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Old 11-14-2013, 06:57 PM
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Unhappy EPA new rules shuts down last lead plant.

Doe Run lead mines the last lead mine in the USA has decided to close the Herculanmaum plant in Missouri. Doe Run had planned to invest 100M in the Herculaneum Plant untill the EPA raised the bar and made operating the plant a loser financially. EPA rules were raised ten fold making operating in the US a loser. Domestic lead ore will have to be shipped to China or other 3rd world countries for processing. Costing jobs in Missouri a conservative state, and making it a necessity to ship ore to other countries that have laxer laws....For shooters this means the price of lead ammo will be much higher domestically...Maybe this is one reason the government has bought so much ammo...It is so nice the government is protecting us from lead posioning. The lead miners are sure glad they are now protected, BUT WILL SOON BE BROKE...Merry Christmas Eastern Missouri....
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Old 11-14-2013, 09:53 PM
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EPA has been out of control for years-- I have lost track of the one man gas stations they have closed down around Virginia.
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:04 AM
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There was a past thread some time ago, concerning a federal agency buying a immence amount of ammo to stock pile for what ever reason. All I'm saying is that God forbid we ever get into a global conflict I sure don't think it is avery good policy to be in a position that we have to depend on China or for that matter, anybody else for ammo. For better or worse the lead belt of Missouri is the largest concentration of lead ore in the world. However lead for any use must be smelted. Now our lead will have to be sent overseas for smelting...Hope we don't ever need large amounts of lead for any global emergency I remember someone on this site commenting on the millions of rounds bought by one of our federal agencies. Wasn't the military!!!!! Darn who else would need 10's of millions rounds of small arms ammo.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:57 AM
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Not to worry, our military is busily changing over to green small arms ammo, that is lead free. Almost all of the Army's 5.56 is now lead free. Instead they are using tungsten or some other heavy rare metal, that can only be obtained in bulk from: wait for it, Red China.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:04 PM
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I think closing this facility would be a national security problem and the EPA shouldn't be allowed to do it. The EPA should be reigned in by congress. They have become too powerful and can basically make law without oversight. You ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until they get through killing the coal industry. Not only will that kill thousands of jobs but your power bill is going to soar. The EPA has an agenda and could care less about the economic damage they are causing. We've got a chance to start correcting some of this crazy stuff in next years mid term elections. Let's pack the polls and show some of these politicians what happens when they don't listen to the people they work for.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:09 PM
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I'm pretty damned tired of being "saved from myself".
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:11 PM
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LOL Like I said about the ammo market manipulation running deep right down to raw materials. If all else fails destroy the ammo supply. The president and EPA have far too many powers that they can wield in a destructive manner. The sheer magnitude of shipping ore out of country and shipping it back as a finished product will send lead prices skyrocketing. Then again I have seen the mentality of sitting on our unused reserves of materials while we use up the cheaper foreign reserves (i.e. oil, natural gas, rare earth metals). China is doing a pretty good job of destroying their own environment and health. Smelting all our lead will just help them along.

I also don't doubt that in the name of the environment all lead will be banned from ammo sometime near future. I could live with that as long as there is a viable, cost effective alternative. The "green" military ammo is certainly not cost effective and is costing tax payers a fortune.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:20 PM
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They are closing the plant that makes new lead. Most lead you see and use is in fact recycled lead. That plant is running strong. Your wheel and fishing weighs, battery terminals, ammo and everything else is made from recycled lead.

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Old 11-15-2013, 12:38 PM
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It's been coming for a long time. Many moons ago I was a Master Plumber and back in the early 80's the EPA started on the lead in solder business. I got out of that trade in 1987 and was smart enough (?) to stash a few rolls of 50/50 and I'm so glad I did as it is impossible to get now. Unfortunately it was washed away in a flood a few years later.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:32 PM
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When I read this stuff I wonder how many times I have crimped lead split shots in my teeth, or bit on a lead cast net sinker to hold it while casting the net out? melted lead for toy soldiers or sinkers and jig heads or as a kid played with broken thermometer mercury rubbing it on pennies in my bare hands to make the pennies shine like dimes. I have never had any symptoms of problems from either of these metals after 65 yrs. How many thousands of people have I met here in the US or around the world on business yet never met one who had lead or mercury poisoning.
Steve W. Please excuse the "rant"
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:44 PM
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When I read this stuff I wonder how many times I have crimped lead split shots in my teeth, or bit on a lead cast net sinker to hold it while casting the net out? melted lead for toy soldiers or sinkers and jig heads or as a kid played with broken thermometer mercury rubbing it on pennies in my bare hands to make the pennies shine like dimes. I have never had any symptoms of problems from either of these metals after 65 yrs. How many thousands of people have I met here in the US or around the world on business yet never met one who had lead or mercury poisoning.
Steve W. Please excuse the "rant"
Your are correct sir!

