I think what would be best is for him to buy one of each of these recommended pistols plus a few million rounds of ammo...then I will do exhaustive range testing for him. It may take me several years, but I will be tireless and diligent in my efforts to find just the right gun for him.

I voted for the CZs. I have put more rounds through my CZ85 Combat than any other 9mm.

To help you understand CZ’s model names, “B” means the model has a Colt Series 80 style firing pin safety and a roll pin retaining the firing pin. Both those changes were for the worse. “85” means a 75 with ambidextrous safeties. Pre-B CZ75s and CZ85 Combats have a 1911 style stop plate retaining the firing pin and no Series 80 firing pin plunger. CZ offers a nicely polished blue finish for a few dollars more than their ugly painted finish. Stores seldom stock CZ’s better finishes. Usually you have to order them. When I bought my CZ blued, satin nickel and ugly paint were all the same price yet the stores still only stocked ugly painted CZs. Prior to the buying frenzy that started in last November CZ USA and CDNN sold new CZ 75/85 15 round factory magazines for $20. It’s likely they will again, or at least they’ll get back down to $25.

CZ’s Cadet .22 LR upper is one of the best .22 conversion kits despite being moderately priced at $250 to $300. Rather than trying to make a .22 LR move a large slide it has a small steel slide moving within the rear of what looks like a slide. Consequently it retains the weight and balance of the center fire slide. A .22 conversion is a worthwhile training/plinking accessory. A Cadet conversion would bump him over his $600 limit but it can be purchased later. Besides, every one needs a .22 handgun and the Cadet is a good one.

Regarding your exclusion of 3rd generation autos, all S&Ws made after about 1989 have a lifetime warranty whether or not you are the original owner. S&W still makes production runs of 3rd generation autos to fill police department orders. It will be a long time before it’s difficult to get one repaired.

The CZ 75 i had was a real beater.
Allmost no finish left on it, dings and scratches all over.
But dead accurate.
And it fit my hands pefectly.

I also like the Ruger P95. I have one of the older ones, bought when it first came out for around $230 new. It's the P95/DC with the slide-mounted decocker lever. Unlike S&W autos I can actually reach the decocker. I believe current P95s have a more rubbery textured frame and an accessory rail - the original frames were a little "slick" feeling.

One thing that I really like about the P95 is that it is easier to rack the slide than most any other full-size auto I know of. Part of it is the big fat slide that is easy to grip but it also seems like the springs are softer than other autos. A lot of women that I've taken shooting like it because of that - many times it's the only gun (that's bigger than a .22) that they can operate.

The CZ75B 9mm. Arguably the best all steel 9mm semi auto for the price.
Proven reliability and support,accurate,comfortable and intuitive grip,cycles any ammo,available with either decocker or safety,ability to carry cocked and locked,numerous finishes.

Hmmm...that is news to me. I don't have a manual for a Gen3 pistol, but all my other S&W manuals say the warranty is for the original owner only. They will repair guns made after 1989, but as far as I know, the coverage under warranty is for the original owner only.

It would be great if that was the case...however, a Gen3 still doesn't meet his criteria unless we could find one that is new, which is pretty unlikely. (It's not my criteria, but his.) That's OK...if during my search I come across a great Gen3 pistol, I know it will find a home.

92FS. the most comfortable double stack I've ever shot and accurate to a fault. Works with everything I've fed it.

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Quando omni flunkus moritati.

Based upon your criteria and my experience I would suggest the Beretta. I would choose the 96FS in 40 S&W as I am not a big fan of 9 mm, but that is my preference.

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I am a sheep dog!
1601 (ret)

Reconsider. Please reconsider. DA/SA is a counterproductive solution in search of a problem, foisted on shooters mostly by ignorant LE and MIL bosses who should have disciplined for incompetence/dereliction, then had a guardianship filed on them since they have demonstrated a lack of ability take care of themselves.

Safety is not improved by this mechanical abomination, and shooting ability is made worse. I had to carry one for a while (2 different models, the 1076 and 4566) and they were pigs looking for lipstick.

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NHI, 10-8.

Im also gonna speak out for the Ruger P95. Cant deny that at it's price point its gotta be one of the best values out there, hands down. Everything you hear about them is true: Accurate, reliable, "built like a tank" tough... all for around $300 bucks. I vouche for all of that, I own 2 P-series pistols myself (P90 & P345). It may not be the prettiest or thinnest weapon out there, but it does what its supposed to do and then some. Don't get me wrong, the other handguns listed are all outstanding as well, but for those who are on a budget or who are "financially responsible" you just cant go wrong with a P95.

