So I'm in the LGS and jawing with the owner, a long-time gun guy with a disdain for small calibers.

"You own any .22's?" I ask him.
"I sell 'em but don't own any rimfires," he responds.
"So you're a big-bore guy I take it," I say.
"Yup."
"What about a 30-30?" I rejoin, adding "I sold my Marlin 336 lever and always regretted it."
"That's a wimpy caliber," he sneers.
"Would you stand in front of one?" I say sarcastically.
"No, but it's out of date," comes the answer.

Other guys in the store overhear this and just about everyone takes his side and say the 30-30 is "puny," "underpowered" and make other disparaging comments.

"No real velocity," one guys says.
"Killed a lot of deer but there are much better rounds," says another.

Here I am, a rimfire guy mainly on the defense. I also shoot 7.62x39 out of my SKS and 7.62x54R out of my Mosin and think they've got plenty of pop. That's enough centerfire for me.

But this bunch is talking up Nitro Express, .45 Colt, 500 S&W and so forth, like they're all hot-shot big-game hunters.

Far as I'm concerned, bullet placement trumps all. A .22LR aimed center mass will do more than a .308 Lapua that just wings someone.

Any of you run into what I call "caliber arrogance"?

Yep all the time. My favorite is the one guy who said that the 7.62 x39 is "not powerful enough". No other comment, just not powerful enough. For what? Sure it won't slay any dragons but it's still plenty powerful.

I love it when guys argue what better to shoot a deer with 3006, 308, 3030, and all the other 30 cal calibers. Around here the dear are about 100 lbs and most shots are under 100 yards

I agree that shot placement is key.

Sounds as if these guys have more testosterone them logic.

More deer have been brought down with 30-30's than with any other caliber, at least in my state.

The lever action 30-30 is a good caliber and perfect for deer size game. With that said I have a Henry Big Boy in .357 Magnum/ 38 special in-case I need the extra velocity (less flash/ kick) but it is more so that the sidearm caliber matches the rifle. You know how old cowboys would use the same caliber ammo in their pistols as they would their rifles. A .38 special round will kill with good shot placement as the 30 30.

Everything is relative. When the .30-30 was introduced (about 1895 if I recall correctly) it was the first commercial cartridge loaded with smokeless powder, widely touted as being a very flat-shooting cartridge. Of course, it was being compared to the more common big-bore black powder cartridges, or to some other Winchesters chambered for pistol-size cartridges (.44-40, .32-20, etc). Telescopic sights were pretty uncommon, considered to be rich mens' playthings, and 200 or 300 yards was considered to be very long range shooting.

I've been shooting .30-30 Winchesters for nearly 50 years, reloading for them for over 40 years, and casting bullets for them nearly as long. Raised my two sons with .30-30's as their first centerfire hunting rifles. We have eaten a ton of game taken with .30-30's over the years. I doubt that either of my sons, or any of my grandchildren, have ever fired a round of factory ammo in the .30-30's. Each brings or mails the fired brass back to old Grampa's house where it is turned back into loaded ammo for the next use.170-grain RNFP-GC cast bullet, 30-grains H335, each box costing me about $3 or $4 to produce, that's the standard load. For young shooters just starting out in centerfire to practice with, or for smaller game, I load the same bullet over 8-grains of Unique.

I consider the .30-30 to be a very versatile cartridge suitable for most North American game, especially when handloading for specific purposes is part of the equation. It has obvious limitations, as any other cartridge does, such as a maximum effective range of about 150 yards or so in most rifles (and most shooters), and not the rifle I would choose if buffalo or grizzlies were expected. But more than capable of handling deer, and I wouldn't hesitate to use on Rocky Mountain elk within 100 yards.

The Model 94 Winchester carbines are lightweight, easy to carry all day, about as rugged as anything ever made, fast handling in the woods, with modest recoil that isn't beyond the typical shooter's ability to handle.

I have other rifles in other calibers (bigger and smaller) but none that I really enjoy more.

Sure. There are several guys around here who'd hunt deer with a 50 BMG if they could afford one.

I believe it is borne out of ignorance, and compensating for a small anatomical part.