The problem is that the statists that run things have no reason or moderation. Its always an all or nothing approach. Oh extended exposure to lead is bad lets ban every molecule of it...

I still laugh at the ban lead solder from copper pipes, you have to really wonder just how much lead will actually leach into the water. Never mind all the houses that had lead pipes coming from the water mains...

Just like when children eat old paint chips, its the paints fault. Not the parents that allow paint to chip or peel off the wall, never mind allow children to eat it.

Yet they wonder why so many people are fed up with it all...
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:46 PM
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As long as we have Chinese toothpaste and toys we'll never run out of lead.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:11 PM
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Sierra was asked about this and they stated all their lead used for ammunition is secondary lead (recycled) rather primary (lead from ore). They also said they bought from several different secondary smelters rather than just one to insure a constant supply of lead. While it's a shame some of the bozos in the Great Windbag on the Potomac are putting more people out of work and sending even more money overseas, it's not time to panic yet regarding a lack of lead.

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Old 11-15-2013, 07:09 PM
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You of course are right...However what is the right time to just say...STOP......They call and as far as I iknow the area of what we speak "The Lead Belt".......Recycled lead is great ,but you can bet that source will dry up.....We have become a nation of followers...Any non producing egg head that spent his or her whole life as a educator has become the moral authority for the rest of us....I don't need their help...Thank You....I heard all the **** about Korea from the left and on later occassions on the Nam.....When you are in the service I never once was asked by a superior what is your feelings about the war....It really comes down to your fellow servicemen....I was called up for Cuba no one asked me if I agreed on our policy and to be honest I could have gave a damn about Cuba..I was called to go...Nuff said...I do know that leaving or depending on others for critical supplies is crazy......Recycled or first run......When do we need a bunch of egg-heads to tell us what we need or for that matter what we want...Those aprox. 160 workers that work the Herculaneum plant just want to follow their fathers line of work......They know the risks, they know the need, and they are probably as pro American as you can get...Go to SE Missouri and babble about the good of the rest of the world.....When did the rest of the world give a darn about us.....I think the government has taken on more authority than it can chew....Lead today coal tomorrow. maybe gas next week....How much government do we need.....Just my opinion but forged for the last 75 years....Remember this we the US were the greatest steel producers in the world....Wonder where the steel comes from now????? How and why did we win WW2...we out produced are ememies by 10 fold.....If we lost ships we just produced more, when the enemy lost ships they had to do with what they could repair..I will take the American worker over the rest of the world by spades...Just don't handcuff them into dependence on foreign supplies....
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:31 PM
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boy, do I have comments for this. enough to get banned forever.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:44 PM
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So somehow it is more green to mine it, ship it overseas, process it, and ship it back, rather than to mine it here and process it here?

Did somebody let the lead dust go to their head? Or is this the EPA pulling a NIMBY (not in my back yard)?
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Old 11-16-2013, 08:40 AM
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I think if we really knew how much control the government has over our every day lives we would be shocked....I am not talking about laws...I an talking about all the hidden agenda regulations that for some reason have now become so intrusive that we have become almost used, and accepting of them....The new health care law is a good example. How many pages...As one of our esteemed lawmakers said. pass it and then read it....How many of us would buy a used car without driving it first? Yet we willingly accept a law that will affect just about everybody. Now we find it isn't quite what was explained to us......Sheep we ar becoming......SAD
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:49 AM
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Regarding lead in home water pipes, some homes have acid water. The water will dissolve a bit of solder overnight. Also your kitchen faucet is probably made of brass with up to 2% lead added to help the chips break up when the brass is machined. It is good practice to run just a bit of water into the sink before you collect some for drinking or cooking. I have used the plumbing solder with antimony in it and cannot tell the difference. Copper pipes are on their way out anyway.

The EPA has written rules that has made many other businesses unprofitable.
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:51 AM
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They are closing the plant that makes new lead. Most lead you see and use is in fact recycled lead. That plant is running strong. Your wheel and fishing weighs, battery terminals, ammo and everything else is made from recycled lead.

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This; coming from a guy who has a basic understanding of.......


Basic understanding of what is reality.

