Is it still a valid milestone in baseball? 600 seems more realistic given that there are now eight players with more than 600 home runs and 26 that now have 500+ and three with over 700.

On a side note, I believe that Hank Aaron is the legitimate HR king. Even though I am from St. Louis and enjoyed watching Puhols for 11 years I believe he was a juicer as well as lying about his age.

Also, at the end of WWII there were only three 500 homerun hitters. Five more added by the end of the '60s. 11 have done it since 1990, more than in all of previous baseball history.

if they are using PED's then 600 is probably right. if they aren't using PED's then 500 is still a legitimate goal.

You think Pujols was a juicer? Weren't they checking the players regularly while he was in St. Louis?
I was a huge fan until he left the city that put him in superstar territory. Now, not so much.

__________________
Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

I believe he was mainly because his only comment about it has been "I never tested positively". Never a denial.

As far as testing, how long did Lance Armstrong escape detection?

If that's his only comment then it's as good as a confession.

__________________
Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

That is my take. There was a St. Louis sports radio guy named Kevin Slaten (who is admittedly an ***) that always called Puhols out on that statement. Puhols never commented.

Forget 500. Drop the drugs and give them a diet of hot dogs and beer for one season and none of the new guys would hit it past the mound.

I'll take Ruth for 714 Alex.

Well put, as usual!

But I still think Aaron was a magnificent player (not just a hitter), and was and is a real class act.

It would sadden me to get confirmation that Pujols juiced; but I had already lost a lot of respect for him when he left the city that loved and admired him, and made him very, very rich. It was a no-class move.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

Why do you discount Aaron?

Not intentional. I just don't think he ate hot dogs.

EDITED TO ADD SOME WORDS

They fired Slaten and Clark instantly when Pujols lawyer called. How much more of reaction did you want him to have?

Pujols is a class act, I don't know why he moved on, but until someone has something other than innuendo and rumors to say about him, I'm not buying it.

JMO

You have to look at the total number of players. More players means more opportunities to get to 500. There are now 30 teams, not 16 as when Ruth played. Aaron and Mays played half their careers with 16 MLB teams, the other half (post 1962) with 20. There are just more opportunities these days, and the ballparks are way different. Much smaller overall. Sure, the Polo Grounds in the fifties was only 258 down the right field line, but the power alley was 395 and dead center was 483. That over-the-shoulder catch Mays made in the 1954 World Series would have been a home run in every ballpark in MLB today. The video crops it out, but newspaper photos of it show to his left a distance sign on the fence that reads 458.

Also, the pitching is diluted with more teams - a lot of guys starting in the majors now would never even have made it out of AAA in the sixties. Do the math; with 16 teams and a four man pitching rotation, you have roster spots for 64 starting pitchers. With 30 teams and a five man rotation, that's 150. No way every one of those extra 86 guys are Major League quality - they're just cannon fodder. Add the mound being lowered 5" in 1969 (The "Bob Gibson rule") and you have less dominant pitching.

You can pretty much dismiss from the list Bonds, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, A-Rod & Manny Ramirez as juicers. Pujols as well if you wish. I think Frank Thomas, Jim Thome and Junior Griffey were clean - there hasn't even been a whiff of suspicion on them.

Slaten had been after Puhols for years. Puhols never reacted until Clark said he "knew" Puhols juiced. Slaten has been fired from every station in STL.

If you think Puhols is a class act you don't know his reputation.

Mantle did it with bad knees and a pickled liver...

__________________
I used to be disgusted..

Mantle and Maris were my heroes growing up in Brooklyn in the 60s. Heck the entire Yankees team in that era was the stuff of legend.

I agree zzzippper Hank Aaron is the Home Run King. He and many players that I watched as a kid were class acts. Two of my favorites were Ernie banks and Ron Santo. A number of todays players in all sports seem only interested in themselves not the team.

The only honest player that had a legitimate shot at catching and passing Aaron was Griffey. Until he got hurt and stayed hurt for a while.

As far as Bonds and the others, they will always have an * next to their names.

500 should still be the benchmark. Even though pitching is diluted, there are more "specialists" now more than ever.

__________________
Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

According to who? Pujols is a well known Christian speaker and nice guy.

It's pretty obvious you've got an axe to grind on this subject, for whatever reason. Have a nice night, it's not worth arguing about it to me.

