That all guns used at the range must be registered with the Club beginning Aug, 1 2015 . The reg was posted today on the pro shop window.. Many Match directors are now looking for other places to hold their matches. A large event is pulling out and the reactions from shooters in Las Cruces NM and Alamogordo NM have been (we wont be coming) to Ft. Bliss to shoot anymore.

The big thing is that the club with 2200 members plus being open to the public will see income drop and other MWR facilities and programs dependent on the income generated by the Gun Club will be faced with closing or program cuts. These actions hurt the soldiers and families on Post. Why a 2 Star General would take such action is beyond belief.

That is SOP for every base and post that I have been on. My firearms always had to be registered with the Provost Marshal.

He didn't say they had to be rgistered with the Provost Marshal, but that they had to be registered at the Gun Club.

I can see where that would/will be a problem. My biggest concern would be the security of the database of the registered weapons.

My biggest concern would be the security of the Post.
Having that many armed civilians going on the Base has to be a concern to the Commander.
His job is National Security. He is not your recreation coordinator.
He is responsible for everything that happens on his base.
The Commander has a lot on his plate. He needs you to support him, not criticize him.
He does not need of deserve To be second guessed by a bunch of whining crybaby civilians.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

I agree that the greatest concern is security of the data collected. It is a US military installation rod & gun club, so just about any bozo from Washington, DC could probably access the registration records!

I regularly shoot at at military installation. All firearms must be registered, with the Provost Marshall, if the firearms are brought into the gated areas of the post. The range, however, is not within the gated areas. Still on installation property. No registration required to bring firearms to the range which is outside the fences. I am concerned, however, that if one installation (Ft. Bliss) changes policy, then the installation where I shoot might change policies, also.

The point is that any firearm brought onto a military installation has had to be registered with that installation... has been like that for years.

With Ft. Bliss, I am assuming that the rod and gun club is outside the gated area, but it is still on Ft. Bliss... So, either register it at the rod and gun club, or make everyone register at the PMO. The civilians who are enjoying a very low cost membership to a shooting range are not going to like it either way.

Yes it is on military property. Said property extends all the way from El Paso Tx.to Socorro NM if not further.

The Club is outside the gates of the Post and was built by the City of El Paso Tx.

Pilgrim: I'm one of those complaining and I served my Country on Active Duty and as a result of that service I am in a wheelchair. What many do not seem to get is the Club is the money maker for MWR. Decreased income from the Club will impact Soldiers and their families at Ft. Bliss and there are no funds coming in to replace the funds lost. I doubt that 25% of the 2200 dues paying members will register their guns, if that many. The public is not likely to register their firearms. The Match Directors are cancelling August matches until they relocate to another range. The match I help run is probably going to dissolve as those from NM that attend have already made their positions known that they will not be coming to Ft.Bliss to shoot anymore. A major shooting event that brings nearly 400 shooters in is moving to another range. It's utter chaos.

The shooters can always find another range but its the MWR money that will not get replaced and that is my concern. Also I cannot believe that a 2 star general would do this to his soldiers.

My question is Why? What purpose does it serve and what is the reasoning behind this decision?

Those "whining crybaby civilians" have every right to spend their money elsewhere... and I hope they do.

He can make any stupid decision he wants. Nobody outside of his chain of command has ANY duty to endorse that decision with his or her money.

Then don't go there! The General has the responsibility to protect his troops and facility. He's got a huge wide open facility near the wide open border.
Profit making is not in his job description.

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NRA LIFE MEMBER

How does registering firearms at the rod and gun club make it safe? One reason for registering with the PMO is so that the MPs can know if they are dealing with a potentially armed person if they get a call out in housing. If the MPs get a call out to the gun club, they already know that folks are armed there.

While profit making is not in his job description, morale and welfare of his soldiers are... and if the gun club is basically providing the lions share of funding to MWR at Ft. Bliss as LadyT suggests, it is the post commanders job to determine if the new policy has a greater benefit than the funds being lost.

Yes the city built it, but in exchange for Ft. Bliss property ( where the old Rod & Gun Club was) so El Paso could build a highway loop around the city. Don't make it sound like El Paso did it out of the goodness of their heart.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

How does registering firearms owned by civilians and used at the range protect troops and the facility?

I'm not being argumentative; I just don't understand the thought process that registration leads to the improved protection.

Maybe I'm missing the obvious. If so, help me out here, please.

Yes, the Ft. Bliss Rod and Gun Club is "On-Base" but it is not in any way on a secured portion of the huge amount of land that is Fort Bliss. In fact it is at the dead end of a single road into it and is accessed from US 54 . There are no side roads. Anybody wanting to "invade" the base could and would have to go cross country. Whether or not their guns were registered at the club would be a moot point.
I've shot at that facility and it seems a shame to waste it for any of the reasons offered so far.

IMHO It's just one more step in attempting to be "Politically Correct"

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

And registering guns does that how?

Would the City of Rocky River, Ohio registering guns make ME "safer"? HOW?

Perhaps the good General is proactively looking to score some "upstairs" political points?

The only purpose of registration is to facilitate confiscation, if and when it happens.

