Dang! I must not be able to communicate very well. Got contacted the other night about one of the kids that lives in our town. His folks wanted to know if I could "help."

The kid is fifteen years old and has already had some "problems" at home. He's threatened his sixteen-year old brother and seven-year old sister with a butcher knife. I guess he told them he was going to gut them like a fish. It was so bad, they had to call the authorities. He was taken away for about a week for "observation."

Anyway, he's home now and the main problem, as I see it, is the kid doesn't know how to work. His idea of exertion is sitting on his big fat [couch], eating ice cream, and playing his X-box all day long.

His parents asked if he could come over to my place and work for me. I told them it was okay as far as I was concerned. Apparently he had previously worked for one of the other guys in town and told his parents that the old boy was a "slave driver." I told them if he thought ol' Wade was a slave driver, he'd hate me, because I make Wade look like a pussy cat.

Then, I sort of laid things out. I explained that I wouldn't ask him to do anything I wasn't willing to do right along side him...that included everything from shoveling manure to digging thistle out of the pastures to topping off some young mules.

He was supposed to show up over an hour ago. He hasn't shown.

Did I say something wrong?

My buddy across the road thinks it's because the kid heard about me answering my door one night about 10:45 with a .45 in my hand. My friend says that might've put the kid on edge.

I don't know. I'm thinking that if his folks call again, I'll just tell them that I can't use him. What do you think?

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Pack light and cinch tight.

No i dont think it has anything to do with guns. What does working for someone have to do with their guns? Its not like you walk around drunkenly, shooting at objects. On thee other hand, he has shown a history of laziness and no desire to work.

He just doesnt want to work.

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Depends on how tender hearted you are. If he does show, and you succeed at making him work, and he learns to respect the work, it could turn his life around.

Not very likely though. He's probably a goner.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

Depends on how invested in the kid you want to be, Mule Packer.

Granted, he doesn't sound like a good candidate so far, by not showing up. Who could blame you for not wanting to take on somebody else's problem?

It's probably not the kid's idea to come work for you; it's the parents'. I imagine the kid's not at all interested, especially if he thinks you'll be a tough boss and not brook any (cow dung) from him.

The parents probably are at wits' end with him, and hope somebody else will be able to get through to him.

So, are you invested in this kid, or not? If you are, you already know what you're getting into. If not, probably better for both of you if you "can't use him."

If -- and it's a big if -- the kid is willing to give it an honest try, it might make a big difference in the long run. Especially if, in addition to offering him the opportunity to work his tail off at an age when boys don't usually like to work their tails off, you might be able to offer him a little something extra, like teaching him how to shoot, or to ride, or such as that. (And if the parents are on board with that.)

Tough call, I'm sure. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

What's your gut telling you? Pray about it, the do what your heart leads you to do. That's my advice.

You can help him all you can and then he'll steal your guns.

My buddy across the road thinks it's because the kid heard about me answering my door one night about 10:45 with a .45 in my hand. My friend says that might've put the kid on edge.[/QUOTE]

Anyone knocks on my door at that time at night, I guarantee that I will have some steel in my hand if I open it. Nice of you to try and help the family but I think this kid has more problems than shoveling a few road apples will fix. good Luck.

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

I wouldn't take this one on,that kid has mental health issues.
My father would get an occasional request like this and then assign them to me when I was in my early 20s.None of them worked out.The worst one vanished after a few weeks and finally turned up in Florida.He was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic.I couldn't define what was wrong with him back then,but after trying to work with him that first day I knew he was nuts.

The formative period is long gone - take a giant step backwards.

15 is too young to give up on. He's probably more scared of work than your .45. If you can, try to converse with him, and be sure give him gloves, cause he's sure going to get some blisters. If he's from N. Utah, it's not like he's from Detroit, or Newark.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

And if they are chained and locked he will steal the chain and lock. Larry

If this kid has threatened his siblings with a knife and mentioned gutting them, he needs psychiatric evaluation pronto. He could just be an angry teenager who isn't getting his way, or it could be far more serious.

I have one relative and one friend each of whom has a teenaged boy who has been diagnosed as a true sociopath. These are people with something missing: they are incapable of empathy or concern for others. They can kill someone without remorse, torture animals, steal quite casually, etc., etc. They can also be very believable. In both the cases involving people I know the juvenile courts mandated home incarceration, which puts parents and siblings in an impossible situation.

Before offering this kid a job I'd urge his parents most strongly to get him evaluated by someone competent to diagnose his problem in depth. I have great respect for juvenile court social workers, but most of them are not sufficiently trained in that level of diagnostic work.

