New Mexico trooper stop..shots fired!!

[george minze]

I just watched that fiasco in New Mexico....The driver a lady or so she was described but had kids in the car, tried driving away from Troopers that had stopped her for a violation they shot at the car and then beat out the passenger windo with their night sticks....I come from the old school but darn not that old....Unless there is something that we didn't see on TV I think those troopers had better come up with a doozy explaination..Watch it, it is all over the news..Maybe a little over reaction. Considering my back ground and when I started in LE I usually always give the LEO's the benifit....However this dash tape is not to benificial to NMSP.....In my opinion. Watch it and what do you think...Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age ??????

[DeathGrip]

No mater what, They crossed the line when one started shooting at the van full of children.

[25elk]

The unedited version shows the woman getting out of the van after the officer told her they had clocked her going 71, she exited the van confronting the officer and then attempted to drive off. They stop her again and she gets out and assaults the officer and her 14 yo son (who appears to be a grown man) bails out of the passenger side and joins in the assault then they jump back into the van and drive off while the state police are trying to stop the van. Over reacting? Perhaps, but where is the limit and how much abuse are the officers expected to take. Personally I would have jumped back into my vehicle and radioed an APB and joined in a hot pursuit...but then if she wrecked the van the police would have again been vilified for pursuing a vehicle loaded with children. Who is REALLY at fault here is the mother who put the lives of her children in jeopardy and her thug of a son who assaulted a police officer but I'm sure before all is done the the only bad guys will be the NMSP.

[T.L.R.]

Unless the driver of the car had a threatning weapon, I'de sat it is far over reacting to a traffic stop for speeding. No need to be shooting at the vehicle. I never believed in police car chases. All the police have to do is follow the car till it runs out of gas. Then apprehend or whatever. Why put other people in danger. Shooting at a car full of kids over a traffic violation, ( unless the driver had a weapon), is not good law enforcement. Don't these officers get proper training before giving them a badge and a gun ?

[duppie]

There is always 3 sides to a story as far as I'm concerned but even after all has been reveled it appears that in this age of audio and video seemingly everywhere,today's LEOs are not being portrayed in a favorable light.
That preconception is only spread after each video is released and I can't help but think that it has almost become a self fulfilling prophecy.
I believe that being a LEO has become a job instead of a profession and a shift in training will only prove to a increase in these type of incidents.

[JackM]

One thing is certain: the DashCam is the textbook definition of a "disinterested observer". No bias at all. One question I had was this: Did the officer who fired the shots know there were kids in the car?

[snake803]

I wonder if the traffic stop was anywhere near Demming, NM?????
JIM............

[Arik]

"Kids" is a very broad term. Last week I met a distant family member who got remarried. I saw her stepson. Young man about 23 years old, about 6 ft tall at 180lbs +/-, very muscular with broad shoulders and big arms. Looks like the guy works out. I was floored when I found out he just turned 15

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[Alpo]

Originally Posted by T.L.R.

Unless the driver of the car had a threatning weapon, I'de sat it is far over reacting to a traffic stop for speeding. No need to be shooting at the vehicle. I never believed in police car chases. All the police have to do is follow the car till it runs out of gas. Then apprehend or whatever. Why put other people in danger. Shooting at a car full of kids over a traffic violation, ( unless the driver had a weapon), is not good law enforcement. Don't these officers get proper training before giving them a badge and a gun ?

That's a good plan, if they are just "refusing to pull over".

But when you're on a 60MPH road, and they are driving away at 103mph, if you are going to "follow the car", you pretty much gotta be driving 103mph also. Right?

Cop-car following a non-cop-car at 40 miles over the limit is "high speed pursuit".

I don't think you thought this out completely.

[keith44spl]

Of course I'm like some others here....I'm ol school and I've shot at vehicles, but all of em was trying to run over me!

Not flee the scene of a traffic stop for a violation, even after being stop the second time, from flee the first stop.
Probable just a misdemeanor fleeing charge at best.....

Mexico's statutes might or may allow an officer to use deadly force to stop a fleeing misdemeanor suspect, I jest don't know about that.

I'd just about bet a dollar to a road apple, that some former talk show host is gonna be all over this one...
The popo can't just go around 'dis'n folks like that!


When ya let a simple traffic stop get out of control....This is the kind stuff that can happen. Bad all the way around.


.

