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Old 01-07-2015, 11:26 AM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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Default Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?

I see that both Goex and Grafs sell a black powder under the "Reenactor" grade designation. This stuff is cheaper than the graded powders like 2f and 3f. It is mostly advertised for use with blank charges, but Goex makes mention of it being suitable for economy minded casual shooters.

It is my understanding that the current system of gunpowder grading did not exist until some time into the 19th century, leaving perhaps half a millenia of non differentiated powder. Some controversy still exists as to whether 2f or 3f is best for revolvers, Elmer Keith thought 2f proper. Others say 2f is the closest to the general use sporting and musket powders of the 9th century, but most makers continue to suggest 3f for revolvers.

Wouldn't the cheaper and perhaps cruder "reenactor" grade actually be closer to the powder actually used for the majority of the lifespan of black powder? Can I use it in modern percussion revolvers?
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Old 01-07-2015, 04:41 PM
Rusty Shacklford Rusty Shacklford is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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Hey, I used to shoot quite a bit of blackpowder as a re-enactor and with a percussion revolver. The 2f 3f stuff refers to the size of the grains. The 3 is smaller than the 2. From what I know the larger the caliber the larger the grain you might want. I don't think there is a difference in the powder otherwise but the larger grain might cause more soot build up. I have used the 2f and 3f in both revolver and musket. Your cannon I guess wouldn't mind any size.

So if you have a choice and it's the same price get the 3f(fff). If it's "re-enactor grade" I might say then it's a lower quality and perhaps more build up in the weapon. Perhaps they didn't get into the grading until there was more of a mass production system (US Civil War). You might check on the re-enactor forums for more info.
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Old 01-07-2015, 06:00 PM
Oldiron Oldiron is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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The re-enactors I have talked to, used a combo of powder and flour. Would go BOOM and create a believable amount of smoke. It may be that is a combo of powder and some type of filler. Many folks that shoot revolvers for accuracy use a small charge of FFF and finish filling the cylinder with corn meal before seating a ball to keep the seating depth the same for all loads.
We keep a few lbs of FF, a lot of FFF for .45 and below and a couple of lbs of FFFF for flintlock pans. I don't use anything but the real stuff.
Larry
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Old 01-07-2015, 06:20 PM
BLACKHAWKNJ BLACKHAWKNJ is offline
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Most reenactors I know-starting with me-use 3F grade. Burns cleaner, easier to ignite, makes a nice flash and good smoke. And we are not interested in velocity, etc.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:16 PM
Eltioloco Eltioloco is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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From what I have read, the older powders were more like our high grade black powder. The older powders burned cleaner and had more umph per grain then the re-enactor grade powder. Try the Swiss brand powder or the Olde Eynsford powder made by Goex if you want the quality of powders they had in the 19th century.
Ken
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:57 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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Since the Re-enactor grade stuff isn't really intended for use with real bullets, I expect it's not graded as to grain size-or not graded as closely.

Since it's cheaper, I suspect it's left overs. If one is going to use it for anything besides making loud noise & smoke, I'd be very, very cautious on loading volumes.
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Old 01-07-2015, 11:58 PM
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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Does re-enactor powder equal floor sweepings??

I re-enacted for about 15 years and never heard of it.

LTC
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Old 01-08-2015, 12:59 PM
GatorFarmer GatorFarmer is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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It seems only recently that Goex and Grafs started selling the "Reenactor" powders. Goex specifically states that theirs is fine for economy shooting. Grafs house powder is even less expensive at only $11.99 a pound for the "Reenactor" cans. Being made in Germany, it presumably still has to pass whatever powder tests exist in Germany.

I think that higher quality blackpowder came on the market in the mid19th century. Many, many years ago I had the impression that it was often locally made in small batches, not graded for size.

I added a can of the Grafs product to a recent order. I was paying the Hazmat fee anyway. All but the coarse Swiss powders were out of stock, but they sold for a significant amount more than the German product or Goex.

I assumed the Reenactor labeled cans contained mix grades, left over etc. This is why I wondered if that was not a reasonable approximation of gunpowder encountered prior to about 1850.

