Smith & Wesson Forum

Advertise With Us Search
Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > General Topics > The Lounge

Notices

The Lounge A Catch-All Area for NON-GUN topics.
PUT GUN TOPICS in the GUN FORUMS.
Keep it Family Friendly. See The Rules for Banned Topics!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-23-2013, 12:17 AM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
US Veteran
Absent Comrade
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 20,361
Likes: 24,260
Liked 16,154 Times in 7,408 Posts
Default 40MM Guns Origin?

I saw the pic of the destroyer in another topic and wonder when the 40mm batteries first appeared on warships.

Was the Swedish-developed Bofors the first effective 40mm? Did other nations use it first?

The 20mm Oerlikon (sp?) ?

Sailors?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-23-2013, 01:15 AM
jlrhiner's Avatar
jlrhiner jlrhiner is offline
US Veteran
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Arnold, Missouri
Posts: 4,818
Likes: 7,179
Liked 6,595 Times in 2,117 Posts
Default

I think the US adopted it in late '39 or '40, actually beginning domestic production a few months before it was legal. (alls fair, as they say)
They're were several designs of small cannon used by the US Navy from the civil war forward. I remember seeing a 1 1/2" manually loaded Gatling gun mounted on board a cruiser around the time of the Spanish American war. Remember at that time the boogie man was a fast torpedo boat, not a plane.
__________________
James L. "Jim" Rhiner
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-23-2013, 08:20 AM
Stevie Stevie is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: OK. U.S.A.
Posts: 1,099
Likes: 5
Liked 296 Times in 189 Posts
Default

Before the 40mm came into use during WWII..the Navy used .50 mg and some sort of 1.1" quad that apparently wasn't very good or very safe to shoot.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-23-2013, 02:49 PM
Cpo1944's Avatar
Cpo1944 Cpo1944 is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: winston salem nc
Posts: 1,740
Likes: 3,253
Liked 1,766 Times in 667 Posts
Default

By the 1960`s when I was in all of those small guns were gone. The smallest fixed mount I saw was a 3inch/50 cal.
I was told by a WW2 vet the navy learned that the small stuff was ineffective on Kamikazes- they had to be literary blown to pieces and shot out of the air, and not much less than a 5 incher could do that.
My WW2 era destroyer was modernized in 1960 . That`s when the small stuff was removed.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #5  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:30 PM
rwsmith's Avatar
rwsmith rwsmith is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: (outside) Charleston, SC
Posts: 31,000
Likes: 41,665
Liked 29,250 Times in 13,830 Posts
Default They quickly spread

It was developed and quickly spread to other countries, even Germany and Japan captured and used them.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:32 PM
LVSteve's Avatar
LVSteve LVSteve is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lost Wages, NV
Posts: 20,058
Likes: 24,583
Liked 29,381 Times in 10,930 Posts
Default

Funny thing is a lot of those smaller guns have reappeared to deal with the small boat threat.

The UK had a 40mm anti-aircraft gun commonly known as the "Multiple Pop-Pom". This weapon had a much lower muzzle velocity than the Bofors but had the advantage of large magazines so a guy did not have to stand there feeding clips all the time. there is a good write up here. QF 2 pounder naval gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Oerliken had a chequered career in that the Royal Navy was very reluctant to adopt it. This gun was rugged but had a slow rate of fire due to its blowback operation. Variants of it appeared as the MG FF in German fighters but it is generally thought that the Hispano and Breda 20mm cannons were better designs. The UK used captured Bredas whenever they could in North Africa and the Med. Of course, the Germans had the MG213 nearly ready for production at the end of WWII and that spawned a large number of weapons in the West such as the British ADEN, French DEFA, US M39 and the Oerlikon KCA.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #7  
Old 05-23-2013, 05:09 PM
cmort666's Avatar
cmort666 cmort666 is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rocky River, OH, USA
Posts: 9,451
Likes: 1,271
Liked 9,184 Times in 3,621 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie View Post
Before the 40mm came into use during WWII..the Navy used .50 mg and some sort of 1.1" quad that apparently wasn't very good or very safe to shoot.
The 1.1" wasn't particularly dangerous to the gunners, but it had a VERY low rate of fire. The reason was the nature of the action which was designed to minimize stress on deck mountings, and to safely feed and fire the VERY sensitively fused projectiles thought necessary for shooting down fabric covered biplanes.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-23-2013, 05:29 PM
DWalt's Avatar
DWalt DWalt is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: South Texas & San Antonio
Posts: 33,631
Likes: 241
Liked 29,144 Times in 14,091 Posts
Default

A very few U. S. vessels were equipped with 1.1" AA guns throughout WWII, but most were given the deep 6 very early on in the war by replacing them with the Bofors 40mm, which was far more effective. The Oerlikon 20mm was also fairly effective as AA if the enemy planes got in close enough.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:33 PM
cmort666's Avatar
cmort666 cmort666 is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rocky River, OH, USA
Posts: 9,451
Likes: 1,271
Liked 9,184 Times in 3,621 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
A very few U. S. vessels were equipped with 1.1" AA guns throughout WWII, but most were given the deep 6 very early on in the war by replacing them with the Bofors 40mm, which was far more effective. The Oerlikon 20mm was also fairly effective as AA if the enemy planes got in close enough.
The 1.1" had a very interesting action with a very mild recoil. The problem was that it was VERY complicated for the result achieved, from a requirement that was essentially obsolete by the time the gun was fielded.