* Just in; Driver also charge with possession of drug paraphernalia....Which may have been legal in Colorado...

.

[bobcat]

Firing on a vehicle moving away, with no shots fired from the vehicle or weapon displayed by an occupant of the vehicle would have been a violation of our firearms policy. If a moving vehicle is coming towards you in a manner that puts your life in danger, then you can fire on the vehicle. I wasn't there, wasn't involved, but based on what little I saw, I didn't see any behavior that would have made me fire on that vehicle. JMHO...

[J. W.]

Originally Posted by duppie

There is always 3 sides to a story as far as I'm concerned but even after all has been reveled it appears that in this age of audio and video seemingly everywhere,today's LEOs are not being portrayed in a favorable light.
That preconception is only spread after each video is released and I can't help but think that it has almost become a self fulfilling prophecy.
I believe that being a LEO has become a job instead of a profession and a shift in training will only prove to a increase in these type of incidents.

I hate to say it, but you are right to a degree. Affirmative action and relaxed hiring standards are partly to blame. Instead of hiring the best candidate for the job, agencies are hiring the person with the right skin tone or anatomy hat can pass the minimum standard. Beyond that, you have fewer and fewer people testing every year. Because of this standards have been lowered and people being hired that would have never had a chance 20 years ago.

Then you have the liberal media. They edit video and report in a manner that suits their agenda. This is true across the board, not just in regards to LE. From the inside looking out, as a LEO, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. From the media to the public to our own administrators people love to sit back and MMQB decisions that the officer in questions had a split second to make. However, if you're wrong, you're wrong.

First of all, the mother is flat out wrong, she made every bit of this happen. Apparently drug paraphernalia was found in the vehicle after the fiasco ended. Another mother of the year candidate for sure... What kind of mother would act that way in front of her children? Absolutely unreal.

The only issue I see is firing at the vehicle. Perhaps it may be within NMSP policy to attempt to disable a vehicle by shooting tires out, but it was a bad decision with children in the vehicle. Perhaps after the initial incident the trooper should have used more force more swiftly to get the woman secured before things went further south. It's a common thing to see officers use too little force on women and it almost always ends poorly. Frankly, IMO he was trying to make the best of a bad situation, but the woman insisted on making matters worse.

This fracas is just another manifestation of the decay of society and the ever growing entitlement mindset.


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[Arik]

Originally Posted by Alpo

That's a good plan, if they are just "refusing to pull over".

But when you're on a 60MPH road, and they are driving away at 103mph, if you are going to "follow the car", you pretty much gotta be driving 103mph also. Right?

Cop-car following a non-cop-car at 40 miles over the limit is "high speed pursuit".

I don't think you thought this out completely.

Nope! My car can do 400 highway miles on one tank. Using that logic.....I filled up today and if I were to be chased by the police I can go north from work in Pa, through NJ, through all of NY state, into Canada and almost make it to Montreal which is about 2hrs north of the border. On a 1/2 a tank I can get to almost the border. Assuming I had 1/2 a tank this would be a 4-6 hour police chase involving 3 states and many many townships and cities

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[old bear]

I have not seen the video, so any comments are strictly off the top of my head. I understand there was a high sped pursuit, an assault on an officer by two parties, then another high sped pursuit. Perhaps the officers were justified in the action that they took.

If you don't want to have something like this happen to you, then obey the law. If you disagree with the charges that's fine. Remember that's what the court system is for, not the side of the road.

Sadly, today to many folks feel that violence is the proper way to deal with a disagreement...

[arjay]

They've got a plate number,radios and computers.How hard would it be to drop by her shack and pick up the dingbat?

[gdnagle]

I guess they learned something on this "educational road trip".

I wasn't there and I'm not LEO, and only the officers can answer, but being he already had his Taser out maybe he should have just zapped her and ended it. After the second stop when he had the door open and she didn't comply then he had a chance there to tase her. Right or wrong as I see the video the officer was firing at the tires as he stated, still no excuse and three shots at that distance guess he thought he was dead eye. Wonder why the just arrived officer didn't pull in front of her and block her vehicle when he pulled up after she had just fled a earlier scene. Lots of after thought here but things happen fast.

Biggest offender here is the mother she instrumented the whole ordeal.

