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Old 04-02-2015, 02:49 AM
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Default Handgun transfer question...

Folks, I need a definitive answer to what I thought was a simple question...but after talking with two dealers and the BATFE, and getting three different answers, I'm still not sure about this.

Here's the situation: I live in the Peoples' Republic of Maryland, and have a Colt Government Model I wish to sell. A friend who lives in Northern Virginia is interested in buying it. He is about 1 hour driving time from me. Now then....

I know that this transfer would have to be handled through a FFL in Virginia, but to get the Colt to the FFL, must I ship it? Or can I simply drive to the gun shop in that state and do the transfer there?

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Beemerguy
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Old 04-02-2015, 03:03 AM
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AS I understand your best bet is to take it to your local FFL and have them ship it to his local FFL.

Not saying you could not drive it to his FFL, just that it would be uncommon and could throw his FFL and others into a loop. JMHO
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Old 04-02-2015, 03:28 AM
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FFL's can (apparently) accept transfers directly from individuals, with proper identification. So if his FFL in VA. accepts from individuals it wouldn't seem like it would matter how you got it to him to do the transfer. Have you asked him (VA. FFL) about it?

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Old 04-02-2015, 05:43 AM
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From my experience: I have driven from my home in Indiana to Illinois and sold guns to a shop/FFL in Illinois. Only the FFL in Illinois was involved. I've traded off a gun and bought one (within the same transaction) at the same Illinois shop and the gun I purchased had to be shipped to a shop/FFL in my state of Indiana. I can understand that as the 4473 for my purchase must be filled out in my home state.
The only caveats I can see in BG53's example are: Make sure both FFL's involved know of your transportation preference, as it's their license and therefore their rules. AND Make sure you are following firearm vehicle transportation laws in both states involved.
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Old 04-02-2015, 07:44 AM
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When it comes to state lines shipping it would be the least confusing way
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:07 AM
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Judge rules on interstate handgun sales.

Judge O?Connor Invalidates Federal Regulatory Regime Relating To Buying/Selling Handguns Across State Lines Due To Second Amendment | Northern District of Texas Blog
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:17 AM
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Yeah, don't get too excited just yet about that non-precedential opinion by a district court judge.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:29 AM
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Quite often the advice appears, on this and other boards, about selling a gun. "Take it to a dealer and let HIM transfer it, doing a 4473 and a call-in. That way you are covered."

Now, if I can walk into Joe's Gun Shop, hand him my gun and tell him I want him to log it into his bound book, and then transfer it to Frank, and that's perfectly legal (and everyone seems to agree that it IS legal, even though not required by law and will add another fifty bucks to the purchase price), why in the world would it be illegal to drive over the line to Alabama, take MY GUN to Frank's Gun Shop, and do the same thing?

The law does not tell you how it HAS TO be delivered to the out-of-state FFL. It tell you how it CAN NOT be delivered to the out-of-state FFL.

I believe this confusion is caused by FFLs that are so afraid of rogue ATF agents that they are afraid to spit without written permission.

The FFL in question might very well not want to accept it if it was hand-delivered. But there is no law against it.
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Old 04-02-2015, 10:38 AM
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There are federal laws and there are state laws. There may also be municipal laws.

There are also business policies and practices.

There is no federal law that prohibits you from transferring your pistol to a FFL holder anywhere in the US, either by hand-delivery or shipping via common carrier. The dealer can then transfer the pistol to any person not prohibited from acquiring it, put it into inventory, or transfer it to another FFL holder. Since you are so close it would be much less expensive to deliver the pistol yourself rather than pay the costs of shipping via FedEx or UPS (which will probably more than pay for the trip by car and a nice lunch).

There may be state laws or municipal laws that restrict such a transaction, so you should check that to be sure.

