; learning about situational awareness; Laws and legalities; what happens next after you pull the trigger...
Though many of use see this as common sense, these are some things that need to be taught to non gun enthusiasts.

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Memory of Randy Freas-Rimfired

Since this great state of mine requires a lengthily process to obtain a LTC. including a safety course I would like to see a fair amount of range time at least enough that the person next to you knows which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of.. On occasion I have been at the range and some guy or gal next to me after firing a full mag will swing the muzzle to the side covering other shooters and not only check the breach but will also look directly into the barrel.. So Yes I think training should be mandatory

I agree with your assessment and I agree that I see that as common sense and understand that my perception of common sense and someone elses may be different - but my point was - why only require for CCW - many states have open carry laws so why wouldn't they be required as well and safety classes for those who buy firearms to use at home for self defence, why would they not be required to know basic gun safety rules?

Pete

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Don't tread on me

Maybe what they should do is make the mfg. of firearms put a coded trigger lock on the gun along with the manual in the box. The manual will have all the required safety information located throughout the manual (as it does now). At the end of the manual, there will be a test of the safety information that is contained within. Each correct response to the test will provide you with a code number that needs to used in sequence to open the trigger lock. That way all firearm purchasers will have to read the safety information (and hopefully retain it) in order to get the firearm unlocked in the first place. Not the end all, but a start to get people to understand that it is extremely important to know how to safely handle a firearm. That way all firearms owners will get some training, not just the CCW owners.

Pete

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Don't tread on me

Mike,

I support free range time........
With qualified instructors, paid for by the BATF Div. of the IRS with NFA tax stamp and ammunition tax dollars.

I do not support free range chickens....From personal observation of same.

Oh, BTW, please forgive my poor literary skills as well.


Su Amigo,
Dave

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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

I have no opinion to post on this but I just had to post on a two year old thread.

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Quando omni flunkus moritati.

Hey, I remember this thread! It's been a while.....

My opinion has not changed. Mandating training for a right? Absolutely not.

I can't understand how people would want to impose more restrictions on the second amendment.

What about states that don't require a permit for concealed carry? What I infer is that people who think training should be mandatory feel that these states should then be required to only allow carry by permit holders..... and these permit holders must undergo training.

So, that would be going from constitutional carry to permit and training mandated before you get to exercise your God-given / constitutional right.

Yeah, that is a step in the right direction for the second amendment .

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- The Federalist #46 -

Here in Vermont we don't need a permit to carry concealed, no training needed, and there doesn't seem to be a problem. Except in the eyes of the liberal transplant anti's who moved here from other states, even though they can site no specific problems in Vermont. I do agree at least 8 hours of training is a good idea, but I would oppose making it a requirement, because as others pointed out, the anti's would leverage the requirement into a way to infringe, as they so grossly did in Massachusetts.

Gov't training is 'bout as useless as this day-lite savings time....

Kinda like newly mint'd drivers.

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As the ol Chief said, "The gov'mint is the only one that believes you can cut a
foot of'n the top of a blanket, sew it back on to the bottom and have a longer blanket


Dis-claimer;
I am not affiliated with any organized political party......


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"IN GOD WE TRUST"

And a class. American history. Two semesters.