LOST $1500.ON A SCAM INTERNET SALE*************************************

ebrem · #1 07-07-2013, 02:41 PM

Hello

I was in contacted by seller of a revolver which I was interested in buying, he contacted me asking me if I was interested in one he had for sale. He forwarded photos, price, (very well priced) and did not send his phone # or never did.

I was rushed to leave for a couple of weeks, so I sent him 2 US Postal Money Orders, had my FFL Dealer email him his FFL, which he (seller) asked to be delivered this way. He said he was an FFL dealer.

I found the photos of this revolver (Identical photos) and serial# on Face Book. This gun is owned by another person in his collection posted by him on his Face Book Blog..
It was then obvious to me that he lifted the photos sent them to me etc.etc.etc.
I emailed him and confronted him and told him this is interstate fraud, and this will be investigated, etc.. Five minutes later after I sent this email today he shut down his email.
He will be cashing the Money Orders tomorrow (Monday).
I know I will be contacting the Post Office but is there any other resource.

Can anyone make any suggestions as to what I can do, not what I should have done, I knew I SHOULD have done all the correct steps to take in the first place, I knew better.
Greed got ahold of me, that good price etc..
Please help, if you can.
Thank you.

VM · #2 07-07-2013, 02:53 PM

If I were in your shoes, I'd contact the Local Police Dept. and talk to Chief of Police and also Post Master of the city where you sent the Money order.

Did this person answer your ad on the Forum for MANURHIN MR 73 ? Are they a Forum member?

rags · #3 07-07-2013, 02:55 PM

Am I missing something? Do you have his FFL #, or does your FFL have it??

k22fan · #4 07-07-2013, 03:02 PM

Most police outfits answer the phone 24/7. I’d call the postal inspectors NOW and ask if they can help. 1-877-876-2455

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/c...s/phoneus.aspx

Hopefully some of this forum’s LEOs will have better advise, but get the ball rolling. How do you know the scammer has received your money orders but not cashed them yet? A stop payment can be placed on most other types of checks and money orders. Maybe that can be done with postal money orders also.

4506517 · #5 07-07-2013, 03:05 PM

Wow, man I am sorry to hear that. As others have suggested, contact your local law enforcement and generate a report. That way the report becomes the documented basis for pursuing other avenues with other agencies. I would also contact the post office. They need to be aware that there are postal money orders being redeemed in connection with a felony crime (obtaining property by false pretense). I would possibly also contact the BATFE, but in my experience they are WAY less than helpful. In fact, way less than helpful might be giving them too much credit.

I would also post all the seller's information you have in order to prevent someone else from falling victim to the same scheme.

linde · #6 07-07-2013, 03:09 PM

I would also give my FFL a heads-up as soon as possible and keep him in the loop.

Russ

LVSteve · #7 07-07-2013, 03:26 PM

Internet scams involving lifted pictures are becoming more common. Go onto Cars.com and look at some of the high end cars. You will quickly find that the pictures do not match the location of the alleged seller. Type in that make model and year and hey presto you find it on a dealer's website in another state. When I was looking for a particular car in 2011 I found a few of these scams and called them out.

bluegrassarms · #8 07-07-2013, 03:30 PM

Postal inspectors is the way to go. By using USPS money orders he's committed a felony, and they are the only people likely to take action IMO.

Call IMMEDIATELY. There is no stop payment on a money order, that's kind of the point of them, but they may be able to flag them in their system or take other time sensitive action if they choose to investigate.

I doubt ATF will help b/c I doubt this person is a FFL (and no gun was really transferred). He claimed to be one to you but it sounds as if you never got a FFL license from him or a FFL #. If you have a number or get one in the future you want to verify ATF maintains a public site to check to make sure a FFL is current and valid.

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

What was the email domain? If it was a yahoo/google etc. they may have a fraud reporting option where you could file. Even though those emails are somewhat anonymous, they will have IP data that could be traced.