Around a quarter century ago, in my youth, I used to make my own blackpowder. All that I had to shoot it with was a crude 3/4 inch bore homemade smoothbore. Cruder powders seem to work better in large bores. It would go bang, well more of a smokey roaring boom, and launch a projectile. In later years I thought this might bave been quite a bit like the powder available circa the 1400s, but I am not sure when the first powder mills were made. My craft batches were not milled, but wet mixed with alcohol and then dried. I had a 15:3:2 mixture or sometimes the 6:1:1. I used whatever was to hand, pure KNO3 at times, tree stump remover other times. Charcoal was always ground BBQ pellets and the sulfur was from the drugstore, supposedly the wrong kind to use, but always worked.

A Civil War buff once told me that late Civil War CSA powder was sometimes craft batched much like that. Apparently privies and barns were dug up, chamber pots collected and various human and animal wastes cooked down to get the nitrates. I was never that dedicated to backyard reproduction of history to try it.

It seems that living history in the United States, when it comes to blackpowder, rarely delves into pre Flintock or pre 17th/18th century. But the first guns in North America seem to have been big bore early matchlocks. I wonder, was the powder made locally in small batches?
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Old 01-08-2015, 01:10 PM
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arjay arjay is online now
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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I'll bet it was.It would have been a real nuisance to transport decent quantities before railroads.I wouldn't have wanted that job Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:07 PM
Aticus Aticus is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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The reading I've done on black powder tells us that the quality of black powder into the 18th century was spotty at best. A gentleman named E. I. Dupont being unhappy with such powder determined to make his own and keep the quality at the highest level. He succeeded. The company he founded made black powder until a few years ago when it was sold to become GOEX. Those who I know and knew in the National Muzzleloading Association generally preferred 1fg for cannons or bores larger than an inch, 2fg for over 45 caliber and under an inch, 3fg for smaller than 45 and all revolvers and single shot pistols 45 and smaller. These granulations gave the best velocity with the lowest pressures and minimum fowling. 4fg was reserved for flintlock pans and was at times used in revolvers but not often.

I have not heard of re-enactor grade powder till this thread but I will check that out with some of my sources.

I hopes this helps a little. I was fortunate to have met some of the black powder writers and the long time well respected members of the NMLRA years ago and could pick their brains so to speak.

If you can find a copy Lyman put out a couple books (Black Powder Handbook and Muzzleloader's Handbook) that explained a lot of this info. I highly recommend them.
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Old 01-08-2015, 03:42 PM
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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Black powder granule size has considerable effect on burning rates. The finer granulations burn more quickly, generating peak pressures more rapidly.

All black powder starts out as a fine powdery mixture, usually produced in a ball mill which uses non-sparking balls (lead, copper, brass, etc) to break the three ingredients down and mix them together thoroughly. This initial product has been referred to as "meal" powder, and it is pretty detonative stuff (extremely fast combustion).

The meal powder is then wetted down into a slurry mix. This is most commonly done using water, but some were known to use the urine of female domestic animals or humans (for the ammonia content, some believed to produce more powerful powder). This material is then thoroughly dried in cake form. The next step is grinding or crushing the dried cakes, crumbling the product into smaller and smaller granule sizes. This work must be done using only non-sparking tools and in an area protected from any type of ignition source or sparking. The resulting powder is sorted using screens that allow certain particle sizes to pass through while holding larger particles from passing. Thus the powders are separated into relatively uniform batches for different purposes.

The finer granulations provide more rapid combustion and conversion to expanding gases than the larger granulations, with a variety of potential uses for blasting work, fireworks, firearms of different calibers and types, cannons, etc.

The old common belief that it was impossible to overload a gun with black powder is not entirely correct. In many (perhaps most) common applications excess powder may simply be blown out the muzzle. In some applications the use of finer, faster burning powders can push peak pressures so rapidly that the firearm (or cannon, etc) cannot withstand the force and will fail (i.e.: explode).

Black powder was certainly produced in many small operations, especially in frontier areas with limited means for importation of anything. There were many people with strong preferences for a particular maker's powder over others. During colonial years in North America the powder produced by the Dutch was favored over English powder, and certainly over anything produced on this continent.

E.I. DuPont was one of the first large transnational businesses, with production facilities in the US, France, and elsewhere producing high quality gun powder. Along with American tobacco, American gun powder went a long way toward making the United States a successful and prosperous nation.
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Old 01-08-2015, 04:33 PM
dave holl dave holl is offline
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorFarmer View Post
I see that both Goex and Grafs sell a black powder under the "Reenactor" grade designation. This stuff is cheaper than the graded powders like 2f and 3f. It is mostly advertised for use with blank charges, but Goex makes mention of it being suitable for economy minded casual shooters.