No, it's not "the kids today". This kid doesn't fit easy generalization. Lots of others don't for positive reasons.

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Oh well, what the hell.

If he is that fat and lazy, then it sounds like to me that work begins at home. Even if he lives in an apartment there should be things to keep his fat self moving.

When I was a kid my parents never ran out of work for me. Wash the cars, yard work, clean the garage, give the dog a bath, mop the the kitchen floor, clean all the windows in the house (I hated that) fireplace... on and on... or just be dad's go-fer when he was working on the car, house or TV (TVs had tubes back then and it was fun to use the tube tester at the grocery store). Dad was NEVER at a loss to keep me busy. SLAVE DRIVER!!

The kids today are a product of the parents today, the schools today, television today, movies today, music today, but mostly of parents or lack of parents today.

First off, we no longer have stable families where the mother is home to supervise the children. Over 50 percent of marriages today end in divorce, and a lot never take place as some women choose to be single parents, and some are single parents out of necessity. We always had a little of this but today it has become the norm, not the exception.

Second too many parents are afraid to discipline their children and want to be friends rather than parents. Children need discipline from an early age, and they need to learn there are consequences to their actions.

Third too many parents don't have or don't make the time and effort required to teach their children responsibility. It is easier to just do all the work themselves or hire it done or let it slide.

Good parenting is difficult and relentless work. It is not just providing food, clothing, toys, and shelter. Good parenting requires time with the children, and not just an hour here or there and justify it by calling it quality time. All time spent with your children is quality time, but they need a large quantity of it, not just a taste every once in while.

The idea that a single parent is as good as two parents is absurd. Now in an emergency we all do the best we can, but to plan on being a single parent is child abuse to my mind.

There are not many women who can deal with adolescent or teenage boys. Unfortunately our brave new world global society is predicated on destroying the family unit, and the result is the children you are complaining about.

All that separates us from our caveman ancestors is the socialization that we provide through first our family units, then through schools, media, and peers. When we allow our basic family and schools to be decimated by government regulations, we deserve the children we are now getting.

So none of us should look to lay the blame on these children, although they will have to carry the burden. Rather we should all look in the mirror to cast blame for we as a society have allowed these terrible changes to take place on our watch.

At the risk of sounding a bit harsh, why are you willing to take on the parents' job for them? Looks to me like they're just wanting to shuffle their responsibilities off on you. If they want him to work, they should put him to work! I can't imagine they can't find anything for him to do! Looks to me like they just want you to be the bad guy so they won't have to do it themselves. I'd stay away from the whole mess.

That boy needs to be taken out back and have the laziness "disciplined" out of him.
In our town, "old fashioned" values still apply. There's generations of families living in these hills. Kids work hard mowing lawns in the summer and shoveling snow in the winter. They say "sir" and "Ma'am."
Yeah, we don't have cell service and people consider us "backwards" but it works for me.

No way am I willing to take on the parents job for them, nor do I believe it is possible for society to do the job for them.

I am just answering the original post which asks what's with children today, and explaining why things are the way they are. I think we need to put more responsibility for these kids back on the parents that failed to properly raise them, not just dump all the blame on the children alone. Our responsibility is to change the laws, and social morays that precipitate slack parenting and that encourage bad behavior in children.

I am saying if we continue to allow the current situation to continue we have to share in the blame for the destruction it produces. We need to stop embracing change for change sake and realize there are traditional ways of rearing children and maintaining families that worked well for centuries, and our recent departure from those in the name of progress is destroying us.

Our problems as a society and as a nation are much more fundamental than taking on the parent’s job for them. And just sitting back and saying, oh what a bad kid, is avoiding the real problem. I don’t mean the child gets to duck responsibility either, but it is not the child alone that is causing this.

Children will do whatever they can get away with pretty much. That is why they need two strong parents. If you never teach a child any better, it is foolish to expect better out of them.

And the parents of today in greater and greater numbers are not teaching their children anything. They delegate it to society, to television, to movies, and to schools as your post suggests, which is doomed to failure. Our schools and our media have disintegrated even faster than our nuclear families.

It does not take a village to raise a child, but it does take at least one highly committed parent, and preferably two committed parents. All that is required of the village is not to set up laws, or social programs, or incentives that interfere with or break down our traditional nuclear families. In short a village that dose not put minority rights above majority rights. That is the antitheses of a democratic or representative form of government. For most of these destructive changes have been as a direct result of minority special rights.

Getting into this anymore would breach the posting ethics of this site.

Snubbyfan is probably correct; Wyo is surely correct. What were the results of his psych eval? Were there recommendations? Were they realistic? Are they being followed? Do any of the police folk involved have any serious comments? It is to your credit to want to help, but this might be a very dangerous situation, not so much physically as legally.