Obey the officer take the ticket and if ya think it's unwarranted go to court. She is the one that put her children at risk. Of course spike strips would have been better if available, she goes to jail, gets ticket and has to buy at least one new tire and probably rim. A lesson that cost money is a lesson you never forget. I guess the 18 yo had more sense then the BA 14 yo tuff guy who was protecting his defenseless mother from the big bad LEO according to the link posted..

[Arik]

Originally Posted by arjay

They've got a plate number,radios and computers.How hard would it be to drop by her shack and pick up the dingbat?

Assuming she in fact lives there, she is the driver of the car and it is not loaned out to a friend/relative, it has not been stolen, she will return shortly and isn't moving.

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[billwill]

Any body have a taser? Fish flop dance would be the next thing on the dash cam film.

Bad deal for the officers trying to do their job. A sad result of all this on the news is that some people see this and think I don't have to listen to the police...don't you touch me..

[Doug M.]

I did some searching and found the video.

N.M. police fire on minivan filled with kids, their mom: How it happened - CBS News

From the top:

Simple speeding stop. Shut up and take the ticket. Everything that happens from there is the fault of the driver. I have no idea why she drove away. The initial flight would be a misdemeanor here, as far as I can see - it takes recklessness in addition to the non-compliance to make it a felony elude.

Then: The trooper's tactics suck. They are awful. When she stops again, he should never have approached the vehicle. Period. It is now a high risk (as opposed to unknown risk, the only other category of stop; the felony/misdemeanor distinction is a lousy way to categorize). The trooper should have held the vehicle at gun (RIFLE) point from a position of cover or at least concealment until enough additional units were present to direct all the occupants out, one at a time, separate them, and find out what the heck is going on. (That means proned and cuffed, at least until the little ones are coming out and not likely to be a threat.) The level of complacency shown is appalling and worthy of a lengthy suspension and some serious re-training. If it is within policy and training, fire the nitwit who is responsible for that. You can't fix a command officer so stupid.

The tactical failure shows as soon as the trooper tries to drag the driver out. That's a heck of a chore to accomplish, and as we can see, it did not work. (Not anywhere near enough force, but he still should not have been up there.) It also meant he was not paying attention to the passengers, one of whom had already shown himself to be a threat by his prior actions. Clownshoes, top to bottom. He did not use nearly enough force on the driver, and he sure as heck did not use enough force on the passenger.

14? Who cares - big enough to be a problem. I spent years prosecuting juveniles. Many are dangerous because they are immature, and big enough to be a problem. I got in more fights in the juvenile court room with upset offenders (usually over piddly stuff, in the grand scheme) that I did with adult criminals. The passenger should have been hit hard enough to put him in the hospital as soon as he touched the trooper. PR24 (ASPs are about as useful as mammary glands on a bowling ball) to the thigh, palm-heel strikes to the face, cuff, ambulance, booking. Period.

Shooting? Ugh. I am not impressed. Admittedly, there is a violent felony in the mix now, but the escape is not by using the car as a weapon. I'd be hesitant. (So hesitant I can't see myself shooting). That said, the trooper shooting may not have known about the kids in the car, and mom is the one responsible for them being at risk. A zillion people a day get pulled over for piddly stuff like this; they get a ticket or a warning, and they go on their way after the contact with no drama. We can bet some # have contraband of some type, but most of those enforcement actions are not worth the time, and won't come up unless the driver is a complete idiot.

Those kids needed to be in protective custody (the 4 not apparently involved in criminal acts; the assailant needs to be in custody at the local juvenile detention center). I would have filed that as a child protective case in a heartbeat. This looks ugly, but it is not near as bad as will be portrayed by the ignorant fools who know nothing of use of force (including media, lawyers, and most command officers). Mom is responsible for all of it.

[zzzippper]

I saw the video. Hind sight is always 20/20. The police have so many assets available, even if they aren't there at the moment; calling ahead for road blocks, helicopters, etc.

What I don't get is why they weren't subdued with non-lethal means. One cop smashed a window with his baton, why couldn't they have been tasered? When the woman was out of the car and resisting why didn't they take her down? And she was a person of color, wait until the civil rights folks get involved.