I’m not sure whether to give Doug’s post a “LIKE” or slap him up the side of the head for changing the topic. It could even be a prosecutable thread hi-jacking.

I’ll settle for an observation. For a few years an army firearms instructor attended our matches. We have a rack of approx. 8” dia. steel plates that can be reset with a cord. With either an issue M9 or his personal 1911 .45 from 10-12 yards he could draw on a timer’s beep and lay them all down in under two seconds.

This

CZ 75 Compact PCR. Fits my hand perfectly. Better trigger than I had on either the H&K P30 or the Beretta 92. Also the 92 was too big in the butt for my taste.

HK P2000 V2 (LEM). No external safeties, high capacity, constant trigger pull. Standard issue (in .40 S&W) to CBP Officers.

I happen to agree with him. DA/SA is the worst thing they ever did to a semi auto pistol. And there are VERY few people that can shoot a DA pistol that well. Especially those new to them.

Now if they ALL had a DA trigger like a good ole S&W revolver things might be different. That's why I like Sig's Enhanced Elite series, PX4, or the FN FNP.

CZ triggers suck and a regular Sig isn't much better if at all and the Beretta is right up there with them.

Can you tell I'm not a DA/SA guy? I tried to like them but just couldn't.

But from the OP's list, I would take PX4 any day.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

Well...we all have our various opinions. You are entitled to yours.

You don't have to agree, but I bet you had no problems understanding it.

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NHI, 10-8.

On that we can certainly agree...it was clear, unambiguous, and emphatic.

another for the FNX 9. Have around 600 rounds through it with 0 problems. FN also gives you 2 extra mags with it. Which means you get to blaze through ammo very fast!

I didn't notice this on the first read-through. Considering that the Beretta is his only handgun experience it is the obvious choice. If he's as dead-set on DA/SA as you make him sound, there's really no reason to change. That said....

Doug M pretty well sums it up. The Walther style of DA/SA that the Beretta uses is pretty ingenious, but excessively complicated. If you only want to shoot casually at the range it's okay, but there are just too many options for its use as a self defense gun.

That's my opinion, and apparently Doug M's and Kanewpadle's. Now here are some facts. We'll compare the operation of the traditional DA/SA of the Beretta, with the operation of a DAO (double-action only) such as a Glock. (I know that the Glock is not a true DAO as racking the slide puts the mainspring at a half-cock position - I call it a 1-1/2 action - but operationally it's virtually the same.)

With the traditional DA/SA, after inserting a magazine and chambering a round here are your choices:

If the safety was off when the round was chambered, you may:

• Leave the gun as it is, hammer cocked and safety off (not advisable unless you’re immediately ready to shoot.)
• Or decock the gun with the decocker and leave the safety on.
• Or decock the gun with the decocker and take the safety off.
• Or slowly decock the gun (to avoid noise) by using the decocker, and carefully lowering the hammer with your thumb or pinched between finger and thumb and leave the safety off.
• Or decock the gun by using the decocker and carefully lowering the hammer and put the safety on.
• Or decock the gun by pulling the trigger (not recommended), and carefully lowering the hammer and leave the safety off.
• Or decock the gun by pulling the trigger and carefully lowering the hammer and put the safety on.

If the safety was on when you chambered a round, the hammer will follow the slide and the gun will be on-safe with the hammer down.

• You can then leave it as it is, safety on and hammer down.
• Or disengage the safety and leave the hammer down.
• Or disengage the safety and cock the hammer with your thumb (only if you’re immediately ready to shoot).

Then to fire:

• If the hammer is cocked and the safety is off, pull the trigger in single-action mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is off, pull the trigger in double-action mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is on, disengage the safety and pull the trigger in DA mode.
• If the hammer is down and the safety is on, disengage the safety, cock the hammer manually and pull the trigger in SA mode.

Once you’ve fired your first shot, you may then do any of the things in the first part above (1-7), and not necessarily the same thing you did before. Or you can shoot again in SA mode.



With the double-action only auto, once you’ve loaded a round your choices are then:

• Keep your finger off the trigger and don’t shoot.
• Or pull the trigger with a long DAO stroke and shoot.

Same choices once you’ve fired your first shot. Finger off the trigger and don’t shoot, or pull the trigger DAO and shoot.