Strato · #9 07-07-2013, 03:47 PM

Did you send the M/Os to a physical address or a PO box? Did you leave them blank or fill in his name? Unless he has a fake ID to cash them it's likely his real name. I have canceled a money order before that was apparently lost in the mail. They charged me 12% and refunded the rest. It came back a couple months later as undeliverable and I shredded it.

blujax01 · #10 07-07-2013, 03:53 PM

You can also google his city or town and the words "Police Dept". Call the no emergency number and they may go visit. I had the same thing happen on ebay. The cops visited the guy and called me from his house. I told him in front of the police that if i had the item in 48 hours I would drop the charges.

It worked out fine.

S&W45Colt · #11 07-07-2013, 05:34 PM

I'm sorry that happened to you. That stinks. I despise how a few screw-ups make people have to be distrustful of others.

Just as an idea, why don't you list the town he's from? There are a lot of LE guys on here, who knows, you might get lucky and have a fellow forum member with jurisdiction where he lives.

billwill · #12 07-07-2013, 05:51 PM

Did you have a street address? Do a Google maps lookup and see what kinda neighborhood your dealing with, also I always do a search on the guy and the FFL.....you can find amazing stuff on the web.

Hope things turn out OK for you.

ebrem · #13 07-09-2013, 10:42 AM

Admin Edit:
I removed the name and address posted here.
Till you know if that person is involved and not just an innocent person whose address was scammed, it is not prudent to post it.
bluegrass hit the exact possibility in Post # 21-

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluegrassarms

It comes down to whether this is just someone who decided to do you wrong or a professional scam artist. If it's a pro they will probably intercept the mail and not have direct ties to the person you sent it to, work up a fake ID, cash them at a grocery, etc. If it is the person living there or immediate relative, etc. then there's a chance as long as the Postal service does the legwork.

_______________________________________

Thank you all for your support. I did contact the local Postal Inspector who is investigating this. He feels it could be a National, or possibly an International scam, with the MO going to the address sent to and then possibly cashed by a second party that is unaware of the scam.

The person I had email contact with was Lessing, and the Money Orders were to be made out to Vick XXXX
I was in constant contact with a Lessing by email so I mistakenly wrote the MO's to Lessing not Vick. The Postal Inspector said it looks like there is a {a person by that name} living at that address.

He did say it looks like there may be a person by that name living there. I contacted the local PO and the Postal Inspector contacted the surrounding PO's.
The MO's can be cash at grocery stores etc. So they are still gathering information. It look like a slim chance for any positive outcome on my part. I don't like learning this way from my mistake.

I will keep you posted.

BigBill · #14 07-09-2013, 11:50 AM

For some reason I been very weary of someone contacting me for a purchase when he says he has what I'm looking for. If he said he has his ffl license if you still have that message print it out and put a package together with all the info and call the batf. That's fraud bag him, tag him and jail him. Let the batf work with the usps for his address and info. The usps check should show were it was cashed and deposited. It can't be that hard to trace.

jaykellogg · #15 07-09-2013, 12:46 PM

Bummer about the money! If these are professionals they may be hard to track down, but if he is just an amatuer he probably got himself into something he really didn't want to tangle with.

I bought an ejector for a Luger from The Luger Man just outside of Philadelphia. I paid $100 for the part plus shipping with a money order. When it became apparent he wasn't going to ship or return my money I contacted the Postal Inspectors. I supposed it got a low priority because it was only $100, but after about 9 months total I got a package I had to sign for. Inside was a very nice Luger extractor. Of course by then I had bought another. I figured the Postal Inspectors told him to either ship the part or return the money.

timn8er · #16 07-09-2013, 12:47 PM

Sorry for your problem. Its hard enough to trust anyone nowadays without something like this happening. You've really got to watch out. Recently, when I posted a WTB on another site. I received this reply:

"hello i have what you want to purcharse and its in safe condition kindly contact me back"

That is exactly how I received it & it raised all kinds of doubt to me. I steered clear of the seller.

radar1972 · #17 07-09-2013, 01:07 PM

I must be an old fuddy-duddy, because the only way I have ever purchased a gun (or ever would) is in a face-to-face transaction where I can physically inspect it first.