About the only thing left would be the business policies and practices of the FFL dealer. Is he willing to accept delivery from you (with valid identification, etc), log the pistol into his records, and transfer it to your friend? If not you cannot force him to do so. If so you should expect to pay a fee for the dealer's services.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:45 AM
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In normal states, a non-resident can take the gun and the buyer to an FFL and have the FFL transfer it from the non-resident seller to the resident buyer.
BUT, in a Communist state like Maryland, I'd go the safer route of having a Maryland FFL ship it to the other state's FFL, and let the buyer pick it up there. I'd have no doubt there would be some sneaky little statute to interfere with doing it yourself, and the BATFEces people would love to use your mistake to hassle the out-of-state dealer; and maybe you, too. Acebow
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:54 AM
J. R. WEEMS J. R. WEEMS is offline
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Exclamation TRANSFERING

There is NO reason you cannot drive to VA and deliver any firearm that is legal to a FFL - Municipal laws CANNOT, at least in VA trump STATE or FEDERAL laws-- this would be and is illegal. JMHO of course. Again, be sure you follow transpiration rules in BOTH states since you do not have a permit to carry--
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Old 04-02-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoboGunLeather View Post
There are federal laws and there are state laws. There may also be municipal laws.

There are also business policies and practices.

There is no federal law that prohibits you from transferring your pistol to a FFL holder anywhere in the US, either by hand-delivery or shipping via common carrier. The dealer can then transfer the pistol to any person not prohibited from acquiring it, put it into inventory, or transfer it to another FFL holder. Since you are so close it would be much less expensive to deliver the pistol yourself rather than pay the costs of shipping via FedEx or UPS (which will probably more than pay for the trip by car and a nice lunch).

There may be state laws or municipal laws that restrict such a transaction, so you should check that to be sure.

About the only thing left would be the business policies and practices of the FFL dealer. Is he willing to accept delivery from you (with valid identification, etc), log the pistol into his records, and transfer it to your friend? If not you cannot force him to do so. If so you should expect to pay a fee for the dealer's services.
Ray, your usual well expressed answer. I would add to this that unless there is a Maryland law forbidding you from transferring your gun to a dealer in Virginia take it there personally. Some dealers do not except shipments from non-FFLs because of the problem of identity. Most FFLs will accept in person transfers with a government issued picture ID.

Take the gun to your friend's FFL and have a visit when you do.
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:19 AM
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Thanks for your answers, everyone. Just to clarify:

There is no law prohibiting me from driving to the dealer in Virginia with my legally-owned pistol. Maryland law does require it be unloaded, with the ammo (if any) packaged separately, and carried in the trunk of the car. I don't know if there are any municipal laws that apply, other than those in Washington, D.C....but while I will be driving around Washington on the infamous Capital Beltway, I will not actually be driving in the city.

As LoboGunLeather correctly surmised, I am interested in doing this because it would be much cheaper to drive to the dealer in Virginia than to ship it there. The buyer is a LEO, who deals with the FFL regularly, so I suspect there will be no problem with them accepting the pistol from me to transfer it to the seller.

Yes, I am leery of running afoul of the ATF, which is why I started this thread. Thanks again for your responses!
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemerguy53 View Post
Thanks for your answers, everyone. Just to clarify:

There is no law prohibiting me from driving to the dealer in Virginia with my legally-owned pistol. Maryland law does require it be unloaded, with the ammo (if any) packaged separately, and carried in the trunk of the car. I don't know if there are any municipal laws that apply, other than those in Washington, D.C....but while I will be driving around Washington on the infamous Capital Beltway, I will not actually be driving in the city.

As LoboGunLeather correctly surmised, I am interested in doing this because it would be much cheaper to drive to the dealer in Virginia than to ship it there. The buyer is a LEO, who deals with the FFL regularly, so I suspect there will be no problem with them accepting the pistol from me to transfer it to the seller.

