I am just wondering peoples thoughts on the this subject. I have mixed emotions especially since its not because of Uncle Sugar or overly restrictive State laws but rather online competition. Here is the story. I live in Florida. We have pretty gun friendly laws and there certainly are no shortage of gun toting Floridians. In the last 2 months five (5) gun shops in an area I visit frequently have closed shop.

Action Gun and Archery (2 Locactions) in Melbourne
Ammo Attic in Melbourne
The Gun Lady in Merritt Island
The Shooters Den in Melbourne
Indian River Outdoors in Port St. John

The fact that these shops have gone out of business when gun sales continue to soar tells me that people are buying guns, just not from them. As far as competition, the only real new entry into the market has been Bass Pro in Palm Bay but they're prices are higher than these shops were and their selection is not that great. I can only surmise that most people are buying online. I have done this as well but not with any new gun, only used. The problem I see coming down the pike is that most remaining shops dont do transfers, or do so selectively. It would seem that those looking to save money may, in fact, have cut their own throat. The shops doing transfers have folded and now most left wont do them. Was it the cheap transfers that shuttered the shops? I cant say that for sure. Each of them had their share of issues, either inventory or prices typically. Maybe a couple of these shops got buried in stuff they ordered and paid too much for during the panic but didnt receive until after it subsided and the bottom fell out of the market on black guns. I try to support the LGS even if I dont buy a gun from them. I usually buy a box or two of their ammo, even when it is 15-25% more than I can pay online or pick up some cleaning supplies. I am wondering if I should have done more. I dont want all the LGS to go belly up but at the same time, some of the remaining ones have some policies and practices that are tough to deal with and support as a customer.

Anyone else see this happening in their area? Also how much additional (as a percentage) are you willing to pay a brick and mortar LGS for the same item you could get online, all in (taxes vs shipping, etc)?

Gun sales have flattened, but not enough to account for shops closing. Ironically, in gun unfriendly MA, there have been several new shops opening in the past 2-3 years. One that opened about five years ago recently moved to a new location at least three times as large.

Transfer prices vary widely around here, so we can take our pick.

You list four shops in Melbourne. I don't know how big that city is, but it would seem like an awful lot of competition in a small area.

The Bass Pro around here is at the top end price wise for guns. They are competitive, but not cheap, for ammunition.

The cheapest prices for ammo, especially range fodder, is Walmart. They don't have the greatest selection generally, but have the most common calibers. During the recent ammo panic, they didn't have much and the LGS around here generally had something even if not in great quantities.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

I don't buy guns online. I buy primarily from two LGS's that I have patronized for years. The proprietors are my friends, and have been so for years. If they can't get it for me at the price I'm willing to pay, I don't need it. I'll buy accessories and such online, but even with those, sometimes it's easier to walk in, grab a chair, and say, "Hey, I need a . . . . " Owner shoots a price, I say make it so, and in a couple days I've got my part. Sometimes I'll toss a holster or other part that I don't need their way, and they can sell it or keep it. We have conversations about the state of things in the news, and we ask genuinely interested about each other's family. The gun trade, to me, is a completely different animal than buying electronics or tools or clothes, given the quirky investment nature of firearms. They're a tool for many invaluable purposes, they're decorative, and they also constitute an investment, even if you don't lock them in a safe and never touch them. The purchase and sale of such an item is so much more than a sterile internet transaction, or at least I think it should be.

If you keep your gun dealer happy, he'll keep you happy.

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I'm in small town South Dakota and we are seeing the opposite. We now have 3 gun stores and 3 box stores including WalMart selling guns and all are thriving. When it comes to buying firearms, I find it so much easier to just pay the little extra locally and avoid the hassle of on line purchases. I find I don't buy to much on line unless it parts and pieces but since a new shop called Brotherhood Arms opened up about 6 months back, I get 99% of what I need from them. They are locally owned and the service is awesome.

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NRA Life member

Random thoughts...

LGS operators are such a mixed bag... from knowledgeable helpful folks to arrogant jerks. Pretty tough to pigeonhole them as a group.