Personally I like the .30-30 as a good general purpose rifle. I've only got two Winchester 94s in that caliber though...could use a few more.

I saw that the OP mentioned .45 Colt being touted by the "other side." I'm not sure in what context, but that round predates the .30-30 by a good number of years. Also a "slow" cartridge that has been "improved upon" over the years, yet it is still efficient for hunting or self defense. There really isn't anything new under the sun.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Guess you old timers just don't get it, you have to have the newest fastest super whizbang magnum to kill a deer. Nothing less will do the job.

I'm with ya though, my 2 current favorite guns to shoot are a S&W 30-1 in 32 long and a Marlin 1894 in .357 but mostly shoots .38 specials.

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What would Josey Wales do?

Lever actions in .30-30 was the popular rifle in deer camps in our northern zone. My Remington 700 in 30.06 was always the odd gun in the camps I was in. Most of the shooting there was in thick woods and up close and I have to admit I missed opportunities because I couldn't get a proper sight picture through my scope but my buddies didn't have that problem with their .30-30s and brought home their deer. I don't remember a case where they didn't have enough gun either.
Today though things have changed and my rifle wouldn't be out of place and even bigger guns are now the norm as the bigger is better attitude has caught on.

What counts is the fact that the round is and has been a VERY useful cartridge. Important enough for me is its association with the lever action rifle which is my favorite configuration. The 30-30 cartridge is a lot like the S&W model 10. It doesn't need fixing because there is nothing wrong with it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

I'm not a hunter(I have no moral or ethical oppositions to hunting, and recognize that it performs a valuable role in wildlife management. It's just not for me for a number of reasons).

With that said, I always listen to caliber discussions with regard to hunting with a lot of interest.

Here in Kentucky, the regulations state that any centerfire rifle or handgun is legal for deer hunting. This means one could theoretically use anything from .25 ACP to .700 Nitro Express. The only real restrictions are a magazine capacity of no more than 10 rounds(again, for hunting deer, not a general restrictions), no full auto, and no FMJs or tracers.

From what I see at the ranges around hunting season(a time I generally avoid public ranges, since it's the only time of the year many hunters get their guns out), "traditional" hunting calibers like .270, 30-06, .308, and even 30-30 remain dominant.

Last year, I had a discussion with a co-worker who had gone hunting the previous weekend with his .308, and convinced himself that he was going to need to buy either a 7mm Magnum or 300 Win Mag because he'd shot a deer and it hadn't dropped immediately.

I didn't say much, but from what I know about deer I'd guess that he needs to work on shot placement with his 308 rather than buying a more powerful caliber.

If I were to ever go deer hunting, I'd likely use my lever action 357 Magnum. If I used a handgun it would be my 8" S&W model 27 or possibly my Blackhawk in 45 Colt. If I can't do it with any of those, I'd guess that the problem is more like me than my gun.

And, since I've rambled along for a while without really addressing the original point-a Winchester 94 is a gun on my "check list." When I get one, it will more than likely be in 30-30, although a nice one in 32 Winchester Special could fill the 94 nicely as well and would probably bump out a similar gun in 30-30.

More deer have been killed by the 30-30 to this day even if we add up all the other calibers up together the 30-30 still wins.

I'm going to say more deer and black bears have been killed by the 30-30 too.

The next lever action that's not too far behind the 30-30 is the 35 Remington. Every old hunter I ran into either has a 30-30 or a 35 Remington.

I have a 35 Remington.

Shot placement is the key. Practice, practice and more practice. I put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds with my 338wm benchrested. I stood up hand held and made four shots in rapid fire at four different bullseyes and was 1" from each x @ 100yds. I been shooting 30-06's since I could own a gun. The 338wm was my choice to bump up from the 30cal. bolt action rifles. With its 4,000ft.lbs. @ muzzle and 2,700ft.lbs. @ 200 yards this old caliber can still drop them dead on the spot. It's got a tad more kick over the '06.

After getting into some close calls with animals in the thick pines going the other way I bumped up to a bigger caliber.

