I have been looking to buy a new 20 or 12 gauge pump for home defense use. While I consider the Ithaca to be the best in that regard they are hard to find new. So I have narrowed it down to a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870. In light of all of the QC problems at Remington I have decided to go with a Mossberg, yet many new reviews claim it is a fragile piece due to the plastic trigger group. Is this something new, or have Model 500s always been on the fragile side of pumps?

I think the Marines use Mossys (sorry could not help myself).
Me-I use my remmy, Regarding quality control-they've been making 870's since the 50's and I would suspect that even new management could not screw up a great design like that. Try it out in the store first-make sure that nothing wiggles when it is in battery.Then cycle it very fast. It ought to go "shu-shank" (the new ones don't go "rack rack" anymore) and not have any (too much) gritty feeling. If it fails this test get them to pull another one out the back. Make sure you examine it carefully-I didn't when I bought mine and it had a rust spot on the receiver on the other side that looked like a drop of something had got to it. Nothing catastrophic but it pissed me off on a new gun-even though one that would see hard use. I cleaned it up and squirted a dab of bar b que flat black paint on the spot and have not had any problems since.Stock was plastic but it had a plastic corn cob forearm which I liked. Took the skill saw and cut about an inch of the stock cause it was too long and put the pad back on and I'm good to go.
We ain't talking Parkers no.

You are right about the Ithica's though-the cool factor is off the charts. But the 870, and I suspect the 500 also, are so ubiquitous that they'll always be easy to fix and spare parts abound. I would think that if you are into after market takital stuphph though Remington would have the edge.

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Forum consigliere

Don't leave out the Benelli supernova tactical. Not any more money than some of the Mossbergs or Remington's.

The Mossberg 12ga with a pistol grip stock and the door breacher barrel is a fierce looking combo---lots of intimidation factor there!! And as Caj said, the 870 is a fine piece too--look in most police cruisers, they'll most likely have an 870 or a 500 in the rack.
olcop

i got a mosberg 590 eight shot older one with heat shield on top functions great home gun or car gun simple and accurate 2and 3/4, 00 buck

Go old school...Winchester 1897 Riot. Cool factor out the wazoo.

Let's talk cool factor. An intruder would be honored to meet this sweet little 1946 Model 12. Why get shot with just a Pardner Pump?

Attached Images

model 12 left.jpg (94.8 KB, 131 views)

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LIVE FROM THE DAWGHOUSE

Smith & Wesson nickel marine



Mossberg, Winchester & Remington BBQ guns

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God spelled backwards is dog.

In my opinion, the finish and the wood used on the 870 Express leave a lot to be desired. I have an older Wingmaster with a 20" barrel and magazine extension. They're nicely blued and have walnut stocks. You can still find these for a decent price. There has to be a reason it's the most popular shotgun ever produced.

I like the Mossberg, it's a great gun, I just like the Remington better.

My choice: Remington 870 Marine Magnum

I would check to see what the local and state LEO's in your area carry in their cruisers.
As others have said, you can't go wrong with the Remington 870, get a short barrel for home defense and a long barrel for duck hunting.

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"Life is short, hunt hard"

Mine is a Remington 870 Express Magnum, black, 18" barrel,5 shot, 12 Ga. plain except for a slip on 5 shell holder on the stock.
Steve W

If the Ithaca is your first choice I'd go with that.

Their are a lot of new ones listed on Gunbroker if you can't find one local.

Personally I prefer the older ones.

That’s my house gun also. As I have large 4 legged animals also, the quick to grab gun is loaded 5 rounds 00 buck followed by 4 slugs. (more available)

As menacing as they look the pistol grip only types are rather hard kicking and thusly hard to control, stay with a full stock. Do not fall for that old bull excrement thing about racking the action will scare people away, be ready to go and you will also have one more round in the gun.

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14 S&W Revs none with locks!

I have a 12 ga. Mossberg Persuader. I mounted a light and a Limbsaver along with some other stuff. 9 round tube sold me.

I take it out back and shoot it occasionally to practice and make sure it is working well. I trust it as a line of defense to protect my family.

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paws for friendship

I've got one similar to the first, albeit now only partially blued. It was my first modern firearm.

Ithaca has moved to Ohio from New York. Now that I've got a real job again, I might send it to them to get worked over (shell stop problems).

Until the widow of a deceased friend gave me his shotgun (which he FOUND in the wall of his home!), it was the only shotgun I'd ever owned or intended to own.

A shotgun is nearly useless for self-defense in my rat hole apartment, but I have no intention of ever getting rid of it.

I have the 590...took off the silly heat shield and feed speed stock and put on a Hogue with a shorter LOP...much handier for the house...sorry for the lousy pic...



I love the old Ithacas also, but for me, they are expensive for a house gun. If you do grab an Ithaca, the 8 shots are nice but it you don't think you need 8 rounds, go for the 18 1/2" 4 shot model...they are less wieldy than the 20" and have a nicer balance to them...we had them in the LASD and most of us miss them since they were replaced with the heavier retractable stocked 870s...