Not enough info for me. Maybe not enough info for you, either.

JMO.

Mule Packer, if you can give the kid one more chance. It may be one of the few chances he will be given to turn his life around. Do remember though the young man in question is the only one who determines how his life turns out.

Kinda hard to fix "broke folks". Being an old drunk, quit in 1977, I have seen quite a few hard cases in my quest to help out. Unfortunately, there are a few that just can't make it. Some do. I will never turn down the opportunity to try and help someone, and Mule Packer you are a commendable soul for your efforts.

The one thing I tell my "students" is "I am not going to work harder on your problem than you do." Then we set out from there. I am a BIG advocate of the "tough love arena." Heres the boundaries, get it or get in the road.

I applaud your efforts of trying and wish you, and mainly him, only the best. This is a tough one Mule. Just play her by ear.

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

Friend of mine bought a trailer, hitched it to the back of his truck and moved out here to get away from the city and get his "stuff" together. Him and his wife divorced years ago and she got their boy. She started smoking crack, sold her body for drug money then killed herself.
My friend got his son back at 16 and did his best to raise the boy right including a psych eval. He was diagnosed as having a borderline personality disorder. Meds helped some. Now the boys in his 20's and he's in jail again.

100% agree with this, and there is a chance the kid has a screw loose if the parent's description of the threat with the butcher knife is accurate. BUT kids being kids, it could have just been "tough talk" with something heard on TV or in a movie, and not an honest-to-goodness threat with the intent to follow up.

Being the "middle kid" has its own set of stressors, and who knows what the dynamic is in that family. The older brother could be a bully, the younger sister a pest....you know the drill.

I hope the kid will be OK, no matter what. Thanks, Mule Packer, for at least considering giving him a shot.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

Its not just kids, I know just as many people middle aged or older with the same ethic.

When I was a kid, I looked for people working outside, to watch or help. When they would let me I preferred to help. I learned to keep my mouth shut and watch or help. Either way I learned a lot, sometimes the way not to do something. Regardless, it was something in my nature that drove me towards work.

My friends all thought I was nuts. It is not just this generation, but all generations have their share of lazy people, and their share of workers.

Give him another chance, but watch your back. Thanks for trying. Ed

This sounds like a part in the movie Gran Torino (starring Clint Eastwood). He isn't Mongolian is he?

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Ephesians 6 (Armor of God)

SLAVE DRIVER!!, indeed, explaining the curmudgeon you've become...

I have been through this as my sister had 6 kids and her husband died young. I belive it was called paranoid schizophrenic with one. He was in the army a short while and got drummed out. Shortly after that his dad died and he was on my door step. I had him a couple days and was giving him a mild chewing. We were at the supper table and he grabed a steak knife, started shaking and started to tell me that he was the meanest ------ ------ in the world with a knife. At the time I was married and my daughter was about five and she was sitting between us. To me it seemed slow motion. My ex said she never seen me move so fast in my life. I knocked him to the floor and really was fighting myself to not kill him.
The next morning I took him to a shrink and the shrink came out and told me, yup he`s crazy, belive it or not, in those very words! We eventualy got him medicated and on ssi. That was back around 1983. Today he lives by himself and is about 49 years old. He is okay as long as he is on his meds, he still dont work and is fully on ssi.
If you are going to get involved, (I wouldnt again), you need to find out if he is a mental case or just rotten. if he is just spoiled you might stand a chance of beating him in line, but likely you will get in big legal trouble if you do that. You cant fix crazy. Eventualy if thats the case he will get meds and on the system before he kills someone.
I used to argue and preach untill I was blue in the face with him. All that it done was make him feel bad and I would hate myself for loseing it. Been there, done that, and wont again. He had another brother that I went through the same thing with too. That one died on my watch in 2004. He was about 40 years old. My sister has a third son that is about 6ft 8"s with a worse case of it. It was or had to be some genetic mis match as she had six kids and three of them have/had this disorder. Personaly, I lay it possibly due to her and her husband getting into sceintology back in the 1950s and raiseing the kids in it and useing their methods. I will also say most "experts" will say I am wrong.

I'd call his folks just to see that they are ALIVE.

i would have liked to work for someone like you at 15, i worked for most my neighbors here and there as needed. one guy let me shoot his 44mag blackhawk another made moonshine,yet another had a knock out daughter that became miss rodeo canada .
kid might come around, hope so for his sake. working for the neighbor rocks.

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the rules? there are no rules

The very best of luck to you....and your decision,one way or another.

