I'd like to get some thoughts on C&R licenses....I collect mostly older stuff, much of which qualifies....my LGS tells me I can buy and sell as many pieces as I like without a license (I don't usually sell anything), however, it might be nice to be able to buy old stuff directly...What do you think about the advantages or disadvantages of a C&R license? I am only a little concerned about the recordkeeping, but more concerned about the paper trail..

Thanks in advance...I love this forum and all of the great free advice and commentary....

You can buy all you can afford and find, but selling is another matter. The C&R license gives no selling privileges other than you already enjoy as a private party. The only drawback to that being that you are more likely to be scrutinized by the BATF than if you did not have the license. Admittedly, this is not very likely, but there is that possibility. With that in mind, you need to be very scrupulous in maintaining the records in your bound book of all purchases with your license, and all dispositions.

The one thing you must be careful about if you have a table at a gun show is to not purchase or take in trade a firearm and put it up for sale at the same show. If there is a BATF presence at the show, that will be construed as engaging in the business.

So, do my current pieces go into the log, or just those acquired after a license is in effect? I knew about the gun show thing, but since I don't really plan on selling, that shouldn't be an issue..

I had some questions about the bound book rules, so I sent an email with questions to the ATF. I received a call from them and this is what I was told.

Any C&R firearms acquired after getting the license must be put in the book even if you did not use the C&R to buy the firearm.

If you sell a C&R Firearm that you bought before you had the license, you must put it in the book as bought from you and record the sale and info of the individual that you sold it to.

While not necessary, it was advised that I enter C&R firearms bought before the license in the book or keep them in a different place as the firearms bought with the license. It the ATF comes to your house and you do not have proof of purchase before getting the license, they will probably assume that you are in violation of the rules. I have a list of firearms that I purchased before the license with dates to show as proof.

If you do not renew your license, you do not have to send the book to the ATF like you would if you had a regular FFL. You can trash the book after not renewing the license.

I found the ATF person very informative and she seemed to want to help with my questions.

__________________
Corripe Cervisiam

I've had a C&R for 3 renewals now (6 years now and good until 2016). The best thing is being able to go to a gun show and buy and take it home with you. Buying a gun in another state and not having to worry about having it shipped to a FFL. Buying a gun off the internet and having it shipped directly to your home. Being able to get some discount pricing from a few on line distributors such as Brownells, Graff's, (Midway just ceased C&R dealer pricing).

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I doubt very much that Georgia residents have a special dispensation from the BATF that allows a C&R holder to "engage in the business" although I may be mistaken. I realize that the attitude of the state may vary, as to what constitutes engaging in the business, and the restrictions by the state have some influence on the issuing of an FFL. To the best of my knowledge, in order to obtain an FFL, one must comply with all state and local laws, such as zoning restrictions, sales tax number, etc. Some states have tight restrictions, some loose or none; however, they must be observed.

That being said, having a C&R license will not only not protect you if the BATF decides you are engaging in the business as a livelihood, but will damn you if they decide to prosecute, because they have the right to presume that you have read, understood, and agree with the provisions of a C&R license. You will not be able to plead ignorance.

Bear in mind that if the BATF decides that you are making too much of your living buying and selling guns (and THEY are the ones who get to decide) you can also expect a "courtesy call" from the IRS as to what your income tax returns show.

Not a lawyer, just a retired accountant who has had dealings with the federal and state governments on a number of matters, but if in doubt, err on the side of caution.

Incidentally, having a C&R is great, except that once you get one, all that great stuff you saw before, but because of inconvenience, waiting periods, transfer costs, etc. passed up, you will never see again.

The application and renewals for a C&R specifically state May not engage in the "business" of buying and selling firearms. Yes, you can sell some, but be very cautious about ever setting up a booth at a gun show. I heard a rough rule of thumb that if you sell more than 10% of the ones you but via a C&R over a years period you may be considered "in the business".

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Keep the entrys up to date in your bound book, your receipts and other transaction paperwork in order and you'll be fine.
Keep the guns on your C&R separate from your 'personal owned' firearms.
Tag your personal C&R guns as such if they are intermingled because of lack of space, ect with the ones in your C&R book.
Simply keep track of your inventory.

Have secure storage,,thats always a big point if they come and visit.
...and don't make a buy/sell business out of the collecting hobby,,you knew that already.

Lots on the plus side,,buying on site and taking it with you in most instances. Having the gun shipped to your licensed premises. Discounts at some retailers and suppliers.
If you do sell a gun, & sell to another FFL ,,, Then you log it out of your book that way. If needed you can ship it directly to that FFL also. (You can't use the USPO for handguns though).

As a C&R (and not an 01 Dealer FFL) since you are not a 'Business',,you will not be doing any 4473's,,never calling NICS, not collecting any sales tax (if applicable in your area), not filing a Fed Income Tax for a self owner business.
The stumbling block of having Zoning compliance shouldn't be the big problem it is for 01FFL's because there is no 'business' in the residence.

If you absolutely fear a knock on the door from the BATF for a compliance check,,then don't even apply.
It's not worth even one restless night.

Everyone looks at this a bit differently.

That is certainly your right but, if you hold any type of FFL, check the CD-ROM that you receive from the ATF. You'll find that there are no restrictions in shipping a C&R to a C&R licensee in Illinois. I've had my license for many years and never once have I had another licensee refuse to ship to me. California is entirely different. You can ship a C&R firearm to California even though it's not on their approved roster but it has to ship to an 01 licensee, not directly to an 03 licensee.

__________________
NRA, SWCA #2262

This is wrong.. Your C&R bound book is ONLY for firearms acquired with the C&R License.
Also Wrong. Again, C&R bound book is ONLY for firearms acquired with the C&R License.


BUT, to keep things recorded easliy and unquestionable, keep a separate log book for:
1: Gun acquired with your C&R License.
2: Gun acquired without your C&R License.


****GUYS - you have got to be careful getting advice from BATF over the phone. Especially on C&R Stuff. The person on the phone is not an expert... Why didn't they e-mail back to the OP? Because the BATF Employee didn't want a record of their 'recommendations' in case they are wrong. **** Get it in writing.



AND, most likely, you will never see BATF about a C&R License..... unless you are doing something blatently wrong. They are understaffed (according to them) and have more important fish to fry.

I started with a C&R and now have a gun business with an FFF-01 Dealer License. I kept the C&R active for $30 it's a bargain. I also do all the BATF Compliance at my "day job" at an Explosives/NFA Weapon manufacturer.

The local IOI's (Industry Operations Invesigator) are the first point of contact on these things. They have so many different regulations to keep straight it is not possible. The only way to get a 'real' official answer is to get it in writing --- and then sometimes it too may be wrong.

--------------

OH, so back to the original question:

Advantages: For guns that qualify: Acquire cool guns, can be shipped directly to your door. No 4473. Discounts from some places (Brownells may still have C&R discount).

Disadvantages: not too many, except you are more "on the radar". BATF can request to see your books (unlikely) --- your choice to let them come to your home or you can go to their office. Also you will be more broke.

You can BUY and sell C&R guns as long as it is not a business. This is not defined anywhere. If you are buying more than selling, then you would be good. It is for collecting.

As one IOI that I know said "Best Bargain the Federal Gov't has to offer for the money".

John

__________________
John

Maybe it's just me, but I see nothing good about having my name on a list in Washington, DC.