Every car style lead acid battery is made up of 85% of it's total weight in lead. Just think of how heavy your single car battery is, and then imagine how much actual lead is already in the loop.
Of ALL the lead used in the US, over 75% is recycled lead.
New, pure annealed lead is very limited in it's dedicated uses. Radioactive shielding uses new, pure lead because of the specs called out for in the design process. Can be no steel particles or antimony- radiation will bounce and feed from that.
Certain electrical components require new lead. It is then mixed with stuff like antimony, gold, silver. They use pure lead; again- to ensure the volume of lead is a known quality/ quantity.
Lead is a major byproduct of silver, and mercury mining as well. When silver is smelted, lead gets separated. As this happens, that lead is pure, and it goes into the lead supply system.
There are hundreds. And HUNDREDS of thousands of tons of surplus lead in our system. We are not running out of lead anytime soon.

And, as to grasping at straws as losing lead smelting as the reason for buying up millions of rounds of ammo???
I now know why your dog is so tired after bringing back a stick. Because it was far fetched..........

Thanks Arik for giving proper insight on this.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:00 AM
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The Gov't is doing anything and everything to make the cost of ammunition higher and more scarce. Since they haven't quite figured out how to null & void the Second Amendment yet, they're working on the ammo part.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:00 AM
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One of the problems with lead poisoning is that it effects thinking-you may not have the ability to reason well after exposure. And of course, you become irritable. Of course, that describes most of us after age 50, but lead is a real problem. You won't notice anything different in children unless they develop tremors, because they stay the same-they just don't develop fully. Personally, I am going to blame lead poisoning for the tremor in my right hand and trigger finger.

Lead poisoning rates rise in U.S. after CDC lowers blood cutoff - CBS News

Quote:
Too much lead can harm developing brains and can mean a lower IQ.
The new number translates to about 1 in 38 young children.
Lead poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Lead interferes with a variety of body processes and is toxic to many organs and tissues including the heart, bones, intestines, kidneys, and reproductive and nervous systems. It interferes with the development of the nervous system and is therefore particularly toxic to children, causing potentially permanent learning and behavior disorders. Symptoms include abdominal pain, confusion, headache, anemia, irritability, and in severe cases seizures, coma, and death.
Lead poisoning is a real problem. If you don't recognize a problem, you can not deal with it. If you don't deal with this, it will bite your grand kids. Denial is not dealing with it.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:22 AM
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While I heartily agree that lead is a poison and lead exposure (especially in children) should be avoided. So is cadmium and mercury. I admit to coating pennies with mercury when a youngster in spite of being warned it was dangerous. The term "Mad as a Hatter" comes from when hat makers tanned hides with mercury. They all went crazy. You can absorb it through your skin. Now the Government in all of its wisdom is telling us to invest in CFL bulbs. Did you know if you break a fluorescent bulb in your home you release deadly mercury? Do you recycle your dead fluorescent bulbs? Do you even know how? Immagine how much mercury will be in out landfills after folks just throw all these bulbs in the garbage.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:22 AM
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Regarding lead in home water pipes, some homes have acid water. The water will dissolve a bit of solder overnight. Also your kitchen faucet is probably made of brass with up to 2% lead added to help the chips break up when the brass is machined. It is good practice to run just a bit of water into the sink before you collect some for drinking or cooking. I have used the plumbing solder with antimony in it and cannot tell the difference. Copper pipes are on their way out anyway.

The EPA has written rules that has made many other businesses unprofitable.
Uhhhhhh................... you do understand that the lead in your car battery sits in a solution of 40% SULFURIC ACID, right? as in, burn your flesh right off you acid.

And, you do understand that a TOMATO has more acid in it than your water ever would, right? Cut a tomato, and put it on a fishing weight and leave it there. You will see........ absolutely NOTHING will happen to it.

There has been no lead in solder for plumbing pipe for nearly 25 years. In 1986, the Safe Water Drinking Act bumped lead from pipe solder.
Now; BEFORE that, lead solder in pipes would last about forever. But NOW........now solder uses tin and antimony, and a bit of silver. What will burn up in a solder is the tin and antimony.

A big part of why copper pipes tend to not last as long as in the previous generation is the different alloys now used in solder have different dialectic qualities, and they will attract some minerals/ elements, and some they will promote stripping it from surrounding materials. Meaning........ they will strip elements from the copper pipe itself, allowing it to corrode.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:32 AM
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Uhhhhhh................... you do understand that the lead in your car battery sits in a solution of 40% SULFURIC ACID, right? as in, burn your flesh right off you acid.