Yes, I am leery of running afoul of the ATF, which is why I started this thread. Thanks again for your responses!
Will you be checking with the FFL holder in Virginia before making the trip? I too do not see anything wrong with what you are doing. Let us know how you made out & good luck.
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Old 04-03-2015, 01:18 AM
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Will you be checking with the FFL holder in Virginia before making the trip? I too do not see anything wrong with what you are doing. Let us know how you made out & good luck.
Oh yes, I'll clear it with the FFL before I head down there.

BTW, this is not a done deal yet. As I wrote in my initial post, the potential buyer is 'interested' in it. When he asked what I want for this pistol, I told him that would depend upon whether I had to ship it, or whether I could personally deliver it. He's a good young man -- a friend and co-worker of my son -- and I quoted him a very good price, but I don't know for sure whether he will buy it. We'll see...
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Old 04-03-2015, 02:56 AM
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It's an XSE, model #01980XSE, which I bought new about 7 years ago. Low round count -- perhaps 100 -- with the box, spare mag, lock, manual, etc. There is not a mark on it.

I am selling it because the current model 01980XSE has Novak sights, a beavertail grip safety, and a little thinner thumb safety, and it is far cheaper to buy the new Colt in that configuration than to have a 'smith retrofit the sights, grip safety, etc. I already have the new pistol, so this one is for sale. If this sale doesn't work out, I will post it here for sale.

Funny story here: I took my girlfriend to get her hair done at her hairdresser, a Turkish fellow named Hajib. While waiting for her, I went to the LGS on that side of town to browse, and ended up buying this Colt, which I have named -- what else? -- Hajib. So Hajib is for sale...
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Old 04-04-2015, 04:22 PM
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Here in Fl. I take my guns to Fed-x with a copy of the receiving FFL's license, and they send it cheap-ground. And in a location like yours, I would rather send it, than drive through that mess (I Know).
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Old 04-04-2015, 04:30 PM
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Go easy on me guys, I haven't sold a gun in years, and admittedly I haven't kept up with the ins and outs of it.

At the risk of being scorched to death from the flames that can come from asking a question like this on the net...I'l ask anyhow.

Is it illegal for the OP to just sell the firearm to his friend in the neighboring state?

I understand the OP's desire to not run afoul of the law, but is it nessessary for him to transfer the weapon to a FFL in either state, then to his friend?
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Old 04-04-2015, 06:58 PM
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Go easy on me guys, I haven't sold a gun in years, and admittedly I haven't kept up with the ins and outs of it.

At the risk of being scorched to death from the flames that can come from asking a question like this on the net...I'l ask anyhow.

Is it illegal for the OP to just sell the firearm to his friend in the neighboring state?

I understand the OP's desire to not run afoul of the law, but is it nessessary for him to transfer the weapon to a FFL in either state, then to his friend?
Since passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968 transfers of firearms across state lines between individuals, or purchasing a firearm outside your state of residence has been generally prohibited. There have been some changes made, primarily dealing with long guns, but handgun transactions between individuals across state lines still require FFL papering with very few exceptions.
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:02 PM
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Thank you Lobo and GA. I don't even feel warm, let alone scorched.

Appreciate this forum.
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Old 04-05-2015, 01:48 AM
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...Is it illegal for the OP to just sell the firearm to his friend in the neighboring state?
Absolutely. The transfer has to go through an FFL.
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Old 04-05-2015, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
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Nice. That would bring a good price around here.

I have a model 01070XSE (a later stainless version of your pistol):


I still say keep it. Hajib seems like an old friend and should be kept in the family.
Other than being blue with regular three-dot sights, Hajib is indeed identical to your gun. I've thought about keeping it, but I really need the money to offset the cost of the new pistol I bought.

I'm curious: What constitutes a "good price" for one of these in your area?
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:13 AM
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In the people's republic of NY there are many dealers that will not ship a gun for you. Meaning that if you box up a gun and take it to your LGS they will not ship it.

This FFL to FFL stuff doesn't happen unless it's a sale that happen at the shop. FFL to FFL is there to confuse people I think.

If I sell a gun online, I'll get an FFL from whoever bought it and ship it myself, never had a problem.
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