We're sort of on our second round with all this.We were blessed with having 1/2 dz or so young men come through here that we helped up from the bttm.Words just can't do justice to the peace and harmony that God bestows on you for lending a helping hand.

We're working on wacked/messed up G-youngins now.One of my extended G-boys is 5.Him and his 4 y.o. brother were taken from a crack *****.A cpl younger friends of ours adopted both.Anyway,we babysit....and love doing so.The little 5 y.o. is just pathetic,he just got kicked out of another preschool.Their new mom's in hospital(messed up knee) so we're working with him.

It's a sad state when people abuse...mentally as well as physically...little kids.Will say a prayer for you.Best of luck.

It's not the kid, it's not you, it's the parent(s), the failing schools, and a pervasive state philosophy of dire consequences for the parent or a teacher should appropriate discipline be applied.

Don't they still have those "boot camps" for troubled kids?
f.t.

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South Carolina-God's country

Right!

If there was a teen at home I wouldn't be begging the neighbors to put him to use. There's endless work to be done right here at home! Almost makes me wish there was a teen at home... well maybe almost...

For me it would depend on how mentally sick this kid is. Don't want him turning on you one day. Sad to say but not everyone can be saved, trouble is it's almost impossible to tell who can and who can't. If he's already threatened his own family with a knife I would be very concerned. Just watched a documentary about kids like that. If he's got any history of setting fire, animal cruelty and bed wetting the odds are he's quite dangerous. Sorry, just an opinion.

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Back to back World War Champs.

There is one of those programs for troubled intercity youths here in the boonies. They take the kids I think blindfolded or however in the remote area of SW utah. They make the kids live primitive and do stuff together to rely on each other. I have ran into them several times while we were rideing quad in remote areas. The first time we were parked on the trail and some came through pushing a high wheeled hand cart of supplys. A black kid smiled and asked me if I had some coke. I started to dig out a pop out of our cooler bag to give them a few and their handeler came up and said that wasnt the type coke he wanted! Another time a cowboy came with a van of them to our friends resturant. I noticed that when a couple used the rest room he stood by the door as they could have tried to escape and hitch hike away. What I seen may well have actualy been rebellious sons of rich people paying big to have them straightend out by a wilderness type boot camp. I met one guy that had worked as a counseler for what sounded like the same group. I dont know if it was this outfit or not but suspect it was.
Boot Camps Troubled Teens | Utah

Agreed, 100%. That's why he needs expert psychiatric evaluation. If he has a borderline personality disorder, that's difficult to treat because it's what seems normal to him and he figures everybody else is screwed up; but it can be treated over a long period of time. Personality disorders are learned ways of behaving, not true mental illness. On the other hand, if he's a true sociopath it will never be really safe for him to live in society. That's harsh, but it's true. He lacks the ability to feel any compunction about hurting or killing animals or people, and always will.

Sure, there are lots of spoiled, lazy kids who just don't like rules and refuse to work. There are plenty who could have used a hell of a lot more discipline when they were younger. But there are many who are great kids, and unfortunately a few who are terribly dangerous.

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Oh well, what the hell.

I taught school several years ago. Ran into a few kids like the one described. If he has threatened sibling he definitely need to have someone qualified evaluate him. A lot of parents are willing to allow someone else to raise their offspring for them. I couldn't make up in seven hours at school the lack of interest or neglect many got at home. I was there to teach thirty kids math, science , spelling, English, by the way, toss in manners, respect for others, patience, etc.
I don't know if it's possible for you to make up in a few hours what he is lacking from home. I had one kid pull a knife on another for disrespecting him for stepping on his shadow. Sounds like you might be better off not having him show up.
If he does, check six, keep your head on a swivel.

As said it would be hard enough handeling a mean, spoiled, lazy kid but still that would be more doable than trying to teach a undiagnosed and un medicated skitzo! You have to be sure his problem isnt a medical mental one first! Even the army didnt diagnose my nephews problem. Than just threw him out. It was AFTER that, that it got so bad we had him diagnosed, medicated and got him on ssi. I spent (wasted?) roughly eight years fighting and policeing two nephews on and off and sometimes together. This is matthew, the one that died on me in 2004.

you all remember thet teen angst is real ,right?
i knew a kid that was a bad axe wanted to be a gunman ,didnt mind fighting ,screwed up all the time loved burnin stuff and making weapons, traps etc killed a lot of squirrels etc tried making bombs but didnt know how. (no internet back then). chased girls didnt do his homework was kicked out of his moms house to live with his dad and was bounced back a year later,and he was mean to his cat...well, he turned out ok yeah the cat too
he might just need a good example to follow. a kid like that might just listen to a man he respects

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the rules? there are no rules