Over the years I've drifted more towards Net purchases for guns, ammo and accessories. There are so many new guns and products these days that the LGS is largely clueless and has no inventory. Plenty of feedback and "reviews" on the Net so the value of LGS expertise (which is lacking anyway) continues to be of less value to average Joe. LGS usually can't compete with the Net on price, and in states with high sales tax rates the gap is just too large for buyers to ignore. Absent information, inventory and competitive pricing, most all LGS operators around here have an indoor range.

The president of our rifle club has an FFL. All he does with it is transfers. So that works out pretty well in that ya don't have to ask a LGS operator to do a transfer on a gun you didn't buy from him. He stays busy.

Of course some guys look to the LGS as a place to find friendship and someone who can't escape from their bad breath.

I will always patronize my local gun shop for everything unless I need something in a hurry and they are not open, and that doesn't happen to often!
In a way I take care of them and they take care of me!

Hard to argue with . . .

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

I make all my purchases at my LGS, like keeping him in business.
Also has the lowest prices in the state.

MA Res Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall.

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

As labworm will attest, in MA buying on line, especially for handguns, isn't an option. The law on what can be transferred in from out of state is convoluted and open to interpretation. Most dealers don't want the aggravation. The law is such that the penalty applies to the MA FFL, not the sending FFL, the seller, or the buyer.

If a MA FFL does a transfer for a gun "not on the list", I get to keep the gun and he gets a $5K fine.

Hence most dealers won't risk it. Some won't even transfer in a long gun and I know one that won't transfer in an unbuilt AR lower.

All of which is my long winded way of saying that I buy all of my guns from an LGS.

Based on some of the horror stories I've read about people getting guns that were not as advertised and then having to chase the seller to get a refund, I'm not sure I'm missing that much.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

I have purchased some hand guns from Carl locally that would have cost a great deal more online.

If I am going to slap down $600.00, I want to see it in my hand.

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

Pa is gun friendly and I have 5 or 6 gun shops within a 10 min drive of me. I know of one that closed. It was just before the panic. Their prices were stupid high on used guns. They priced themselves out of business. They seemed to always look at the highest price that model can bring without taking into consideration the condition.

Out of all the gun shops I mainly use 2 for my purchasing. Both have what I want at very good competitive prices.ive bought very nice S&W 36 revolvers for $350 and under. The $350 is in VG condition and the other had holster wear and was $199.

Paid less than $600 for this early 66 with box, tools, and a presentation box.


I've bought HKs for under $500 at one and 3rd Gen S&W 45s for under $400 at the other. Both stores are busy as can be.

Here's their 22lr
https://m.facebook.com/TannersSportC...pe=1&source=42

The other store you can look up online at Phoenix Distributiors gunbroker

In the absence of repressive gun laws, my guess is that there were more gun stores opened than the local market could support. In many cases, an employee working for an hourly wage, sees the volume of guns being sold and he knows what his hourly wage is. So, if he wants a bigger piece of the pie, he opens his own shop. I can't say this happened in Florida but people opening gun shops must have at least a hint of how to run a gun business.

I saw that happen on Long Island when an employee of Leslie Edelman's, a gun store the size of a supermarket, left and opened his business a few miles away called "Danny D's Sportarama." Both firms are now history.

I need a member here who has their FFL to chime in on the yearly cost to re-new their FFL.

Isn't the yearly cost pretty high? That, along with the other costs to remain as a brick and mortar store. A store would have to have some pretty serious sales of guns and supplies to remain open.

As far as the big brick and mortar stores, like Cabela's and Bass Pro and some of the bigger ones, they sell more stuff besides just guns and gun supplies to make up for their total income, in order to stay open.

Granted, they are not brick and mortar stores, but some of the FFL guys operating out of their house, have pretty much given up because the cost just wasn't worth the benefit. Plus too, the fed requirements about operating out of the home.


I still have of one of my guns I bought new from a FFL fellow that operated out of his house, way back when...He was able to order it, and sent to him.

WuzzFuzz

I like to purchase from my LGS but it's getting harder and harder. I recently bought a Sig P938 online for $515 delivered. My LGS wouldn't budge of the $700 price tag, tax excluded. I don't mind over paying a little, just not a lot. The other side of the coin is selling to a LGS store. I recently wanted to sell a gun and the best he could do was $170. Again I understand I'm not going to get full value but that was too low. Sold it privately for $250 but would have taken $200 from my dealer, again he wouldn't budge. I probably buy 3-4 guns a year from him, and buy my ammo too.