[george minze]

I never thought the mother was r4ight. Ny problem is shooting at a vehicle for what at best was a traffic violation at the time the shots were fired. Watch the dash cam....The weed was found after the arrest was made.......The kid was a good sized kid no doubt...I couldn't tell if the officer that was firing his weapon was the original officer or not....We have all had unruely traffic violators and when it is a woman it becomes sort of a no win situation...My problem was the use of the firearm at the leaving vehicle. If he didn't know who was in the vehicle I doubt that lethal force would be justified. If he did know it would have been a case of fireing on a vehicle with kids in it for what at the time was a traffic violation and a attempt to flee....New Mexico has had a few officer involved over zealous actions as of late...My guess is the officer firing his weapon at the vehicle didn't know children were in the car. That may be even worse...But I'm monday morning quarter backing and I know better...Just not good actions in my opinion......Toward the end of my career shooting at a vehicle that was not trying to run you down or shooting at you would have been frowned on at the best and a violation of service standerds and charges at the worst. That is if you were lucky and didn't hit some one..Watch the tape make your own judgement.....Dash cams can be your best friend or your enemy...I think this case will be a tough one any way it ends. Thank God one of those kids we4rn't hit...

[jaykellogg]

The mother bought a whole lot of trouble for herself. She was on vacation (she resides in TN). As others have said, she should have just signed for the ticket and paid it later ($126).

Regarding the officer who fired those three shots, my guess is the investigation will show this as a bad shooting. (Also bad marksmanship IMHO).

Her lawyer stated she was afraid of losing her kids. Well DUH! This after she refused an officer's orders, fled the stop, etc, etc.

[M29since14]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

...Mom is responsible for all of it.

Absolutely. I hope she suffers the full weight of the law accordingly. I am not for bringing CPS into it, but hope she gets a good dose by all other means.

We weren't there and don't know the whole story, but there sure does appear to be need for "more training" as Doug M. points out. It's a miracle someone didn't get seriously hurt or killed in that silly mess.

[duppie]

Gentlemen....we can "armchair quarterback" this incident until the proverbial cows come home and all arise at totally different conclusions. I'm also cognizant that a cautious step is warranted in light of the fact that this forum is quite heavy in LEO members both past and present and a unforgiving policy on moderation......but you don't have to be a LE professional to conclude that the burden falls on the officers....
The driver ,while no saint or Mother of the year,displayed no firearm,did not attempt to use the vehicle as a weapon,and pretty much did a textbook move of attempting to evade the authorities...Twice! Supposedly a scenario just about all cops train for.
Now think about it....If the LEOs in question had erred on the side of safety and basic common sense there would essentially be no video and at most a passing blurb in the local rag touting the eventual arrest of our Mother of the year on traffic and drug charges. There is also no "damned if you do,damed if you don't" issue ...the LEO damned himself the moment the first round was fired at the fleeing vehicle with children in it regardless of age,physical stature or criminal intent..... Folks we can dance all we want around each other but we all recognize the song.

[BillK01]

I'm actually suprised shots weren't fired when the son gets out of the car and approaches the officer and begins to confront him.

As was already stated hindsight's 20/20 and we can armchair all we want - but I'm shocked it didn't end worse for the driver and her family than it did.

[Fishslayer]

Originally Posted by Doug M.

Then: The trooper's tactics suck. They are awful. When she stops again, he should never have approached the vehicle.

Watching the video it looked like the officer completely blew his cool on the second stop. If the driver was armed and meant to do him harm...well...

NM LE has been getting a lot of attention lately.

[JcMack]

The officer involved in the original stop made a mistake approaching the vehicle after the second stop. She was desperate enough (for whatever reason or maybe she was being kidnapped) to drive away the first time so maybe there was a second person in the van pointing a gun at her or the officer behind the blacked out windows. Then that same officer pretty much loses it and tries to force her out. He should have stayed in his car, called in with his situation, and calmed down. The officer who shot at the fleeing van is really lucky no one was hurt or killed. He'll be lucky to retain his job.

[keith44spl]

Originally Posted by JcMack

The officer involved in the original stop made a mistake approaching the vehicle after the second stop. She was desperate enough (for whatever reason or maybe she was being kidnapped) to drive away the first time so maybe there was a second person in the van pointing a gun at her or the officer behind the blacked out windows. Then that same officer pretty much loses it and tries to force her out. He should have stayed in his car, called in with his situation, and calmed down.

The officer who shot at the fleeing van is really lucky no one was hurt or killed. He'll be lucky to retain his job.

^^^^^^^^^
Right there it is.....