BigBill · #18 07-09-2013, 01:13 PM

I purchased a few guns from GB AND GA plus from forum members in the past. So far 100% of them have been honest. Dishonestly won't deter me but I'm careful when I can be. I do go by my first gutt feeling. If I second guess myself I turn and burn.

Autococker07 · #19 07-09-2013, 01:41 PM

I use a simple sanity check. I ask the emailer to snap a photo of the item with an identifiable note visible (i.e. your email addy on a postcard with the gun) 99.9% of people who do not reply, or take the picture are fakes plain and simple. Of course face to face is always nicer, and you stand a chance of making a new gun buddy....

Hope all works out for you... I do like Postal MO because it is the safest way to send cash...

GKC · #20 07-09-2013, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radar1972

I must be an old fuddy-duddy, because the only way I have ever purchased a gun (or ever would) is in a face-to-face transaction where I can physically inspect it first.

Even then, this day and time, you have to be wary. I've sold a few guns face to face, and I've always dealt with long-term members of the forum where I've advertised the gun for sale, so I felt OK about dealing with them. I have to admit, though, it's crossed my mind about being robbed, so I always make the exchange in a very public place.

If it was a new member, or someone for some reason that I felt some concern with, I'd just ask them to meet me at one of the gun shops I frequent (they have agreed to do this for me, and will even handle the transfer, if desired.) If the buyer balks at that, then I tell him no sale.

bluegrassarms · #21 07-09-2013, 04:38 PM

ebrem -- glad they're at least investigating. you're right it's not a great chance, but it is a chance.

It comes down to whether this is just someone who decided to do you wrong or a professional scam artist. If it's a pro they will probably intercept the mail and not have direct ties to the person you sent it to, work up a fake ID, cash them at a grocery, etc. If it is the person living there or immediate relative, etc. then there's a chance as long as the Postal service does the legwork. So for them to be doing it does give some hope.

Re buying over the internet, I buy and sell regularly and by and large it works great but there are some caveats. First, be it GB or Ebay or guns or anything else I deal with people with established feedback. if they are new I may work with them but not on a $1,000 item. Maybe a $20 item.

If it's a gun and if it's a dealer they are easily verified both with google (most will have a website or some kind of presence) and ATF with the FFL # if you dont' have the other stuff to rely on. If they aren't a dealer consider paying the extra money to have them take it to a local dealer and have him ship it, so you know when you send the money it's in the hands of someone who can be verified and trusted. Real dealers have strong incentives to not defraud anyone.

Ideally use credit cards b/c those charges can be disputed and it's harder (or at least less common) for people to intercept merchant accounts. If you use Money orders (some like me do charge extra for card use) verify the person's info you make it out to with google and the search I referenced above. For example if you plug in a FFL # at the ATF site it'll give you a name and/or company name. If the person were to ask you to make a MO out to someone else or mail it elsewhere that's a huge red flag.

Do use postal money orders IMO. As this case shows, at least it's a felony b/c it's mail fraud and you have someone you can call who may pick up the investigative ball. Maybe Wal Mart or others have protections as well, I don't know, but most advice I've seen says use USPS MOs b/c of the mail fraud tie in, and that sounds like good advice to me.

FWIW federal law requires shipping guns to the mailing address on the FFL, so if someone does give you a FFL and tells you to ship it elsewhere, i'd refuse. For them to do internet gun business that has to be a valid and maintained address, they should be able to take a payment to it. Again, a red flag if the various facts and names and addresses aren't matching up.

So, 1) go by references and feedback. 2) work with dealers and dealers with some presence if possible (I'm a one man shop so I don't mean a big box store, just something you can go on like a site), you can at least verify their FFL info against what they're telling you. 3) Use credit cards first, postal MOs second. 4) If it sounds or feels hinky, either research it till it sounds OK or don't do it.