I live in Central Mass and there are 3 LGS within 15 minutes of my place. Bought all my firearms from all 3 of them. Paid $499 for my 45c and priced it at $569 at Bass Pro and BPs ammo doesn't even come close to Walmart.
IMO BPs only good for lookin'.

Oh, and they remember my name for about a week at the LGS after I buy something.

I take it you've never owned a retail store? Neither have I, but this statement is too narrow.

If a gun store were to attempt to stay in business by only selling guns, they wouldn't last long no matter where people bought guns. The markup on guns is really small when compared to accessories and ammo. A gun might cost a local dealer $500 from the manufacturer and he'll only be able to sell it for $600. A 20% markup will have you out of business in no time.

No, the money is in accessories. They can mark those up 100% or more. That's what keeps the lights on.

Further, guns are a one time purchase. Even if the markup were better, people usually only buy one. Sure there are gun nuts like me that have a bunch, but we're really rare in the big scheme. It's the ammo, targets, shirts and other stuff that keep people spending their money there.

No you don't. A few seconds on the ATF website will tell you that it's $90 to renew an FFL. Not cheap, but not ridiculous either. Nope, this alone is not putting guys out of business either.

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Freedom isn't free.

Our gun shops here do pretty well. They ought to...I spend a lot of money in them!

I am going to give you my 2 cents here, Locally I work in a larger store but not a huge gun store. family owned 30 years. What hurts the smaller stores is the Buyers groups that are established by the Larger or largest stores around including the Mammoth Dick's chains and Bass Pro's Etc. One of tthe larger stand alone stores has his buyers group, you cannot compete with his prices especially S&W so he gets first shot at all the new stuff at a less expensive price. More volume less markup. Also the big box stores order direct as the local mom and pops must buy from a distributor IE Ellet Brothers, JSC etc. The big stores can commit to million dollar ammo orders and the smaller ones get whats left. These are some reasons I believe the corner gun store is going down the drain. Once again just my 2 cents

Pete

We are on different coasts so it might be different where you are but it's not exactly like that here, especially not at the 2 LGS I frequent. Most money is from guns and ammo, not from accessories. In fact one of the stores barely has any accessories. The other has some but usually all the empty space is filled with boxes of rifles and ammo. This one was recently selling POF 308 rifles for $1399. They bought about 900 and sold most within 3 weeks. $1399 for a rifle that normally goes for $2400. Not long ago they had a sale on M&P 357sig handguns. Brand new $350. Before that there was a sale on FN FNX 45 factory RMR for $700 new. They buy everything from the distributor and blow it out the door.

The other LGS does a ton of police trades. They buy up all police firearms and confiscated firearms and sell them cheap. They have almost no accessories

Around here; Cabela's opened up, there's two new 'mom and pop' stores (one is pretty much focused on black rifles but has pistols too, the other is a 'full line' store) PLUS there's a new indoor range that - now get this - was selling 'Executive Memberships' with private lanes, storage areas etc. for...wait for it...$20,000+ INITIAL MEMBERSHIP FEE PLUS several thousand a year in 'maintenance fees'.

AND, all the 'old' LGS's are still around.

Nope, not seeing that around here.

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But then, what do I know?

Another MA resident who has dealt almost exclusively with the LGS. Although I have been involved in a few FTF xfers, and bought one or two guns on line with the assistance of my LGS, the vast majority of my purchases have been straight from my LGS. This has been mostly guns and ammo, but also a few scopes, one of which I bought new from him rather than on line, because he had just ordered a gun for me from the factory and passed it to me for NO profit. Long story, but that was the SECOND time he had done something like that.

I deal with my LGS for two reasons, neither directly related to the incidents above. First, I recognize that if I want there to be a local gun store, somebody has to do business with him so he can make enough money to stay in business. I call this the dive shop syndrome. If you want to be able to buy cheap clean air, you won't be able to if you and everyone else buy all your SCUBA gear on the net.

The second reason I buy from my LGS is that I like used guns. Sometimes I like fixed-sight guns. I'd much rather buy a gun from a place where I can count on the gun's working.