I investigated an officer involved 'shots fired at a flee vehicle' incident one time, er two.

One that really stands out, was a pursuit in a rural area...

Trooper in pursuit of a jeep (speeding), deal goes off road,
Local Sheriff's Deputies race to back-up Trooper,

While trying to follow jeep across a creek, Trooper's cruiser engine drowns out,
One Deputy fires several shots (3 as best I recall) at fleeing jeep.

Suspect turns self in at sheriff's office next date.
Plead guilty in court to speeding and fleeing/eluding, etc....
Judge puts whole matter on pre-trial diversion.

A year or two later, the same deputy (that fired shots at fleeing jeep) was involved in a shooting, where the suspect is killed (DRT).

DA brings all collected evidence of the incident (shooting) before a Grand Jury.

Now for the twist,
One of the jurors remembers the deputy from the fleeing jeep fiasco from a few years before,

Ask the DA, in front of all the other jurors, "Is this the same trigger-happy cop that shot up that jeep year before last?"

It was touch and go for that officer during that inquest.


Just saying,

Sometimes discretion is the better part of..........


.

[venomballistics]

this one looks like one of those poker games where everyone ignores the cards.
yeah buddy .. they will be played

[feralmerril]

It looked like a video of 1938 Poland with the Nazis taking over. If we try hard to justify this why dont we do deep research and try to justify similar old news reels? Maybe she seen that report last week of how the police there handle body searchs? Anyway that might be a good interesting defense? By the way, how is it a platoon of nazis are handy for a traffic stop? A few more of these and the nation may make a loop around new mexico when they travel.

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by gdnagle

Biggest offender here is the mother she instrumented the whole ordeal.

Amen. To many people she was the 'victim' here.

[feralmerril]

I saw it again. The officer that dragged her out sure wasn't worried that she might have a gun. That wont help the officer that opened up on her or the vehicle.

[duppie]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

Amen. To many people she was the 'victim' here.

That fact was never in contention,however we rely on our highly trained LE professionals to defuse such a common occurrence with intelligence,foresight,training, using the appropriate amount of potentially deadly force for the situation.
Increasingly we've seen instance after instance where this has not been the case. Perps will run...LE training counts on that fact and are trained to act accordingly.
To blame the runner is to not only to state the obvious but in this instance to excuse the supposed professionals.

[OLDFED]

Originally Posted by T.L.R.

Unless the driver of the car had a threatning weapon, I'de sat it is far over reacting to a traffic stop for speeding. No need to be shooting at the vehicle. I never believed in police car chases. All the police have to do is follow the car till it runs out of gas. Then apprehend or whatever. Why put other people in danger. Shooting at a car full of kids over a traffic violation, ( unless the driver had a weapon), is not good law enforcement. Don't these officers get proper training before giving them a badge and a gun ?

TLR says, "All the police have to do is follow the car until it runs out of gas." I suspect he has never been in law enforcement. Anyone with common sense knows that a police "chase" is following the car until it: A. Runs out of gas; B. Wrecks; C. Gets PIT'd; D. Stops and surrenders. A chase can be at high or low speed. So, TLR...why don't we just stop all law enforcement actions? The bad guys can then do whatever they want and we can watch, weep and of course, judge based on what we see on TV.

As far as the shooting...I wasn't there and didn't participate in the investigation, so I can't say what I think. Shame on you for making your judgement without all the facts. You sound like a politician!

[dcxplant]

Bad day for everyone.

I've never done a traffic stop and never will, but that whole event seemed poorly handled by the original officer, the mom, the son, and the shooting officer.

It seems to me the son, as well the mother by her actions have a real problem with police.

They showed a fearless lack of respect for the law. The son especially had that "expletive-the-police" attitude.

[duppie]

Originally Posted by dcxplant

Bad day for everyone.

I've never done a traffic stop and never will, but that whole event seemed poorly handled by the original officer, the mom, the son, and the shooting officer.

It seems to me the son, as well the mother by her actions have a real problem with police.

They showed a fearless lack of respect for the law. The son especially had that "expletive-the-police" attitude.

As another poster alluded to.... the New Mexico police has been in the news as of late and not for their even and fair treatment of the public. I dare say I would be hard pressed to rely on their professionalism in the event of a routine traffic stop these days.
Let's all acknowledge the 10,000 lb gorilla in the room shall we?
The larger population of our fair country not only have questions about but distrust our LEO'S. Fair or not I'll leave for another day and venue but we can't deny certain actions occur in direct relation to that distrust.