I have a 50 year old "94" in 30-30. Never let me down, dropped everything it was asked to drop and never asked for much in return. Up until recently, I checked in at 6'2" and 238 lbs. The "whimpy" cartridge let my shoulder know every time it left home. If this round is "whimpy", then I need to hang my handicapped placard on the barrel so the deer will let me park up front and let me club them with the butt plate. Hate to run but it's pudding night at the "home".

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Music/Sports/Beer fan

Wow, glad that LGS isn't around here

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

I think .30-30 is no longer sufficient because deer have gotten tougher over the years:

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Women would refer to that type of conversation as a "swinging" contest. You should have asked them what they use on squirrels, a .270?

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

If you want to get real technical, they're actually talking out of their collective ***.

The .30-30 is a cartridge, not a caliber.

The .30-30 is a .30 caliber - the same caliber as a .308, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, .300 Wby Mag, and .300 Ultra Mag.
I'll bet a couple of those cartridges would be favored by your LGS weekend-warriors, and they'd pucker up if you told them that their Ultra Mag was a "wimpy caliber".


Now, back to the .30-30....
If you do your job, the .30-30 has no trouble doing it's job.
Keep in mind that the .30-30 is ballistically similar to a 12 Ga. shotgun - how many of them would accuse a 12 Ga of being "wimpy"?

How dead do they want dead?

A gun shop preachin' that mularkey in these parts wouldn't survive a season.

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paws for friendship

When I'm asked how hard any caliber kicks I say it's no harder than a 12ga?

A lot of folks it seems have fallen prey to the gun and ammunition makers, bigger, faster and more powerful. That's all well and good if the game and ranges to said game warrants it. If you hunt whitetails in the deep woods a 30-30 and like cartridges are just the ticket. If you hunt larger game at extended range the 30-30 is not the best choice. That's why there are different calibers and cartridges for them and to dismiss and demean one just because its not your cup of tea is just plain old ignorance on several levels.

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Stay safe people!

.....Besides, everybody knows that the .30-06 is King!

We all have some caliber arrogance.
Most can agree on the suck factor of the 25 auto.
Through the powder crunch, calibers like 30-30, 45-70, 32special and the rest of the old wheezin geezers have been the best show in town.
Even at the worst points, I never failed to find a no compromise powder to feed them.
After taking notes from loading 32 special for my father's 94, I added a 45-70.
It's hard to call a 45-70 wimpy, but even the 50 BMG is a woose with an empty chamber.

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it just needs more voltage

When I'm alone in the wilds when I'm tracking paws that are bigger than my 13" sorrel insulated boots this is when a bigger caliber is better. You can never have too much gun during bear season.

Now during deer season I'm happy with my 6,5mm Swede mauser or my 7mm mauser. Even a 7,62x39 154gr bullet will do the job.

I don't call the 30-30 wimpy I just don't have one yet. Will my 35 Remington do?

The old Vermont farmer who hunted with us seen my 444 bullets on my belt. He said son we don't have elephants in Vermont. I said with all due respect sir as you can see I'm not built for running nor speed. He laughed and agreed. He was a crack shot with a 30-30. He was hunting bear in the light snow with a famous local bear Hunter. They tracked the bear till they caught up to it. The other guy shot first and his semi auto jammed. He was screaming run, run as the bear charged them. The old farmer said run he'll as he emptied his 30-30 into the charging bear when it finally dropped 10' in front of them. The old farmer said he's too old to hunt bears.

This old farmer could put two bullets thru the same hole at 144yards. That was the longest distance from his front porch on his 625 acre farm to the farthest fence post.

I've seen the 338wm pick up a black bear and spin it around in the air and drop it upside down like a dead cockaroach. It was like 25yards from us. It walked right up on us after something spooked it from behind. The year before we looked for a wounded bear someone shot. When butchering this bear I found a perfect 30 caliber bullet had stopped in the meat and healed over I found the wounded bear we looked for the year before someone shot it in the butt. I was taught if you don't have a good kill shot let it go. It's hunting ethics for a fast clean kill.

I still miss my Marlin 336 in .30-30. My son successfully hunts Pennsylvania deer with a 336 in .35 Remington--he passed on a nice .257 Roberts to buy the .35.