Willie Stargell and Roberto Clemente come to mind immediately.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

I was a Mantle fan even though I hated the Yankees. I have read estimates that the deep center field fence in Yankee Stadium cost him 10-20 home runs per year for the first part of his career. I haven't been able to find it in recent years, but I swear I remember a quote from Mantle . . . . . something along the lines that "if I had played my career in Atlanta/Fulton County Stadium I would have hit 1000 home runs." Maybe hyperbole, but Atl Stadium was a real "Launching Pad." Ruined a lot of pitchers. Makes Phil Niekro's accomplishments just that much more amazing.

That said, I believe Aaron has as much claim to "the best there ever was" as most anyone, except Ruth. Somebody supposedly said that Aaron did everything Mays did, except his cap didn't fly off.

Babe Ruth is the greatest athlete in American history. He was just about the best pitcher in the league before they moved him to the outfield. I believe he had 95 or so victories. He was hitting 50 homers per year when most teams didn't hit that many. As was said, he did it fueled by beer and hotdogs.

__________________
Georgia On My Mind

^^^This.

I kinda chuckle when I think how long Barry would have posed admiring a homer with Gibson or Drysdale on the mound. Drysdale would throw at ya if he LIKED ya!

3-0 in the World Series with .87 ERA.

I certainly hope Jim Thome was clean. When he played for the Phillies from 03-05, he looked like the Michelin Man... There are other players, Pudge Rodriguez comes to mind, who also seemed to 'deflate' when suspicions were aroused.

I loved watching Mickey Mantle, what few games were televised in the 60s. Never a showboat, he was quoted saying that he hit 536 HRs and never saw one land in the stands. Also, when the team held its late season meeting (there were many) to determine who would get shares (and partial shares) of World Series $, Mantle would always sit in the first row and raise his hand for part-time players to get a full share. Others would vote as he did, not challenging him.

After Mantle retired, later players reported that when they came to the Yankees, he always welcomed them. Willie Randolph said Mantle was gracious and did not "Hall of Fame" him when he was traded from the Bucs, I believe.

Let me stop, it's 1AM and I could go on about Mantle indefinitely.

Ted hit only 521 career home runs.

But he had a second job also in the United States Marine Corps.

e8a70338-ea6b-4c2a-b6e8-9a1fe443f09f_zpsf2c7f69e.png Photo by jairadio | Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q390/jairadio/e8a70338-ea6b-4c2a-b6e8-9a1fe443f09f_zpsf2c7f69e.p@@AMEPARAM@@349.photobucket.com/albums/q390/jairadio/e8a70338-ea6b-4c2a-b6e8-9a1fe443f09f_zpsf2c7f69e.p

I wonder if he didn't have that second job, what that total could have been.

__________________
Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

Hi labworm: VERY good point. Ted wasn't the only one to lose substantial time and he chose to serve in Korea. Many MLBers surrendered 3,4,and more years to serve to protect our country in WWII.

Hank Greenberg was every bit the Triple Crown slugger that Ruth, Gehrig and Foxx were, but he was drafted early in 1941 and didn't return until the end of the '45 season. You can look up the stats. Pitcher Bob Feller gave 4 years to serve in the U.S. Navy, an anti-aircraft gunner aboard a battleship.

A book was written about this very subject not too long ago, sorry I missed it. We should never forget the sacrifices made by all our veterans.

Lab, I did the math once (I must have been really bored that day) on Williams and Mays (In the Army '52 and '53 for Korea but did not see combat, unlike Williams) to see if they might have hit 715 before Aaron. Using averages is certainly not exact, but I think I remember Williams would have had ~700 if he'd still retired in 1960 - I think being that close he may have decided to come back for one more year to try to break it. Mays would in theory have hit ~720; which if he was that close, do the Giants still trade him to the Mets? Or do they keep him so he can break the record as a Giant?

Mantle was hampered by his leg injuries; that sprinkler head didn't wreck his career but it sure hindered it. If he'd had access to the medical science of today...

You also have to remember that back in the day, baseball was not a full time job for most players. Players routinely had second jobs in the off season to make ends meet. Today, baseball is a full time job - the minute the season is over these guys are prepping for next season. They work out year round and take way better care of their bodies than their counterparts from the 40s, 50s, 60s, etc...

As far as Bonds goes, he had Hall of Fame numbers prior to juicing. He could have retired from the Pirates and made the Hall no sweat. It's a shame he was so jealous of all the guys whackin homers that he jumped on the steroid bandwagon. Doesn't help that he was jerk on top of everything else.

