Military Collectors - Help needed with Unit ID

[Smithhound]

Recently a female friends' Grandfather passed away, he was a WWII Vet and his Father was a WWI Vet, She inherited all his effects along with $2 million dollars (yeah, I know, life if rough). She brought back a huge truck load of stuff from his estate and we've been going thru it. While going thru an old trunk we found what I believe to be a complete WWI (possibly WWII) uniform, wool shirt, baggy top pants and gaiters etc and this 'C' cap. No insignia on the uniform which leads me to believe this was a basic training type uniform, the 'C' cap has the pictured Unit ID on it, along with the pictured flag, also in the trunk were discharge papers from WWI and all kinds of old stuff, Red Cross magazines from 1918 and all kinds of militaria. Luckily all this was given to me.
I'm trying to find any info on the Unit ID for the flag and badge on the 'C' cap. Do any of you Military collectors have a clue as to what this could be? It could be either WWI or WWII, not sure as thier effects were all mixed up. This is a treasure trove of items. One of the things in the trunk was a banner from an extremely politically incorrect 'social organization' that reached it's zenith in the early 1920's, I'll leave it to you to figure out which one (and NO I will not post pictures of it as it is extremely offensive and I'm not a fool).
I hope to get pics of the entire Uniform and other effects up, but would really like any help on the Unit ID on these two items.
Also in the trunk were two old US Flags with 48 stars, a beautiful old hammered leather 'slapjack', and old 'Roosevelt for President' buttons, just tons of stuff.
Thanks for any help.
RD

[jlrhiner]

I'm sorry, I can't get down to my books yet. (knee replacement). It will be at least a week yet. If you don't have an answer in a week or so, pm me.

[Smithhound]

Will do, good luck with the new knee, follow the Doc's orders on rehab, it makes a huge difference. I had my right hip done 3 years ago so know what you're going thru.
I'll get the uniform out and get some pics of it in the meantime. Going to pick up more stuff this week, it's just amazing all the items She brought back, everything from an antique table top butter churn to an ancient Bible that has carved wood covers. Also a copy of 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' written in Swedish.
One of the oddest things was an old toaster from the late 1800's or so, made completely out of metal the sides fold down and you put the bread in the sides, not the top, then close the doors. The heating elements are directly in the center, so if you forget to unplug it and reach too far in to get your toast, you get toasted.
I got two uncut 1905 pattern bayonets for the '03 Springfield, one with a leather and canvas cover, both in original condition, one with what looked to be original cosmoline on it along with a German 'Butcher Blade' bayonet with saw cuts on the back. There are three old upright wood cabinet radio's and ton's of other stuff, we're still going thru it all.
RD

[jlrhiner]

Ooooh, if that's an UN-altered original Mauser saw back, that's a goodie. I'll check to see who the original manufacturers were.

[Muley Gil]

That appears to be a WW II overseas cap. The WW I version would be made in olive drab wool.

[Smithhound]

Muley, I was leaning WWII, just didn't 'feel' like a Great War item. I'm going to post pics of the Bayonets I got. Also got a solid brass bell carved with Japanese dragons, Cindy does know that her Grandfather served in Occupied Japan so this was probably 'liberated' during that time.
I'm picking up stacks of old military magazines and others, these two guys were just packrats of the first magnatude.
Cooking some Sopapia's soon and will get pics of bayo's up later.
RD

[handejector]

That is a DUI- Distinctive Unit Insignia, but "Unit Crest" is a more common term.
Good Luck- if deactivated long ago, it can be hard to research.

Are there any letters? They usually show a unit in the address or the return address.
Look for printed orders. (orders are in print for every action that occurs to a serviceman, from promotions to transfers to awards to discharge.)
Look for anything he marked with his name and unit.

[ditrina]

The flag in the picture looks like a " I have a son/daughter in the service".. Red border.. white field blue star.. Each star represented a servicemen..



Gold star indicated KIA..
I would imagine the "Fighting Sullivans", Mom had five stars that turned gold

[Smithhound]

Ditrina, it is similar, but if you look at the badge on the cap you'll see the same design on the lower right, top right is crossed rifles, leading me to believe it to be an Infantry unit.
How anyone ever figured out or kept up with all that is mindboggling when you think about it. I guess that is what makes it an organized military force instead of an armed mob tho'.
RD

[handejector]

I think the Mother's flags hung vertically, with the star oriented for vertical hang.
Close, but I don't think it is a Mother's flag.

The Army called that a 'garrison cap' in the 60's, and I think they called it that all the way back.
I think the Marines always called it the 'overseas cap'.

I forget the official name for the Bus Driver Hat, or Flying Saucer.

[-db-]

It's called a garrison cover in the USMC, too.

[Smithhound]

Group shot of bayonets. These are shown with an original WWII bayo for the Garand. Oddly the bayo with the canvass scabbard will fit the '03, but not the Garand, the early fiberglass one will fit both.