And, you do understand that a TOMATO has more acid in it than your water ever would, right? Cut a tomato, and put it on a fishing weight and leave it there. You will see........ absolutely NOTHING will happen to it.

There has been no lead in solder for plumbing pipe for nearly 25 years. In 1986, the Safe Water Drinking Act bumped lead from pipe solder.
Now; BEFORE that, lead solder in pipes would last about forever. But NOW........now solder uses tin and antimony, and a bit of silver. What will burn up in a solder is the tin and antimony.

A big part of why copper pipes tend to not last as long as in the previous generation is the different alloys now used in solder have different dialectic qualities, and they will attract some minerals/ elements, and some they will promote stripping it from surrounding materials. Meaning........ they will strip elements from the copper pipe itself, allowing it to corrode.
I know I have been warned for over 40 years about lead in drinking water and Cadmium being used to harden waterpipes. Also the ancient Romans used lead pipes to deliver water to their homes and suffered from lead poisoning. The high cost of copper makes copper plumbing prohibitive in today's homes. There are cheaper and easier to install products available today.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:51 AM
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One of the problems with lead poisoning is that it effects thinking-you may not have the ability to reason well after exposure. And of course, you become irritable. Of course, that describes most of us after age 50, but lead is a real problem. You won't notice anything different in children unless they develop tremors, because they stay the same-they just don't develop fully. Personally, I am going to blame lead poisoning for the tremor in my right hand and trigger finger.

Lead poisoning rates rise in U.S. after CDC lowers blood cutoff - CBS News



Lead poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Lead poisoning is a real problem. If you don't recognize a problem, you can not deal with it. If you don't deal with this, it will bite your grand kids. Denial is not dealing with it.
There is still real, honest to goodness lead water pipe in service in many of the very old buildings on the east coast of the US.
Lead was the liner for the pipe system for the Roman empire. When Rome was built, much of the channels and pipe were lead lined, and truth be told......... a good bit of it is STILL in service to this day. When exposed to oxygen; almost all alloys and metals oxidize. The oxidation is a sacrificial protective skin on the material; natures way of shielding a material so it is not dissolved too quickly. As if God was an engineer.
Lead in water lines oxidizes. And when it does, the lead is harmless. Drinking water from lead pipes, yes you should clear the first bit of water. But in the overall? The lead in the pipes is not hurting people. Simple reality vs. fear mongering.
Lead makes you dumb. Yeah, if you get a lot of lead vapor ingested, you will have damages. Inhale too much burning wood vapor, you have issues too......
The entire civilized world drank from lead pipes for over 500 YEARS. How many of the worlds' population show any signs of lead poisoning, and how many worldwide showed neurological damages that were a result of lead?

I am not saying lead is the greatest stuff ever. (Beer is.) But to say that the trace lead we are receiving in life is utterly detrimental to our health is simply not true. For the last 500 years, humans ingested, were exposed to, and absorbed far greater amounts of lead than anyone walking the earth today. And the truth is.......... they were fine.
Are there some who will have horrible reactions to lead ingestion? YES. There are people who can die from eating a peanut butter sandwich. A friggin' PEANUT can kill a person. While 99% of the world can eat peanuts and get off scott-free.
Some break out in a rash if they brush up against some materials like fiberglass cloth. But they can rub against a window with no problems. Believe it or not, they are the same material.

Factual history shows the overall lead poisoning/ lead reaction rates to be minuscule. It has been surmised that Nero was tripped out because of possible lead exposure. One can never be sure, drugs and alcohol also play major roles in space cadet behavior, as can a good bonk to the head.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:53 AM
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I know I have been warned for over 40 years about lead in drinking water and Cadmium being used to harden waterpipes. Also the ancient Romans used lead pipes to deliver water to their homes and suffered from lead poisoning. The high cost of copper makes copper plumbing prohibitive in today's homes. There are cheaper and easier to install products available today.
Hard water from ground supplies makes me think more and more about Pex tubing for my eventual house build.......... The stuff is very good.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:00 AM
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IIRC archaeologists have determined that wealthier (ancient) Roman citizens had higher lead in their bones than the poor. At one time tomatoes were considered poison partly because people used pewter plates and flatware and the acid in the tomatoes released lead.

Lead poisoning is one of the reasons that the poor don't do as well in school as wealthier students. Poor are more like to live in residences with lead paint.