It is my understanding that the current system of gunpowder grading did not exist until some time into the 19th century, leaving perhaps half a millenia of non differentiated powder. Some controversy still exists as to whether 2f or 3f is best for revolvers, Elmer Keith thought 2f proper. Others say 2f is the closest to the general use sporting and musket powders of the 9th century, but most makers continue to suggest 3f for revolvers.

Wouldn't the cheaper and perhaps cruder "reenactor" grade actually be closer to the powder actually used for the majority of the lifespan of black powder? Can I use it in modern percussion revolvers?
I use CCI musket percussion caps in my Thompson Center .54 for deer. The old caps, labelled CCI300 are the good ones. The only CCI caps available now are CCI301, which are designated "for reenactors", and result in many misfires and nipple clogs.......completely untrustworthy for hunting situations. The CCI website says the propellant has been "reconfigured" in the 301 caps for reenactors.
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Old 01-08-2015, 06:13 PM
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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the horses mouth
I trotted on over to their site to see what they had to say about it.
I guess its intended both for blanks and kicking lead balls into orbit when you don't really care about refinement.
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Old 01-08-2015, 07:31 PM
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Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be? Is "Reenactor" grade powder close to what black powder used to be?  
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I spend three to four days a week shooting blackpowder only, mostly out a couple of rifles and target pistol. There are around 30 members of our local muzzleloading rifle club and nearly everybody uses either Goex 2F or 3F, the guys that shoot flintlocks use 4F Goex for priming. There are a few of us that have tried Swiss and the Goex equivilent Olde Eynesford. We shoot for score on targets at ranges from 25 to 100 and shoot competively once a month. There are a few guys that have taken part in the skirmishes back east and they are the only ones experienced in shooting without regard to hitting a target. The reanctor powder is only good for making a bunch of smoke, that is what it was intended for. The formulas for making gunpowder have been around for centurys and the only reason anybody would make something to reeanact a civil war battle would be in the concious effort to eliminate any dangers as much as possible, like making three eared musket caps instead of the better four eared model. It was found that four earred models caused "wounds" on the reeanactor fields when they fractured and were found sticking out of people, so along came the three eared model with held together better and was much less prone to fracturing and flying off to cause damage on the reeanactor front...The reeanactor three eared musket caps are also much weaker and will not provide a good healthy spark for some rifles, a few of us have experienced some trouble with CCI Reeanactor musket caps and have junked them and switched over to reliable RWS Musket caps.
In regards to using reeanactor powder thinking it might be closer to the good old stuff or "Holy Black" as it is referred to by many blackpowder folks, forget it...The only major difference between Goex and Swiss is getting used to the different granulation formula, Swiss is much finer than Goex...for example 3F Swiss looks more like 4F Goex, it is very fine. There are arguments regarding the use of willow carbon as opposed to swamp gum, but in the end both Goex and Swiss are producing a powder today that is ever bit as good as the "Holy Black" of yesteryear, consistency between batches is excellent. The highly persickity business of black powder cartridge guns relegates them to the use of Swiss almost entirely, their demands require a powder between 1F and 2F and thus is the famed 1.5F and as far as I've been able to tell they are the only black powder shooters that trouble with it. For most black powder shooters 2F will suit nearly all shotguns and smoothbore rifles, large caliber rifles .50 and above. Most pistols and smallbore rifles .45 and under will use 3F, 4F is used only to prime flintlocks. There are always variables and some guys use 2F in everything they own regardless of caliber, others do the same with 3F. With experience and practice you can make do with anything, a rifle that normally uses X amount of 2F will get by with less 3F with the same results, usually with a slightly sharper recoil.
I've found that with my .45 single shot target pistol that I used to use 20grains of 3F for best results, I can get by with 15grains of Old Eynsford 3F and achieve a better group, it is much quicker. I don't fool around with it in any of my .45 rifles because its a little on the spendy side and they perform quite well on regular 3F Goex.
When it comes to buying black powder, do yourself a favor and get together with a few friends and buy in bulk (25 lbs or more) you will end us saving yourself quite a bit of money, around here its about a $5 savings per lb.
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