Close up of markings on early model:



Butcher Blade, I do not know if this is German but suspect so:



Markings:



Sawback shot:



You can see the flash gaurd and the modification made to fit this to the Kar98, they had to grind off the barrel ring as the Kar98's barrel would not extend thru it.
All these came from the same trunk of stuff, I wish they had taken care to mark it in some way but who thought along those lines back then. I figure they were just glad to have made it home, probaly didn't want to think about it much.
If my figures are right, or close, we lost 58,000 people in Vietnam, in WWI we lost about the same amount, but our involvment in 'Nam lasted over 10 years, our involvment in the Great War was around 6 months. Do the math and the rate of casualties is just staggering. Then add in those killed by the Influenza outbreak. It really makes you stop and think.
The technology of death had far outpaced the methods of War, but they just kept feeding people in using tactics designed a Century before. What a time.
RD

[Muley Gil]

Originally Posted by -db-

It's called a garrison cover in the USMC, too.

There are other names too, but Lee would wash my mouth out with soap.

[-db-]

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

There are other names too, but Lee would wash my mouth out with soap.

Yes, I considered posting that, too, but thought better of it.

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The Army called it an overseas cap too. We got the idea from the French, they usually called it a bonnet de police. It fit under the helmet and doubled as a head warmer. Before then, the Army and Marines had the "garrison" cap, aka "service" cap or "saucer" hat for garrison and dress use, the campaign hat for the field-what we call today either a Smokey Bear hat or DI's hat.
WWI hats were browner in color, in WWII the troops were issued OD ones for winter wear,khaki for summer.

[handejector]

The sawback is a Model 98/05. It is unaltered- never had a ring.
Contrary to myth, the teeth were not to cause nasty wounds. They were for sawing wood. Imagine that! It took a lot of boards to build trenches and bunkers, and to keep them repaired under heavy shelling.
It should be dated on the back edge just behind the teeth. I don't remember seeing that particular maker.
It is the most valuable piece you have shown.

Did you guys also call it an overseas cap?
The Jarheads, I mean Marines, I knew called it that.
What decides when you wear it?
In the Army, it was the only dress cap for the Airborne. We could send the bus driver hats home.

[-db-]

I think "overseas" cap/cover is a very old term, possibly pre-dating WWI. It gets confusing after awhile with all the different cover/cap styles.

Like Muley Gil pointed out, there's a single term we could use by which everyone, Marines anyway, would know exactly what's being referred to but it's not quite "politically correct".

[handejector]

Originally Posted by BLACKHAWKNJ

Before then, the Army and Marines had the "garrison" cap, aka "service" cap or "saucer" hat for garrison and dress use, the campaign hat for the field-what we call today either a Smokey Bear hat or DI's hat.

Incorrect.
The saucer is NOT the garrison cap.
U.S. Army Garrison Caps
US ARMY ENLISTED GARRISON CAP

[-db-]

Marines call the saucer/bus driver-type cap a barracks cover.

[GyMac]

I have seen that torch associated with military intelligence.

[shouldazagged]

Originally Posted by -db-

Like Muley Gil pointed out, there's a single term we could use by which everyone, Marines anyway, would know exactly what's being referred to but it's not quite "politically correct".

It's not in the same time zone with "politically correct!".

[Smithhound]

Lol. I can't remember the official name for that we used in the Air Force
but my reference to it as the 'C' cap shows we all had the similar derisive term for it.
From what I've learned about the saw wback it was issues to special units like machinegun and artillery units and also 'pioneer' units and used for brush clearing to effect clear fields of fire. The rumor spread that it was used to inflict severe wounds in use, which it would of course, and those enemy soldiers caught with it were reportedly shot on the spot. Don't know if that is just a tale but you find many of them with the saw back ground off.
I would not want to get stuck with it, nor any of them for that matter.
Since we think the uniform is WWII I'll concentrate on finding Cindy's Grandfathers service info.
Thanks all for the help.
RD

[ChuckS1]

The badge on the cap is a regimental insignia. I would surmise that the crossed rifles indicate that it was an infantry unit and the torch would, at least from my experience with TRADOC, seem to indicate that it was a training unit ("torch of knowledge"). The "1" would be the a numeric designator of some sort. No idea what the star is. Just a guess from the OP's comment that this might have been a uniform straight out of basic training.

[kimporter]

i did a search here and got nada,but i would guess the insg is from an inf school,the flag is a "son in service" flag,in 35 yrs of going to military collectors shows i've seen all sizes of those,i even have the homemade one my granny did for my uncle in ww2.please post more pics,im dying to see the uniforms

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by handejector

The Army called that a 'garrison cap' in the 60's, and I think they called it that all the way back.
I think the Marines always called it the 'overseas cap'.

Those weren't worn before WWI. They were borrowed from the French who called them "bonnet de police". The Brits call them "side caps". They were much more practical than the "Montana peak" Stetsons, but provided almost no protection from the elements.

In the '70s and '80s, we called them something else...

[REM 3200]

Originally Posted by ChuckS1

The badge on the cap is a regimental insignia. I would surmise that the crossed rifles indicate that it was an infantry unit and the torch would, at least from my experience with TRADOC, seem to indicate that it was a training unit ("torch of knowledge"). The "1" would be the a numeric designator of some sort. No idea what the star is. Just a guess from the OP's comment that this might have been a uniform straight out of basic training.