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I have and used most of the older ones, ie. Win. 97's 12's, Savage 520's , Ithaca 37's , Hi-Standard's , Mossberg's , Remington 17's 29's 31's and of course 870's. Of all of them, in my opinion, the Remington Wingmaster Police Riotgun is the best. The Remington 870 Express which is the gun most found{because of price} is different than the 870 Wingmaster and not as well made or internally finished as well . It will work but still is not as good. My second choice of new made shotguns is the Military grade steel rec, Mossberg which is the one the Military uses. Many of the older Model 12's and Ithaca's are equally good only much harder and more expensive to support. Therefore I say go to Remington's better 870 and you will not be sorry. The Remington's coming out Bill Wilson's shop I believe contain up graded parts as well, tho I am not 100% sure of that. All my best, Joe.

I'm a Mossberg man, strictly because I'm left handed, and the Mossberg safety is perfect for me. I've got three, in .410, 20 gauge, and 12 gauge. Never had any trouble.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I'd keep my eye out for a used 12 ga, 3" Remington Wingmaster from the 70s. Forget the parkerized finish because in the house it won't glare anyway. Put a short riot barrel on it or saw yours off, a magazine extension, stock ammo holder, and sling and you'll have a bullet proof tough gun. You don't need fancy schmanzy sights at house ranges either

If the ithaca had the mossy safety, it would be the perfect shotgun.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I agree with that . . . Had one for a while, but traded it for a Mossberg.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Here's 3 of mine. The Mossberg has been sold.

Model 12. Bought used for $250. Added "bling"


Model 1897 from 1902. A former "Adams Express Company" guard gun.


My Mossberg for bears. Tru glo sites and a peep rear..


ps: A police officer (My first shooting instructor) told me he kept a double barrel in his squad car for intimidation factor. This was in L.A. during the Watts Riots.

My choices for my first modern firearm were between a seven shot Ithaca DSPS and a folding stock 870 with extended magazine. I chose the Ithaca and was never sorry. I got it from a little gun store in Harvey, Illinois which is probably long closed.

Truth be told, a double is not a bad house gun , but we are discussing pumps. I also think a double with two triggers is maybe one of the best homeowner semi-trained user's best choice. Sorry for not following my own advice about staying on point. Joe.

12 or 20?
Check for local ammo --- Around here if you can find 20 it's bird shot - Almost anything is available in 12 though.

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In dog years I'm dead.

I have all three and here is my opinion.

The Ithaca IS the best as far as quality and function (ejects from bottom) but is the hardest kicking of the bunch due to its thin wooden stock. Mine is from the 70's and was inherited. The Mossberg works OK, but was a bit cheesy in manufacturing (too much plastic) IMHO. I settled on the 870 for HD but again, mine is not new and was made when they made them right.

That said.......... ANY OF THEM will serve you well as long as you do your part and practice with it. If I recall the Mossberg holds 6+1. the Ithaca 4+1 and the Remington 5+1 if that is a major factor for your decision.

PS: don't forget the secondary (used) market if you really want the Ithaca. Quality wise and functioning wise it's probably the best of the bunch.

For you lefties, the Ithaca would be a great choice too because of the bottom ejection. I am right handed and actually dislike the safety on top (Mossberg) and prefer the traditional push button - but that's just cause all the shotguns I've owned and used (except for the Mossberg) have it that way. Guess I am just use to it there and don't want to have to think about it if & when I need to defend my Home and Family.

Why do you say that? They are still in production - your dealer can order them.

Ithaca Gun Company Official Website

High Standard Riot 7. Sheriff Department trade-in. I got it from the dealer for $145. He had two more just like it, and I wish I had bought them. It is a heavy sucker, though.

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Georgia On My Mind

NOTE:
The older Ithaca Model 37's will fire if you keep the trigger held in and keep pumping (slam-fire) until it's empty. Some like this and others have retrofitted the disconnect type trigger mechanism. The new ones do not have this feature.

Mine doesn't have the disconnector.

Impressed the hell out of the Korean security guards whom I taught to shoot their Winchester 1200!

Those were nice guns. I remember Steve McQueen using one in "The Getaway".

Wish they still made them.

Below is a link to a thread from June about LE handguns and long guns. After reading the posts I was impressed by the number of 870s used by departments from way back to today. Have a look.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/...long-guns.html

Three years ago, I paid $35.00 for this Mossberg 500 with a custom adjustable choke device.



Tried to weasel "Sheriffoconee" out of a barrel for it but wound up selling him the gun to go with his barrel. He told me it took two full cans of Gunscrubber spray to clean the dirt out of the action.

Don't forget a sling. Very handy even for home defense. I set mine up just like our dept guns...simple bungee cord that you can slip over your head. If you need to use both hands all you do is let the gun go and it's still on you.

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Thirty characters. Exactly...