If I’ve counted correctly, after chambering a round in the traditional DA/SA there are ten possible actions to take to NOT fire, and four TO fire.

With the DAO auto there is only the option to fire, or not to fire.


I know which batch of instructions I'd rather try to remember in a self-defense situation. Just plinking at the range? Whatever.

It is his decision and choice...but, I intend to print this out (or at least, let him read through it online) and make him aware of ALL the opinions expressed. I'm also going to strongly encourage him to shoot what we can find to rent (although the choices around here aren't unlimited) before buying...and of course, he can shoot the guns I have. Worst case, if he buys something he isn't happy with, he can sell or trade it...maybe even to me!

Didn't see the omission of SIGs and H&K, but either of those would be my first choice nowadays.
Of the rest, Ruger P95! I have one and its gone past 7,500 rounds with only two problems attributed to ammo (Egyptian ball, lovely stuff @.@!). It's currently waiting on new recoil springs, then it goes back into rotation, and when the CCW permits appear it might even be my carry piece! Dale

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"Long live the S&W 3rd. Gen.!"

I had a Ruger P95...and the only reason I don't have it now is that it didn't feel comfortable in my small hands. He has big hands, though, so it may fit him just fine. And at the price they usually sell for, he'll have money left over to buy extra magazines and ammo. It all depends on if he likes the gun, of course.

I voted "other" because I was thinking Sig 220 or 226. Then I read the first post and found out these Sigs aren't a choice...... Never mind. (I'd still choose a 226 or 220.)

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Tom
"Panem et Circenses"

I've never had a P226, but I have a P229...it's a great gun. I like SIGs in general. I've also had a P220, but I sold it.

I voted in the poll based purely on the thread title, before having read the other conditions in your first post.

That having been the case, I voted for the CZ, specifically the CZ75/85, as I own and have extensively fired a pair of each of these (2 of each, 4 total.) In my 21+ years of having owned and fired these pistols, I can't recall one single incident of any of them ever malfunctioning in any way.

Additionally, in terms of my recommending them to an unknown user, without any knowledge of that users physical characteristics (again, before reading your first, or subsequent, posts which clarified this) the CZs came easily to my mind as they offer, IMO, the best shaped grip, which is most likely to be easily held by a wide variety of shooters, while still holding a relatively large capacity magazine within that grip frame.

Another nice feature of the CZ (at least the 75/85 series) is their ability to be carried cocked and locked. Should the owner decide that DA/SA isn't all it's cracked up to be, he can utilize this condition one cocked and locked mode. It's kinda like 2 pistols in one.

A previous posters point about the myriad ways that a DA/SA pistol may be manipulated is somewhat valid. Some would opine that options are a good thing, keeping in mind that the end user should familiarize himself with all of these options, and then select the one that he finds best for him, and thereafter only use that method...which eliminates the potential confusion the poster hinted at.

Lastly, the CZs have always been very affordable. I haven't priced them recently, but the last I looked they were very competitive, and accessories always seemed fairly abundant, and affordable as well.

Now that I have read more about your (or rather, your friend's) needs, I can certainly understand that the Beretta would seem a very good choice, seeing as how you say he has large hands (the Beretta being a large pistol, this is the reason I didn't initially recommend it, without knowing the specific details), and he has some experience with the Beretta.

Tim

MR9-DA/SA It's similar to SW99 Specifications

I voted for the Beretta 92fs. It is the smoothest handgun I have ever fired, never misses a beat no matter what cheap ammo I run through it. I can't complain about any of the Ruger series either, good guns, a bit heavy but good shooters.

I've never done that with mine. Thousands of rounds through it. Never had any issue - FTE, FTE, etc - precisely ZERO issues. I totally recommend the Beretta 92FS.

That said; a brother of mine has the Ruger SA/DA (P89 is it?), well, he's never, ever even cleaned his in all these years (nuts right?) and brags about that. Totally nuts in my book But it always works...

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But then, what do I know?

Many here are recommending the 92FS and the CZ. I have experience with the 92 as well as the Cougar.

A plus with the 92 is you can change out the slide and barrel assembly to end up with a .22 or .40S&W or .357SIG as well as 9mm on the same frame. Mine has everything covered except for .357SIG.

The P226 SIG can do the same thing as well.

I have no experience with the other listed options.