Lead abatement is important at indoor ranges.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:04 AM
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Hard water from ground supplies makes me think more and more about Pex tubing for my eventual house build.......... The stuff is very good.
I think Pex is state of the art today. BTW, I am a small time property manager and investor. I have a log cabin that is all Pex and in my home I have PVC and CPVC, but the plumbers used Pex for my recent addition.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:07 AM
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I used pex in my sisters kitchen remodel.The time savings over sweating in all new copper was fantastic.5 years old and no problems.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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They are closing the plant that makes new lead. Most lead you see and use is in fact recycled lead. That plant is running strong. Your wheel and fishing weighs, battery terminals, ammo and everything else is made from recycled lead.

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Hate to sound like an alarmist (because I'm not) but it makes me wonder. Are they eating this elephant one bite at a time? Could the recycling plants be subject to new regs soon too? Could this even be driven by a hidden agenda by the government to further squeeze the availability and raise the price of ammo in an effort to reduce ranks of shooters (and therefore the gun lobby?) It's really not a far stretch when you think about it as all the means are within their grasp.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:29 AM
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I think Pex is state of the art today. BTW, I am a small time property manager and investor. I have a log cabin that is all Pex and in my home I have PVC and CPVC, but the plumbers used Pex for my recent addition.

I just purchased a higher end modular home and the entire clean water side is made of Pex. I guess my only gripe with it is that I'm not comfortable adding/altering plumping anymore as I once was with sweating pipes. This stuff is Greek to me :-(
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:34 AM
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I just purchased a higher end modular home and the entire clean water side is made of Pex. I guess my only gripe with it is that I'm not comfortable adding/altering plumping anymore as I once was with sweating pipes. This stuff is Greek to me :-(
It's very easy to work with,use a scrap piece and attach a few fittings to get a feel for it.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:47 AM
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I guess we should all use wind power...Works good with airplanes and tanks.....We should no longer worry about our national debt....Our advisaries will take pity on us....I am old enough I won't have to learn Chinise, and I don't worry a bout buying all our energy from those who at best tolerat us and some who flat hate us.....We have wind power don't you know.......I wonder if you can run a tank on wind power, etc, etc. We need to stay self suffecient folks we are not the most liked nation any more.....We have so many friends in the world, heck they will provide for us I'm sure.......and pigs fly and electric cars are real nice if you arn't going anywhere...My opinion is we need to regain our self sufficientcy..
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Wee Hooker View Post
Hate to sound like an alarmist (because I'm not) but it makes me wonder. Are they eating this elephant one bite at a time? Could the recycling plants be subject to new regs soon too? Could this even be driven by a hidden agenda by the government to further squeeze the availability and raise the price of ammo in an effort to reduce ranks of shooters (and therefore the gun lobby?) It's really not a far stretch when you think about it as all the means are within their grasp.
You DO understand that bullets/ ammunition production in the US uses less lead every year than the fishing industry does, right?
If there is such a chart as to show exactly how many tons of lead are used in each industry, ammunition is going to be like 3rd.
3rd from the BOTTOM.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:26 AM
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So if we have no need for new lead then why did the government waste probable millions of dollars studying this. Then write pages of new regulation that they knew would be unaffordable for the industry to meet.

If the market would have made the new industry non cost competitive, true market rules would have done the job for them. The taxpayers would have saved how many millions?

My guess is talking points, see we saved you from the nasty old lead, now children can sleep in their beds safely. Thank you dear leader, that you!

I am as far from knowledgeable on lead recycling but when the local scrap man pays $10.00 for a old car battery the components of it must be expensive. I do know that reclaiming battery lead is hazardous and produces nasty stuff, so it isn't cheap to do.

Just seems like more big government over reach and a waste of time and money. The hallmark of big government...

Last edited by wheelgun28; 11-17-2013 at 12:00 PM. Reason: spellin
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Old 11-17-2013, 11:49 PM
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I have been to Doe Run and it is a shame the EPA is forcing them out of business. If you don't think it will affect our ecomony just price a new car battery... they have doubled (in price) in the last few years.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:33 AM
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All the lead you will ever need is available in the berm at you local range. Price is low, takes a little labor, and satisfaction is priceless.
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Old 11-18-2013, 05:32 AM
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All the lead you will ever need is available in the berm at you local range. Price is low, takes a little labor, and satisfaction is priceless.
Here in my neck of the woods we are not allowed to reclaim the lead at our Ranges for two basic reasons.

1) The Ranges don't wan't unprotected and untrained lead collection by Club members and shooters.

2) The Ranges and Clubs collect the lead themselves and sell it and help finance the Range, Club and or property.
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