Mostly, since I'm no longer physically able to hunt, I encounter the caliber arrogance (nice phrase) when people find out my EDC and home defense handguns are .38 Special revolvers. But like the grand old .30-30, .38 Special has been in production as long as it has because it works.

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Oh well, what the hell.

....liking the wimpy, underpowered lever-action 30-30 to the out classed, out dated 38s revolver!

Both work great in my world.

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paws for friendship

I was raised on 30-30 Marlins, my oldest now has mine, and I have Dad's. It is the only non milsurp rifle in the safe, and the others are .30 caliber as well. I have never hunted where a 30-30 wasn't up to the distance. All but one of my handguns shoot .38, though a couple will eat .357 as well. This group of old steel firearms will do everything I need them to do.

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Dave

Re: OP. Hum... opinions are like noses, everyone has one. Some opinions are actually based on fact. Others are as irregular as a broken nose.

You share company with a innumerable host of men who understand and value the .22 LR for the superlative accuracy and utility it offers on the range and in the field. Once one masters the .22 LR the skills and discipline developed will directly transfer when one is shooting one of the center-fire calibers.

Once upon a time if you wanted power in a rifle, you had no choice but to use a larger bore and a heavier bullet. The looping trajectories that resulted made hits at long range difficult. When the .30-30 appeared, people were amazed that 200 yd. hits were so much easier. Theodore Roosevelt early on sang it's praises. Others less notable used it to kill virtually everything that walks, crawls or slithers in North America.

With the product improvements that have been made in gun powder, bullets, rifles and sights, the .30-30 of today is far beyond what our grandfathers may have used at the dawn of the 20th century. In the hands of everyday hunters and marksmen, the .30-30 today continues to kill just about any type of game animal men may choose to hunt. As with any other rifle caliber, there are situations where it will be ideal and there are situations where it will be less than ideal. For the overwhelming vast majority of hunting, game animals are shot at less than 150 yds., mostly around 100 yds. At such ranges, the .30-30 has more than enough horsepower for whatever one might be shooting. From eastern whitetail right on up to heavy game like moose, caribou and bear, the .30-30 is fully up to the task. Use a quality bullet suited to the task at hand. Know what you are doing with your rifle. Know the anatomy of the game animal you are hunting so that you know where to place the bullet to get into and through the vital organs. Use a moderately heavy bullet... 170 gr. and 190 gr. (as with the .30 Savage) and you will put game on the ground. JMHO. Sincerely. brucev.

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<><

Has anyone checked Buffulo Bore's 30-30 offering? I would be hesitant to shoot one of those.

I've shot wimpy 30-30 rounds which recoiled not much more than a .22LR. It was factory ammo made/imported by PMC. It was a lot of fun to shoot but unfortunately, they stopped producing it. I've also shot pretty heavy 30-30 loads that left a sizable bruise on my shoulder after an afternoon of shooting.

The 30-30 has a wide range of loadings.

I once cartwheeled a wild boar on the run at a laser ranged 460 yards.

Did it with an early Mini 30.

Not supposed to be possible with that cartridge OR rifle.

I was using home loaded 125g rounds, but since I have switched to 150g NBT.

It ain't the arrow, it's the indian.

30-30 gets a bad rep for the blunt nosed and non efficient aerodynamics leading it to bleed off velocity. Within its range, it's devastating.

I seriously doubt if there is a real need for over three or four center fire cartridges made out of all the many there is. Of course some are made for people who wanted a short action, and then rimless counterparts for semi auto`s etc. The real biggest reason for more different cartridges has to be the same reason as auto makers change styles every year. If there was no model changes in many years the market would be saturated and nobody would want anything new because there wouldnt be any "new" change. Like that cartoon DR505 posted, I doubt the deer have gotten tougher in the last 150 years.

If I recall correctly, Finn Aarsgaard, who wrote for The American Rifleman, mentioned that as a young man in South Africa (or was it Rhodesia?) hunted elephants and other big game with the British .303 because that's all that was available.

It wasn't until much later that all those kills were impossible. It took the Americans and their belted magnums to show him the way.