[Stevens]

The one at fault for all this is the driver/woman/mother but I fear the officers will be the ones to pay the piper. This will be getting LOTS of air play in the coming days, no telling who will chime in!
Steve W

[old bear]

Her lawyer stated she was afraid of losing her kids. Well DUH! This after she refused an officer's orders, fled the stop, etc, etc.

Feared losing her kids, that doesn't happen over a minor traffic offense. That has to be one of the most overused excuses of the 21st century. Give me a break, will ya.

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by feralmerril

It looked like a video of 1938 Poland with the Nazis taking over. If we try hard to justify this why dont we do deep research and try to justify similar old news reels? Maybe she seen that report last week of how the police there handle body searchs? Anyway that might be a good interesting defense? By the way, how is it a platoon of nazis are handy for a traffic stop? A few more of these and the nation may make a loop around new mexico when they travel.

I tend to do that anyhow.
reported or not, its the battle ground of the US mexican war.
Don't get any on ya folks

[JcMack]

Ain't it sad what passes for a "mom" these days.

[george minze]

No winners here........Maybe New Mexico is haveing a hard time...Couple of weeks ago the body search scanario was about as crazy as I have heard about.....I guess N.M. has a good officer defense fund.......Of course the mom was wrong, that doesn't mean we (law enforcement) need to compond the situation....I just don't know how you can justify the shots fired under these circumstances....

[M29since14]

You can't.

[DeathGrip]

More than one child exited the van. The shooting officer had to see it so that excuse don't wash.

[feralmerril]

I heard there was 5 kids in the van.

[redneckemt]

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselfs. How is a bunch of people who aren't Cops know so much about Police tactics?

And comparing LEOs with Nazis. May the Ban Hammer fall fast.

[DeadAye]

Originally Posted by george minze

No winners here........Maybe New Mexico is haveing a hard time...Couple of weeks ago the body search scanario was about as crazy as I have heard about.....I guess N.M. has a good officer defense fund.......Of course the mom was wrong, that doesn't mean we (law enforcement) need to compond the situation....I just don't know how you can justify the shots fired under these circumstances....

*We* can't see what the people in the van were doing - The cops could........

[rwsmith]

Originally Posted by duppie

That fact was never in contention,however we rely on our highly trained LE professionals to defuse such a common occurrence with intelligence,foresight,training, using the appropriate amount of potentially deadly force for the situation.
Increasingly we've seen instance after instance where this has not been the case. Perps will run...LE training counts on that fact and are trained to act accordingly.
To blame the runner is to not only to state the obvious but in this instance to excuse the supposed professionals.

I don't think my statement 'excused' the supposed professionals.

[duppie]

Originally Posted by rwsmith

I don't think my statement 'excused' the supposed professionals.

No it did not but does a"expletive the police"attitude warrant getting shot at?
You see you have to earn my respect LEO or not...I give every one the respect they deserve at first meeting and then adjust accordingly...you're talking about a 15 year old kid basically standing up for his mother against a perceived threat, righteous or not I would hope you and I would have done the same thing.

[A10]

Good points have been brought up here. My thoughts:

1. The mother is an irresponsible dipstick
2. The mother needs to spend time in jail
3. The son needs some quality time in Juvie
4. If the cop didn't know there were kids in the van he should have. That is sloppy police work and he will eventually suffer for it, either from this incident or in the future when he runs up against a REAL bad group of people.

My conclusion, from the little I know, is the cop let his badge get in the way of good judgement. I had lots of folks either refuse to stop or run off when I got out of the car. I'd chase them until help arrived and we could either road block them or get them into a situation where they had to stop. Once that happened they were usually "motivated" out of the vehicle (had one trucker who didn't think the police dog could jump high enough to get into the cab. He ended up having a real bad day).

[venomballistics]

Originally Posted by redneckemt

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselfs. How is a bunch of people who aren't Cops know so much about Police tactics?

And comparing LEOs with Nazis. May the Ban Hammer fall fast.

we get that way by hanging out with a bunch of cops on this forum.
In fact, it seems the LEO's are scratching their heads on this one as well.
Between this and some other lovely news coming out of NM, I'm starting to wonder just what is going on there.