I am quite sure that over the years I have SAVED a lot of money by sticking with my LGS. There are also other benefits from supporting the local store, but they may vary from place to place.

I know of Five or Six LGS that have closed in the Kansas City Area in the past year. Most were not prepared for the panic rush of buying when it hit. They sold out of everything very quickly and then could not replace the merchandise that they sold during the the rush and many potential customers and regulars just quit going in only to be told "no we don't have any and don't know when we will get any". The rent and bills went on but they had nothing to sell. The LGS in the area that had deep inventory and deep pockets when the rush hit did just fine and are still doing well with less competition.

There are two LGS in my area. One has been there for about 30 years and has a fair amount of new and used,but his prices are high and he and his staff tend to be a bit unfriendly to most people. The other has been open for about 18 months and is run by a father and son,both nice and their selection is getting better as they go along.Their prices are about normal for the area. I have a Model 442 on layaway that was priced at $449. and when I was in last week they had a used 5906 for $399. The nearest Big Box Gun Shop is 50 miles away.

As Rastoff previously stated, accessories are where the money

is.

I visit a few LGS regularly, the two which are booming are

wall-to-wall accessories. Yes they have guns, lots of them,

but isn't it also a co-incidence that the stores that are

struggling are light on accessories?

As to the OP's mention of gun stores going out of business,

this is Florida, dude. Businesses come and go all the time.

Many businesses here are the culmination of a retired persons

pipe dream, i.e.-"when I retire, I think I'll try opening a

gun store in Florida...". When these businesses don't pan out

as well as planned, many retirees have already planned to cut their losses

before the store even opened, in the event of a negative cash flow scenario.

I'm not sure where you are in relation to Palm Coast, but my friend Louie just moved down there and set up shop.
He's a retired cop, Army vet, and all around great guy.
His business is Collazo Tactical Arms.
Louie will do right by you, there's no better 2nd A defender anywhere.

About Us!

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Sure you did

I consider my gun collecting hobby as a "no cost hobby". I buy guns at a really great price, shoot them and enjoy them, then I sell or trade them for something I want more. I nearly always make a little money on the sale and only a couple of times have I lost a few bucks. The ammo and targets cost money but that is a different hobby, my "shooting hobby". I recently purchased a Remington 700 BDL 30-06 with beautiful walnut from Walmart for $377(it was mismarked) and I'm sure I can make money if/when I sell it since they retail for about $740. Before that I bought a Smith M49 from an individual for $350 and sold it on Gunlist for $500. I have bought a few used guns from pawnshops but out of the last 50 or so guns I have bought, only 2 or 3 have come from local gun stores, the rest from gun forums.

I, too try to buy from my LGS whenever possible. When I say possible, I also mean financially possible.
Lately when I use them for a transfer, I cringe at what I know is coming. He'll ask if I checked his inventory first, I'll say yes, then he asks how much I'm paying. Usual response from him then is " Hell, they're givin' it away!" I remind him that nobody is "giving" me anything.
His prices have been as much as 50% higher on a couple. I can only do so much to help. His transfer fee is 5 min of writing or typing with no overhead involved. That works out to over $300 an hour. I thought I was doing him a favor by giving him that business.
I always pick up some ammo for it and cleaning supplies or even a holster, but I'm not rich. I have to shop for the best deal like most people.
I think it's just a matter of turnover and quantity sales, or lack of same. The same thing that caused a lot of family hardware stores to close up in the face of Lowes and Home Depot.
I don't know what, if any, solution there is. I guess diversify wherever possible and figure out what works locally.
In a small town there's only so many guns you can sell vs. nationwide.
Perhaps jump on the Internet bandwagon also.
To do it though, one of my locals needs to GET Internet, plus his only fax, and the other shop owner needs to figure out how to use a computer.

There's one sportsman shop, guns ammo fishing clothing baits, about eight miles from me that's closing. Yet the older and larger ones seem to be doing well.

I guess the strong will survive.