I think for the price of a Mossberg you can't go wrong. Thousands of MIlitary and LE Agencies think the same. Mossberg 500 offers lots of bang for the buck and they also come with the Magpul package, just like the Remington 870 in case you like that.

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Jorge

Me I think it's pretty much apples and oranges as to which pump to get. It's all pretty much what you feel you'd be happy with. I like the 20ga for home use myself even though I keep a double barrel 12ga Stoeger at hand also. I always like the action on the Winchester 1300 pumps and took a hacksaw to one I had a few years back stock and barrel. Made me a great little 20ga home defense scatter gun till my son beat me out of it.

I'd pass on the Express version of the Remington 870 and spring for a Police Magnum or Marine Magnum. Both are assembled on a different assembly line than the former and subjected to more stringent QC.

Edited to Add: If you really insist on a Mossberg, go with the 590A1. That's the "genuine GI" version of the 500 with beefier components.

My Mossberg 500 came with a short barrel & pistol grip in the box. I swap those on for HD. Then I swap the stock & long barrel on for shooting clay pigeons & duck hunting.

It's been flawless for the 10 or 12 years I've owned it, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one.

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-Roger

870 all the way. It's the gun that killed the Model 12 and effectively put Winchester out of business. Mossberg's, Winchester's, and Ithaca's can all be worn to the point they will blow themselves open when fired, but I have never seen an 870 do it yet. It could probably be worn to the point that it would but I haven't seen it in 35 years of working on guns. The 870 is all steel, the Mossberg has an aluminum receiver. The 870 uses the same spacing for the magazine tube, the Ithaca is a fixed length so switching barrels is not easy. Model 12's can of course be tapped but none came with screw in chokes and if that aint enough reasons look at the MagPul stocks for the 870. They have a little rail type light mount that goes on the forend...puts your light right up where it belongs to shine on the front sight. The best advice regarding shotguns is buy every Wingmaster you can find/afford, there is no place for them to go but up in value. One more thing...not brand specific but mossy+winny+remmy+shotty='s rainbows and unicorns. Dude....you can permanently loose your man card for talking like that!!!!!!!

870's are great. No question about it. In the service I had an Ithaca 37 and an 1897 Winchester (at different times). I have had both in short version for home defense. Currently, an 1897 trench version. There is nothing like the sound of a '97 chambering a round (it helps you forget the pain if the bolt catches your thumb knuckle)!
For hunting, I like the 870 Wingmaster, and for trap, an old Winchester 101. Just my taste, others like different things and their suggestions are as valid as mine.

The Remington is superior to the Mossberg, in my opinion.

The Mossberg's plastic trigger group is fragile and the safety often breaks.

Pistol grips look cool, but are slow to me and screw up good shotgun handling.

I wouldn't waste money on magazine extensions: if you can't accomplish what needs doing in a realistic sd situation with 5 shotgun rounds, your problem won't be solved with more ammo.

Get a Remington, take it to the trap range and learn to shoot it.

When you can break 20 out of 25, decide if you really need a pistol grip stock and a magazine extension.

Just my opinion, of course.

Got an Ithaca police in 12ga but my favorite is old Ithaca pump cut to 18.5 in 20 ga. That thing handles great and not as much thump. My shoulder is getting to old for 12ga kick.
Oops..tape measure must be defective...it is 18.5" ...

18" is the legal barrel length for a shotgun, unless you have a stamp.

If it wasn't built in Ithaca, N.Y., it's not a real Ithaca.

Just my opinion, of course. Others may differ.

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'Merica!

I was also going to comment on that 16.5" shotgun barrel. Illegal at that length unless registered as a short gun. Minimum length for a rifle is 16", but it's 18" for a shotgun and don't ask me why the difference.

All of the guns mentioned are good. Any would suffice. Many years ago I shopped for pump 12 for close range anti-personnel use and decided that I liked the price and features on the Mossberg 500. I bought an 18" model then upgraded it to a sporting gun with checkered wood and a longer ribbed barrel. Replaced it with another 500 that was a trade in from a local armored car company. Has a 20" barrel, rifle sites, swivels, and I like the 3" chamber and top mount tang safety. Neither gun has given me any trouble in 30 years.

This is my original gun now wearing the rare 20" vent rib and choke tube barrel. I also have a 24" barrel for it.





This is the 20" security model. Holds 8 rounds of standard and 7 magnums. With 7 rounds of 00 Buck 3" magnums in the tube and 5 rounds of 3" slugs in the butt cuff I feel I can handle anything I may need to shoot.

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No life story has happy end.

I had a Mossberg back in the 1980's. The pistol grip was too thick for me and I sold it. Back in the early 1970's the PD that I worked for sold me an Ithica 37 pump gun for $35.00. It had been carried in a police car for at least 20 years. No engraving on the sides of the receiver. I had it reblued and the bbl cut to 18 inches. It sits in the corner of my bedroom loaded except when the grand kids come over. I have 2 other Ithica's, both hunting gun, one with a vent rib bbl. All are nice reliable guns.

You are correct. Thanks for for catching my goof.