I will say that the future of commerce is the internet and with shipping, guns and everything else. I'm not even 100% thrilled with it, but it's the way of things. The problem is the scammers know it too, and some are very sophisticated.

One last thought. If you are talking to someone who claims to be a FFL, they shouldn't hesitate to provide you with the documentation and assurances to prove it. The signed FFL document is the currency of the Realm in the internet gun business, they can email you a copy. Personally I worry that someone may be trying to scam me when I do it, but everything on it is a matter of public record, a scammer can go download an excel file with all of that info for every dealer in the US. So they should send you that, even a business or sales tax license if you need one to feel good. if they conduct business they'll have some kind of license that can again be verified with that city or state government via internet or quick phone call. If you're worried don't be afraid to ask for that kind of documentation.

Even with all that someone can scam you, but it'll give you excellent odds of avoiding them.

SW_shooter · #22 07-09-2013, 05:51 PM

That sucks. Sorry to hear it was a large amount.

Whenever I send a MO I get a little nervous but I usually try to check the person out best I can before hand. I always try to talk to them on the phone. I have a "spiddy" sense sort of.

I developed it over the years and it doesn't let me down very often. I can make a fairly good assessment of a person when I talk to them. I still do the types of checks others here have mentioned as well.

I hate thieves, there's just something about people lying and stealing that really gets my dander up.

Good luck ebrem, I hope you get your money back.

JJEH · #23 07-09-2013, 06:40 PM

Sorry to hear this. I hope you get your money back. Keep the Feds as well as the locals involved and hope for the best. Perhaps you can ask a lawyer too for advice. Some offer a free first consultation.

houdini26 · #24 07-09-2013, 08:04 PM

call the police where he is from and see if they can go over.

THEWELSHM · #25 07-09-2013, 08:15 PM

This is what I would do as well as some of the posters comments, help the post office by doing some leg work for them. If you have posters original email you can go into properties and get the IP address. Post in in the attached link

How to find the IP address of the email sender in Gmail, Yahoo mail, Hotmail, AOL, Outlook Express, etc.

and see if you are lucky enough. If he is a pro he could be using " hide my IP software" and create an IP anywhere in the world

But you do have money order numbers, as one poster said file them as lost and pay small penalty.

thewelshm

oldRoger · #26 07-10-2013, 12:08 AM

I was born and raised in Scottville, what an unlikely place to use for a scam.
When I lived there 60 years ago the population was 1200+/- and it still is about the same.
I lived on State Street too---but West State Street.
The entire county has less than 30,000 and is surrounded by counties about the same. My wife’s comment when we first visited was “outpost” and she comes from Nowheres-ville SD.

blujax01 · #27 07-10-2013, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houdini26

call the police where he is from and see if they can go over.

That was my advice four days ago.

Others may disagree but it has been my experience that the police move a Hell of a lot quicker than the Post Office.

LVSteve · #28 07-10-2013, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldRoger

I was born and raised in Scottville, what an unlikely place to use for a scam.

Sorry I have to break the news to you, but there are no such things as guaranteed "nice neighbourhoods" any more.

Aussie Collector · #29 07-12-2013, 06:09 AM

Sorry for your bad luck.
I often buy guns from interstate here in Australia with the seller making contact with me from wanted ads. I will not go further than a few emails until I have a phone number and have spoken to the person. When it’s private (not a dealer) I request the seller hand the gun to a local gun dealer before I send the money. I always choose the gun dealer and make contact with the dealer first. The arrangements being; the dealer is told that I’m buying a gun from an unknown person and don’t want to pay up until the gun is with the dealer. They then know not to release the gun either way until both of us (buyer & seller) are happy. Once the dealer has the gun we discuss the firearm to ensure it’s correct and as described, I then transfer the money to the sellers account, informing the dealer also. Once the seller receives the money, he contacts the dealer to post the firearm to my dealer. There is a charge involved which for you guys in the US is "cheap insurance".
I posted this in the hope it will help someone else not to be burnt.