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Isaiah 41:10

I've purchased more than a dozen firearms over the past three years. Only one of them was from a LGS. The rest were on line purchases, with the exception of two I bought at a pawnshop. My primary interests are S&W 3rd Gen semi autos, & none of my local shops(at the time)ever had any. When I asked one counterman why, he said "No one wants those old tanks!". And yet, there I was in front of him asking if they had any in the back. Their prices weren't great on the stuff they did carry. They had a great range, though, & in the end that was all I went there for.

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Lounge Lizard Extraordinaire

Getting a transfer done does not necessarily require choosing between a LGS and a big box chain store. There are numerous places on the web where you can look up your local FFL holders, along with their specifics.

I seldom buy guns any more because I am retired on a fixed income, and I already have more guns than I will ever use up. Wanting to make a rare purchase, I looked up a local place, basing my choice on price and driving distance. It turned out to be one of those giant storage facilities where people store their boats, RVs, winter clothes, etc.

Its a 10 minute drive from my house. When I go in, the receptionist calls the manager down from his office upstairs, and we do the transfer immediately, and I'm on my way, with no BS.

The LGS I used to use (since 1969) is still in business, and doing fine. But they are at least a 30 minute drive away, plus another 20 minutes before a store clerk will even deign to talk to me. Sometimes they simply *won't* talk to me at all.

Here 35 miles North of Tampa it's not just the LGS's going belly up. Poor planning/decisions, NOT using the net to sell guns as well as off the shelf, a lack of experience, not enough $ to sustain them thru the first year? It seems to be worse for bars/restaurants & other businesses opened on a whim. I look EVERYWHERE before buying a gun. Full retail + tax is my last choice, whether it's a Mom & pop or big box store. I find a lot of what I need from word of mouth or fellow members of my gun club, somebody always seems to know a guy. My purchases are spread out to wherever I get the best deal or is most convenient. I don't feel I owe anybody a living, unless they have done right by me before. A LGS that robs me when buying and gouges when selling, I have no sympathy for. I don't like paying taxes/ hazmat fees/ or shipping, BUT will do what I have to.

I'm actually pretty happy with the fact that there are no big box gun stores near by. All the Cabelas and Bass Pro are a good 2 hour drive away. Been to Cabelas a few times and besides the sandwiches there really isn't anything for me. Guns are at least a $100 more than at my LGSs. The only thing I can say about Cabelas is that they have an amazing selection of ammo

Wasn't she on Howdy Doody.

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Don

Is that you Clarabell?

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Doesn't hasta call me Johnson

We were losing some LGS in the area about 3 years ago. Now new stores are springing up like weeds. They are all flavors, everything from mom and pop to big box stores. The big box stores are full line with accessories and sell mostly the trendy guns. The mom and pops do sell new guns but try to offer other choices than the cookie cutter models found in the big box stores. Where the mom and pops excel is in used guns. They not only rely on over the counter but list online also. All the mom and pops do transfers in this area. The only purchases I do online is reloading components.

When purchasing my first gun, I went to a large local gun shop with my wife and son in law that had a range. I won't name names but it is in Westland Mi. and owned by former police officers. None of us were very experienced and asked questions about a few guns and were treated so badly, we all looked at ourselves and said we would spend $100.00 more and get it from somewhere else before buying from them. Guess we were too dumb for them to help. For the record, they were a little cheaper than Cabella's, but still high priced. I went to a local FFL and ordered from him...all my questions were answered and have since bought 2 more guns through him. I understand not all LGS are like the one I went to, but they really left a bad taste in my mouth and made ordering online or through my local FFL directly my best bet.. Best of all, my FFL gave me a price $75.00 cheaper than the LGS.

The last several years--when I get new guns--always at gun shows. I buy mostly only from sellers im friends with--so always get better deals than the average bear gets.

As a matter well--ill post about it in a new gun show thread ill post a bit later including good news.

Yeah, he may not have a lot of accessories, but I'll bet you lunch that he makes a lot more on ammo sales than gun sales.

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Freedom isn't free.

so I made 9 buys between Jan 14 and January 15. 5 from LGS, 3 from GB, and 1 from a gun show...

It seesm to me that LGS's are like a lot of mom and pop operations, unless the next generation or two are looking to take it over and are being groomed for it, they are so to speak one generation businesses. The owners operate them until they depart this life, or are physically unable, or get tired of it, decide to retire-get a good offer for the property, e.g.