LTC

Can you even buy a quality non-polymer auto for $600 or less these days? My recommendation would be to keep dropping change in the piggy bank until you can afford a Sig P229.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

It is difficult to find a metal frame semi these days for $600 or less. This thread has mentioned some makes/models that I have no experience with, and will certainly explore...if I can find them locally. He doesn't mind ordering a gun, but he wants to hold it in his hand (at least the same model) before he does. That may be a problem with some models...finding one in a shop locally.

We discussed this thread over coffee this morning, and my brother-in-law is leaning toward the Beretta 92FS/M9. I've seen them previously in gun shops for around $600 new, and Academy Sports has a 92FS on its website for $600. Gun Genie has a M9 for an average price of $650 through dealers in my area...which is the way I'm going to encourage him to go, if he finally decides on a 92FS/M9, since Gun Genie has a lifetime warranty, and Beretta's warranty is limited to 3 years (1 initially, plus 2 if you register) and their CS is not the best.

I've also been watching the Taurus PT92 thread that is going on here now...it may be worth having him take a look at that model. I wouldn't ordinarily recommend a Taurus, based on my experience, but the PT92 seems to be the most reliable gun they make. Plus, if he buys it from Gun Genie, they have their own lifetime warranty...I know Taurus does too, but their CS is (or was) very bad in my experience. Gun Genie's average price for the stainless model is $585 through gun dealers in my area....Academy has them listed for $380 (blue) which is a lot less, but then you have to deal with Taurus CS if you have a problem. Since there is very little price difference between the Taurus and Beretta from Gun Genie, if he goes that route he might as well get the Beretta.

Other than that, when it comes to a DA/SA pistol, SIG is my favorite...and I agree, he should kick in a few more dollars and get a P229...or a P228, without a rail (I don't like rails on my guns) but it's his money and his gun.

He could buy a used SIG and send it in, and they will strip it down, clean it, replace all the maintenance parts and springs, and install new night sights for $145. It still won't have the warranty, but it should function with no problem after that, since they also function test it before returning it. (Does S&W offer anything like that for the Gen3 guns?)

There are still the poly framed guns to consider. I like being a personal gun shopper...it could be my new career!

SP2022 Sig or CZ P07. Both are dead reliable and accurate, good capacity, light, and comfortable to shoot. They also fit my hand really well. Both are readily available under $500 in these parts (Texas).

I have had and do like the SP2022...my quibbles with that model are very minor (like, I don't care for the take down lever; it's very sharp - or mine was - where you push it in, on the RH side of the gun; looks like they could have made it solid, or very well rounded.) This particular SIG with the small grip fits my hand better than any other SIG other than the e2 grips. My brother-in-law, though, has monster size gorilla hands...so "small" isn't something he needs in a grip. My only other quibble is that you only get one magazine with the gun, and SIG magazines are expensive. Of course, what isn't these days?

Difficult but not impossible... The CZ 75 line depending on model, finish and features can be had for less than $500.00 when available from several vendors. I've dealt with Angus at CZ Customs for awhile now and have a 2075 Rami on order. You'll have to wait but in my estimation it's well worth it.

686 loaded with 130g +p rounds.

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Carpriver.

Try looking at the Springfield XD 9mm 4'' service model 9mm. It's a real nice weapon to carry and too shoot I have one and I carry it and shoot it at the local range and shoots amazing. I also had installed is the Powder River Precision easy trigger kit that replaces the stock trigger kit (7lb) pull to a amazing 4lb pull. I never had a problem with since owning this weapon.

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Shoot like a pro!

I've owned a couple (XD and XDm) and they are good pistols. They aren't DA/SA, though, so they don't meet his desired criteria.

I'm going to encourage him to shoot some SA pistols (like 1911s) or some striker fired pistols (like M&Ps) as a point of comparison. He can shoot mine, or we can rent some if there is something he wants to shoot that I don't have. I don't know if he will change his mind, but right now he's pretty focused on DA/SA...I just want to encourage him to try a few other types. At the end of the day, though, it is up to him.

Update: well, he bought a handgun. His final choice surprised me, but...it was his choice, and not one that I fault him for making, at all.

He bought a S&W M&P 45 Full Size.

Not DA/SA, not metal, not 9mm...so, basically nothing like his original criteria. However, it is a very solid choice, and so far, he is very happy with it.

He can always buy more...and different...

Agreed--it is a very good choice. I've got one in .40 that I really like. For its intended use, it's probably better than any of the original candidates.