I like this. What is plenty 'enough' to kill a deer? Those rednecks have to have their 'belted' magnums. Horse****.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Well...uh...actually, if we're to be real truthful about this, Bill, and we go back several years, the .22 has probably killed more deer than the .30-30. It's close though.

Seriously though, when some self-proclaimed "gun expert" starts bad-mouthing the .30-30, I just consider the source. Obviously, these kinds of folks get most of their "knowledge" from the latest gun rag and not from practical experience.

The .30-30 has probably ridden more miles in a saddle scabbard through pine, aspen, and rugged mountain country than any other caliber that I know of. It's the gun that most ranchers have tucked in a scabbard mounted to the side panel of their Jeep, or put under the front seat of their pickup.

As mentioned before, this "lowly" cartridge has killed deer, elk, bear, and a host of other game. It's a no-nonsense cartridge. It's a working man's gun. It might not have fancy engraving on the receiver or a Circassian walnut stock, but it seems to be the go-to rifle for a heckuva lot of folks who know the mountains and backwoods of this country.

I've killed most of my deer with a .30-30. They were mule deer bucks and this was in Utah. I've hunted black bear with a .30-30 and have never felt under-gunned.

So, whenever I hear some blowhard demeaning the .30-30, I just shake my head, walk away with a smile, and figure that he probably spends more time watching the Outdoor Channel than being out in the back country himself.

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Pack light and cinch tight.

All I know is: I sure as hell wouldn't want to be hit by a 30-30.

I don't care what you shoot, just do it safely. I also find I gravitate away from gun store folks who offer uninvited opinions.

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Where's my dad's America?

That sounds like a group of guys who's minds are made up, and no amount of discussion or debate will change them. I clam up around that type, I make it a point to not argue with idiots.

I worked behind the gun counter in a big sporting goods store in Seattle for a couple years, and I can't count the times customers would try to impress me with their "knowledge". I'd let them babble all they wanted, or until they realized I wasn't going to challenge anything they said. Then I'd move on to the next customer.

I don't hunt and really don't know squat about firearms but I really enjoyed reading all of the posts here.

Used to watch a western with Walter Brennan as a grandfather traveling with his grandson looking for the grandson's father.All three were fast with the draw.Brennan's favorite line when his draw speed was challenged was something like "No brag..Just fact!"

I just got done watching a video on YouTube where a 12yr old boy takes out a bull elk at 1376 yds with a Gunwerks 7mm Rem Mag.His first shot went under the elk without even startling it.The second shot took it down.

What ever happened to hunting where you had to be quiet and downwind? I'm sure that all of you want to bring some meat home but still enjoy hunting the same way your fathers or grandfathers did it.

Nowadays it seems it's all about possibly using a drone for tracking,taking a kill and being home in time to watch some football.

Don't know if my post makes any sense to any of you but I enjoyed reading yours.If Walter Brennan were alive he would "like" each post and add..."No brag...Just fact!"

I killed my first deer over 30 years ago with a single shot 30-30.

I killed my last deer last November with it's ballistic twin, the 303 Savage.

In my life, I've killed around 100 deer with dozens of different rifle/cartridge combinations, and with the exception of a bow and arrow, I've yet to find one that doesn't kill a deer DEAD as long as I do my part.

If the gun shop owner tells all his .30-30 owners, just how wonderful that caliber is, he won't be selling you on newer calibers. Maybe this dealer and others like him need to undermine your confidence in your existing caliber or cartridge to set you up to purchase something that can actually kill a deer as it is widely known that deer have further evolved and are now be immune to hits from a .30-30, .25 Rem, .250, 300 and .303 Savage, etc.

By all means, continue to enjoy your existing cartridge and no doubt you'll continue to fill your freezer with game meat.

I wonder what percentage of us gun owners like to stay one up with the newer technology when it comes to these brand new wizzbang calibers over still using the older technology that's worked for the last 50 to 100+ years ago till now.

One big problem I noticed when hunting in the boonies don't look for your newer wizzbang calibers to be on the shelf for sale. I notice the old 30-30, 303 Britt and 30-06 is found in the general hardware stores. If your lucky the local General hardware store might even sell guns too. I once had a general store who also had groceries sell guns upstairs on the second floor.
I was in heaven with the one stop country shopping. I wonder why this way of bundling groceries, hardware and guns died off? I miss the old way of life.