I think the whole thing comes down to business models. There are two local shops I visit and they have radically different models. The first one has ZERO accessories and essentially no ammo. Only enough to sell you a box or two if you buy a gun. His whole business model is about being the cheapest price in town and making it up with volume. He doesn't carry anything but the less expensive brands. Revolvers are Taurus and Ruger, with only a few S&W J-frames. Semi's are mostly the plastic guns.. Glock, Ruger, Springfield, KelTec, Kahr. Carries a decent selection of cheaper 1911's. The only moderate or high priced guns he has are used ones that come in on trade.

The other FFL is a full range and accessory place, but the training classes that they offer is what distinguishes them from everyone else. Someone signs up for a CCW class, or handgun shooting class, or womens self defense class... then they buy a range membership and a defensive handgun from their shop. They seem to be prospering quite well.

Yes, it most certainly does. Still, if he's only selling guns, he'll have to sell a bunch of guns to make money.

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Freedom isn't free.

I don't think so. I frequent the store Arik mentioned as well. When he buys, he buys in bulk. When I say bulk, I mean along the order of 500+ of an individual gun and he sells them at deep discounts compared to his competitors. The shop that Arik mentioned that went out of business wanted $489 for a 442 no lock. I got it from Tanners for $360 out the door. He doesn't haggle, the price is the price, and he moves them out the door at a rapid clip - he makes his money by selling in bulk.

In my case ...yes he does sell a bunch of guns. Exactly what Pineapple shooter said. The particular store we frequent sells A LOT of guns. The owner buys bulk and sells cheaper than most places, even online stores. He'll buy 500 - 1000 units of one specific gun and just blow them out the door. They'll sell at least a 100 guns on a Saturday and it's never not busy. There is no bargaining on anything but prices aren't steep either. They take everything and anything in trade. A few months ago I bought a used Sig P220 for $320. They do sell ammo but the bulk of sales is guns. Every week a tractor trailer full of guns shows up for delivery. In July the had a sale on 15-22. They received over 500 rifles and 600,000 rounds of 22lr. I don't think that lasted a month.

Both him and Phoenix Distributers made the top 25 sellers of 2014 on gunbroker

[QUOTE=WuzzFuzz;138360273]I need a member here who has their FFL to chime in on the yearly cost to re-new their FFL.

Isn't the yearly cost pretty high? That, along with the other costs to remain as a brick and mortar store. A store would have to have some pretty serious sales of guns and supplies to remain open.

IRRC...$300 the first time & $90.00 every three years to renew....
JIM......

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SWCA # L-1911

That's good to hear. I guess he's not on the decline then like this thread is talking about. I wish he was here.

We have on local gun store I wouldn't mind seeing go out of business, but that's a story for another day.

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Freedom isn't free.

In this part of Florida...

More stores than you can reasonably count, from pawn shops to sporting goods big boxes to hole-in-the-wall gun shops to established stores to crazy stupid priced ranges. Competition for used guns is brisk and pricey. While there is the occasional buy to be had, gotta be first, with cash. Lots of reselling on GB, etc. Only thing I'll buy local is what I want when I see it...or I'm off to the 'Net. Bought my last gun there, for a minimum -$200 less than the closest local price, and free shipping. Even the transfer fee was less than the sales tax. Not a tough decision.

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50 Years of DSOTM

I live in the same area as the OP. I am not concerned over the closing of local gun stores. Two of the mentioned stores appear to have ineffective business practices, which caught up with them in a general slowdown in sales. These stores did not flourish during the high sales period. Good stores, under competent management will continue operate by providing a good service and keying in on customers. The OP need not worry, he will be able to get good service without having to go to B & H for a ration of "customer contempt".

The first one you mentioned is the only place I have every purchased two guns at once. A no lock 442 for $350 out the door and a Seecamp 32 for $375 out the door.

A gun shop is a business.

My usual purchase will be a gun that has not been made for 50 years. As one of the only venues in my area, when I need a transfer I am happy to pay my LGS $50.00 plus the NJ NICS fee. If they didn't want to do it at that price they would charge me more.


If I was buying new guns online they might not like it


I do try to buy my supplies from the LGS rather than the big box store.

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