I was thinking a ROTC unit.

[charlie sherrill]

The German "butcher bayonet" was very controversial in WWI. The allies made a big propaganda issue out of the saw back claiming it was used to butcher allied soldiers. They even sent word to the Germans that any soldier caught with one of these would be executed on the spot and for that reason many of them found now had the saw ground off the back of the blade. I have one with the saw back and sheath in very good condition. I've had it long enough that I don't remember where it came from.

[cmort666]

Originally Posted by charlie sherrill

The German "butcher bayonet" was very controversial in WWI. The allies made a big propaganda issue out of the saw back claiming it was used to butcher allied soldiers. They even sent word to the Germans that any soldier caught with one of these would be executed on the spot and for that reason many of them found now had the saw ground off the back of the blade. I have one with the saw back and sheath in very good condition. I've had it long enough that I don't remember where it came from.

If I remember correctly, they were originally issued to "Pioneers", the equivalent of our Combat Engineers.

Odd and often impractical bayonets were a feature of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Sir Richard Burton, the famous explorer and author of a renowned book on edged weapons, was scathing in his contempt for the briefly fashionable "yataghan" style of sword bayonet, used by the British and other armies.

[Smithhound]

The SawBack is a viscious looking thing alright.
As I said the GreatGranfather's and Grandfathers effects are all mixed up so it's a puzzle sorting what is what. Some great old stuff there, hope to get more soon.
Here are some pics of other things.
This one I believe solves the mystery of the Uniform, it shows Cindy's Grandfather wearing what I believe to be the Uniform in question, sans Cap. Don't know where it was taken but definately points to WWII. He later served as the first President of the Garyton Ind. American Legion post according to some paperwork and medals we found. Garyton was renamed Gary Indiana.



Some other effects, I love the old 'Sap'. Again, I don't know what era this dates from it was found with the Banner I mentioned in the OP, a very 'polictacally incorrect' item but it's very valuable (the Banner that is) I'm getting alot of this framed.



Cover of a Red Cross Magazine from August 1918 followed by a shot of a lead soldier someone (maybe the Grandfather as a child?) painted to sort of match the cover:





Picture titled 'The Mother of the Blind Soldier' from the RC magazine:



A painting showing a trench battle, also from the RC magazine:




I hope to get out the Uniform and get a picture, but it is absolutely filthy, either mud or blood stained and smells to high heaven from years of storage. Anyone have any suggestions on cleaning something like this? I figure hand washing with Woolite, don't know if it would survive the washing machine.

I'm picking up some more old magazines and antiques in a few days and will have more info on the people and pictures, there is one of an Airplane show from 1911, showing the latest 'high tech' aerocraft, and a group shot of the WWI unit the GreatGrandfather belonged to.
RD

[bummer]

I posted a description of your unit dui on a forum that deals with US militaria , hope to get a reply most riki-tiki

[the ringo kid]

Originally Posted by bummer

I posted a description of your unit dui on a forum that deals with US militaria , hope to get a reply most riki-tiki

I was going to mention those guys. I posted something with no pictures but by description--they told me exactly what it was and even produced photos of the item that exactly matched mine. What i had was a pair of WWII sterling silver Bombardiers Wings-the guy I bought it from said they were Air Gunner wings. I only bought them because my Dads Air Gunner wings belong to history and I wanted to replace them.

I dont collect US stuff--but should--however, im decently OK with most things Imperial, WWII and 1957--German.

[Smithhound]

We have learned that Cindys' Grandfather was Charles Fred Johnson (WWII) Vet and his Father (WWI Vet) was Charles Gustavius Johnson. Charles Fred definately served as first commander of American Legion Hall in Garyton Indiana, we've found paperwork naming him as such, still searching for his Discharge paperwork. GreatGrandfather was discharged in December of 1918. Don't know that this means much to anyone but it's interesting to piece all this together.
RD

[4330Inroute]

As a suggestion: If you are in the same county he lived in after his discharge check with the county recorders office. Lots of returning veterans registered/recorded their discharge with the county to have a record on file in case they lost their original. Check with the American Legion/ VFW posts. Sometimes the discharge papers are on file with their secretary along with an application for membership.
Good luck in your search.

[PA Guns & Ammo]

Here is the info on the flag: Service Flags are Back in Style

[safearm]

Originally Posted by Smithhound

Lol. I can't remember the official name for that we used in the Air Force
but my reference to it as the 'C' cap shows we all had the similar derisive term for it.
RD

The "bus driver" hat is called the service hat. The other is called the flight cap, although it has a number of other names.

[bummer]

According to the folks at usmilitaria.com its a 1st Regiment New Hampshire state guard DUI made in plastic. I posted a link from your original post. If you have questions about US militaria that's the place.

[kimporter]

do a forum search for a us militaria forum,they have TONS of info on how to maintain and preserve uniforms,they can id stuff ect,our own charlie flick is a member of it,good folks over there i highy recommend it,but i still want to see pics of the uniforms