The 1.1" was designed to deal with aircraft which by the time it entered service, only the British were using. The projectile was designed to detonate upon impact with a doped fabric fuselage or wing, an important consideration... if we were attacked by Fairey Swordfish. There was no problem getting a conventional impact fuse to detonate when it struck a Val or a Kate.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:55 PM
Cyrano's Avatar
Cyrano Cyrano is offline
US Veteran
Absent Comrade
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 13,500
Liked 6,743 Times in 2,526 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmort666 View Post
The 1.1" had a very interesting action with a very mild recoil. The problem was that it was VERY complicated for the result achieved, from a requirement that was essentially obsolete by the time the gun was fielded.

.
I think the 1.1 was a Maxim design; a toggle joint type of operation, very like the MG 08 of WW I, just bigger. It was reliable, but very complicated, heavy, and had a slow rate of fire.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-24-2013, 05:43 AM
cmort666's Avatar
cmort666 cmort666 is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rocky River, OH, USA
Posts: 9,451
Likes: 1,271
Liked 9,184 Times in 3,621 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
I think the 1.1 was a Maxim design; a toggle joint type of operation, very like the MG 08 of WW I, just bigger. It was reliable, but very complicated, heavy, and had a slow rate of fire.
You're thinking about the "Pom Pom" gun, which is basically just the Maxim action scaled up to 37mm and 40mm.

The 1.1" gun was a LOT more complicated than the "Pom Pom", using a system of springs and counterweights to produce a counterrecoiling action to reduce stresses on the ammo and mount. It's a very interesting system, but nowhere near worth the effort to get what was achieved. It also traded reduced recoil forces for a REALLY slow rate of fire. That's why they had to be used on a quadruple mount.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-24-2013, 02:17 PM
Coldshooter's Avatar
Coldshooter Coldshooter is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairbanks AK
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 314
Liked 2,521 Times in 708 Posts
Default

Sweden, Britain, USA, Germany and Japan Bofors 40 mm/56 (1.57") Model 1936
U.S. 40mm Bofors Anti-Aircraft (WWII) - Inert-Ord.Net

These both have some interesting pictures. I learned quite a bit about 40mm projectiles when my Father in Law passed away and I found a box with 10 of them in the garage plus a Japanese Anti Tank Grenade. They had went through 40 years of summer winter in central Indiana. They were guite likely quite unstable.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-24-2013, 07:38 PM
cmort666's Avatar
cmort666 cmort666 is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rocky River, OH, USA
Posts: 9,451
Likes: 1,271
Liked 9,184 Times in 3,621 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshooter View Post
They were guite likely quite unstable.
The Japanese used picric acid (which they called "shimose") as a filling for artillery shells and grenades.

Picric acid is EXTREMELY reactive with metal, forming crystals which are very sensitive to mechanical shock. Famous British weapons writer Ian V. Hogg goes into some detail about his
experiences with unexploded Japanese ordnance in the Doubleday book "Grenades and Mortars".

My aunt's boyfriend was in New Guinea(?) during WWII. He said that they frequently came across boxes of Japanese grenades and mortar shells that had rotted and disentegrated in the humid climate. They would throw a loop of rope to the far side of the ordnance and slowly drag them across the floor or ground. If they didn't explode, they were safe enough to pick up and dispose of.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-24-2013, 09:39 PM
dswancutt dswancutt is offline
Member
40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin? 40MM Guns Origin?  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: nebraska
Posts: 987
Likes: 1,406
Liked 936 Times in 372 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack oconnor View Post
By the 1960`s when I was in all of those small guns were gone. The smallest fixed mount I saw was a 3inch/50 cal.
I was told by a WW2 vet the navy learned that the small stuff was ineffective on Kamikazes- they had to be literary blown to pieces and shot out of the air, and not much less than a 5 incher could do that.
My WW2 era destroyer was modernized in 1960 . That`s when the small stuff was removed.
Most of the small guns where gone by the 60's due to the fact that they where almost useless against jet aircraft. That and at the time, the US military was in the "missals can handle everything" phase.
To the OP question, I think that post the battles of the Coral Sea and Midway, Navy ships where retrofitted with the 20mm and 40mm guns when they came in for major repairs. If I recall, the surviving pre-war carriers lost some of the larger guns to reduce weight for more of the 20 & 40 mm guns.

Here is a Wikipedia link to the USS Enterprise. They list how the armament increased during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(CV-6)

Last edited by dswancutt; 05-24-2013 at 09:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
40mm slide over 9mm frame? captorpedo Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 6 05-06-2015 05:10 AM
40mm to 9mm kado3 Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 3 06-30-2014 03:59 AM
40mm scope too big? DelFuego Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 17 04-03-2012 06:30 PM
3x9 40mm or 42mm scope desakto Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 1 08-20-2010 01:03 AM
WTS: Omega Seamaster Chronometer 40mm wings442 Accessories/Misc - For Sale or Trade 1 05-28-2010 06:31 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:26 AM.


Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)