When I get to the age that I can't get within 30-30 range of a deer, I'll quite hunting. It is no longer "spot and stalk", but "spot and snipe". But,......they can't do it without their rangefinders and bullet compensating scopes with a spotter. I prefer open sights on my levers. I have some scoped, but mostly opened sighted. But, that's just me......

Not hunting related, but in line with what Big Bill said: Having grown up in the boonies, I will note that the local (defined as ~25 miles away) Wal-Mart had only 10mm Special (.40 S&W) and 7.62 x 39mm when all of the other cartridges were sold out during recent shortages.

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Where's my dad's America?

I have 6 30-30's all are 94's except an H&R handi rifle. This was the first centerfire rifle caliber I fired. It is an easy caliber to load for cast and jacketed. I also have 25-35, 7-30, 32 spl, 270, 348, 357,375 & 45-70 caliber lever action rifles. All are Winchesters but I have had a few Marlins over the and they are nice also. I have to say that I have killed more deer with my 4" 686, 3, than the other rifles. The farthest any of these deer went after being hit one time was 15' and one dropped on the spot, brain shot. You don't need cannon to kill deer in the Midwest. Anything that ruins meat and uses up it's renaming energy on the ground behind the deer seems like a waste to me. To each his own I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and like to get as close to my quarry as possible. I have watched guys at the range sight in their cannons and wince with pain after firing a few shots because the recoil was too much. That doesn't lend itself to very good offhand shooting when you brain tells you that when you pull the trigger it's going to hurt.

Lets face it if the manufacturers didn't keep trying to reinvent the wheel by bringing out new calibers they wouldn't be able to sell new guns and ammo and that's what their in business to do. My grandpa used to kill deer with a .22 because that was all he had during the depression and it worked.

This always comes up in our deer camp discussions. Us older guys tend to stay with our 30-30 or 30-06 choices, while the younger set goes with the big stuff. I've spent a lot of time helping them find their lost deer. I have yet to have a deer or hog complain about being shot with a wimp.

From the 1911 crowd preaching the perfection of .45ACP ...

From the plastic fantastic fanboys crowning about the virtues of .40 ...

From the weekend warriors bragging about their tacticooled .308s ...

Everyone's got an opinion ... among other things.

Until I run up against an African bull elephant, I'm happy with 7.62x39 and 7.5x55 Swiss as backup. The handy 12 gauge is backup to the backup.

As to handguns, my CCW is a J-frame .38 Special or 696/624 in .44 Special. I'm comfortable with both, and feel no peer pressure due to caliber arrogance to change.

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I'm with the banned ...

57,000 Marines& Army who came home in boxes would disagree with this sentiment.

30-30 is a very good round. Couple it with Hornady LeverRevolution ammo, and you have a spectacular brush to 200yd. rifle for everything from hogs to medium size bear. It has to be one of the more forgiving rounds to shoot, and though it's not as fast as say a 243, at 120yds a 30-30 hits and delivers drop power much better than a 243.
I will go so far as to say that if you are staying under 150yds, it is very much equal in hit power, and accuracy, to a 308. Beyond 150yds, the 308 just outperforms it. But inside that, I would be willing to take an elk with a 170gr. 30-30 at say 100-120 yds, and that is saying a lot about the 'little old rifle'.....

Naw, that's a wussy one. In the Nevada mountains the deer have 40 gigawatt shields AND ablative armour.

I can see a bunch of guys touting their favorite caliber (uh, cartridge) but when the LGS tells you that it's the old, "NOBODY is doing THAT anymore. What YOU NEED is one of THESE!"

Just another sales tactic.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

If I had to pick a fast handling hunting or defense gun the Marlin 30-30
Could be a great choice. I never saw the shelf bear of ammo for it.
It has plenty of and range.
I finally stepped up a notch to a 300 Savage for scope use.
I still have a Marlin and Winchester Classic octagon bbl.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Another one for another thread is the 45 Colt, which was all but dead and buried in 1968.
I guess it was harder to kill than the gun writers thought.

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Have a blessed day ,
Bull