Bill White was Gibson's roomate and close friend until he was traded to the Phillies in 1965. The first time he came up against Gibson after the trade Gibson hit him, kind of telling him they weren't buddies any more. Bill White said he would have expected no less.

__________________
LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Not to denigrate Ted Williams in any way(I'm old enough to remember him well), I believe the truth is Ted was "called up" for Korea and wasn't happy about it. WW II was one thing(Feller enlisted on 12/8/41), but war in Korea was never popular....it was pre-Viet Nam.

I am a Cardinals fan and admire Albert Pujols. In spite of this, I long believed he was juicing. That enormous body was the first clue...reminded me of Sosa and McGuire. Now recently his body is beginning to break down....the fate of other juicers....think ARod. I know fans can't stand the thought but sooner or later you'll have to face it.

__________________
Bob.
SWCA 1821

Starting to drift the thread a bit but I'm a big Gibby fan. He hated opposing players and would not speak to them on the field. None of this joking around with the first baseman when he got on. All Star games must have been a lot of fun.

People always said Gibson was protecting the inside part of the plate. He says no, the outside was "his" and if you leaned out into his territory that's when he would get you.

There is a story about Cardinals shortstop Dal Maxville getting spiked on a double play ball against the Dodgers and Drysdale. When the spiker came up to bat Gibson turned around on the mound and looked at Maxville to see if he wanted payback. Maxville shook his head and waved his hands NO. He knew that if Drysdale knew he ordered the hit batsman that Don would take him out of his spikes on his next at bat.

And last. I believe it was a World Series game, Tim McCarver walked out to the mound. Gibson glared at him and said, "the only thing you know about good pitching is that you can't hit it!"

500 Homer Club

I expected to see a bunch of these guys sitting around at a clubhouse.

Somewhat off-topic trivia question for you about three members of the 600+ HR club. Besides the obvious (the hitting stats), what oddity do Aaron, Ruth and Mays have in common?

I've met one of them, he was a monster back in the 60s and was known for his 500 ft home runs.



I just happened to make a superb catch of a ball at a Memphis Redbirds Triple A game maybe 10 years ago and Harmon Killebrew was upstairs in a suite. Signed a bunch of stuff for free and seemed to be a real nice guy. Got my soveneir signed. Unfortunately He passed away a few years ago. First thing I notced was that he really wasn't a very large guy, 5' 10" at most, not terribly heavy either. Not a monster.

By the way did you know Triple A baseballs are made in China?

__________________
LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

I give up, what is it?

They all started and ended their careers in the same city, but with different teams.

Ruth - Boston Red Sox / Boston Braves
Mays - New York Giants / New York Mets
Aaron - Milwaukee Braves / Milwaukee Brewers

It's been a pretty good bar trivia bet.

That goes for the pitchers, too.

Me and my brother were following the Cardinals on a road trip to Boston and NYC. We were there the night Clemons won his 300th game and got his 4000th strikeout. Years later I felt pretty silly for having cheered him and then finding out he was juicing.

Former MLB mgr Whitey Herzog related how in 1961, the year Roger Maris broke the HR record, the day after the World Series ended, Maris helped Herzog to build his house.

This would probably be forbidden now by contract.

Another thing to consider is the huge improvements in training (physical) and technology for training (skills). The data that teams have at their disposal is also amazing.

Rob

Did anybody mention DH?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Mention it? I try to not even think of this travesty.

Any ballgame that has 10 players a side needs to have a beer keg at first base.

Not sure if Griffey, Jr had any too much better shot at passing Barry than Aroid. And we know what happened to that outright cheater. (And I'm a first, last and always NYY fan.) The thing about 500HR is that it will easily be achieved by others fior a few simple reasons: smaller parks, smaller strikezones and pitchers basically unable to knock down hitters. You get a rep for beanballing you get tossed or suspended straight away. (And I remember Mantle once saying the reason he hustled around the bases after hitting a HR was so he wouldn't show up the pitcher--he knew he'd be an immediate target for brush backs.) The way the game is played now, by the massively OVERPAID sans loyalty me first kind of guys can only result in more players reaching both 500 HR and/or 3000 hits. Each of those used to be more a noteworthy achievement than today. Now, don't get me wrong--I LOVE the game, and loved playing it. But the general line of thought of too many players now makes me shake my head, wishing for the ''standards'' of old.