Have they considered making the range a gun free zone?

Whenever anyone dishonestly denies this, I just ask them:
"How was Chicago's handgun BAN enforced???"

TO THIS DAY, none of them has had the guts to answer.

Why not make the entire post a gun free zone?

For at least the past couple of hundred years, there hasn't been an infantry combat without firearms.

If we banned guns from Army posts, there could be no infantry combats. No infantry combat, no war. If all of the firearms on post were melted down into a statue of Piers Morgan, we could end all war...

I used to shoot now and then at the Fort Bliss range in the middle 1980s. The procedure was simple. Put gun in trunk of car. Drive to range. Take gun out of car. Shoot. Put gun back in trunk. Drive home.

Mindless bureaucratic nonsense disgusts me. The range is out in the boonies; no one is going to launch a terrorist attack on Fort Bliss from there. And there is no reason for the government to know what I bring there for purely recreational shooting. Adding paperwork hassle and a potential compromise of confidential personal data is stupid. The timing is fishy; I betcha the order came down from the top "by executive order."

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I am afraid that many of the Generals today are
very political correct. A fish rots from the head.

A two star general dreams of being a three star general. Getting that third star is often a rather political process. Though you are assuming that it was the general's idea. It could just as easily be something that someone else came up with and that simply goes under the signature of a higher officer. Perhaps thought of by a colonel that wants his first star. Or perhaps it even came down from higher up. Maybe it even came down as something to do with whatever liability insurance provider covers things.

If I understand it correctly, the requirement is not to register all your weapons, just any that you wish to use on that range.

I would suggest contacting your member of Congress with specific concerns.

Or so it is claimed. Of course if that was true, then registering all guns everywhere would make us all safer. That way the police would know if someone at the residence being responded to was armed. Because surely no one would be at a different residence. Or not have registered their weapon...

It is also an unsettled area of law what authority a post commander actually has in family housing that has been contracted out to civilians to administer.

Someone explain this to me. And just to note....I'm not picking on anyone...just trying to understand.

How does this MWR help soldiers and how exectly are they hurt by it. Isn't a military base a 24/7 thing. Those soldiers who are there, work there?!?! Right!?! Is their pay being cut? How exectly are they hurt?

1. It's not JUST for service members, but ANYBODY who uses the range, even just to shoot a match.
2. Registration is NEVER a good thing, being a precursor to bans and confiscations. Registration should NEVER be allowed to proceed without resistance.

Someone with personal experience of registration would be suspicious. It's NEVER embarked upon with innocent intentions.

...or be in possession of a firearm as a prohibited person...

Arik,

ladyT may have different information but the Morale, Welfare and Recreation fund provides funds which benefit the military personnel and their dependents who are stationed at a particular facility. I would believe that their goal is to just "Break Even" (Revenues equal Expenses or Expenditures).

ArmyMWR.com - Home

When I was on active duty MWR provided athletic equipment, subsidized (discounted) tickets to various activities (including sporting events), some subsidies for transportation (bus operating expenses), deep sea fishing trips for those of us on the East coast, camping equipment, sail and motor boats, etc.

Losing these revenues could certainly force a reduction in the activities which MWR supported in that area.

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That's what we do!

I'm with LadyT on this one, I can't possibly see what good registering your guns on a range outside of the post itself can do. It surely won't make the range any more or less safe. Sounds like enough folks are not going back there, that would indeed make it a gun free zone. Something smells here. Maybe I missed something in the translation.

One of the many reasons why I served my time in the US Army and got out as soon as I could.

My well educated guess is that it's part of a campaign to harass LAWFUL gun owners and shooters whenever and wherever possible, and to likewise collect data on them that would facilitate future gun control schemes, lawful or otherwise.

It smells because it's rotten. There are NO innocent motivations for such things, ESPECIALLY not these days.

Going to matches, shooting skeet, all the recreational activities that used to be available to soldiers, retirees and their family members are going away, by design, it appears. By making the requirements to participate more and more onerous, DoD will soon be able to shut all the off-duty ranges down Army wide...for lack of use.

"Access to Fort Knox
All privately owned firearms are required to be registered with the installation Directorate of Emergency Services (DES) before being brought on the installation. Hours of registration at DES is Monday thru Friday 0800-1600, closed federal Holidays.
All firearms must be declared upon entry onto Fort Knox and Weapons Registration Permit verified. Firearms must be unloaded and properly stored.
Carrying concealed personal firearms on Fort Knox is strictly prohibited. State concealed weapons permits are not recognized or honored on the installation.

Procedures to register firearms
1. Obtain FK Form 2759-E; available from Fort Knox webpage at http://www.knox.army.mil/Garrison/dh...pdf/FK2759.pdf
2. Submit copy of the form and a copy of the applicant’s driver’s license to the DES Weapons Registration Office, BLDG 298 Gold Vault Rd, Mon-Fri (8am-4pm).
3. Upon approval the form will be returned to the applicant and will be valid for three years. Individuals must have the registration document whenever the firearm is transported on the installation.
4. Firearms can be de-registered by submitting, in person, identification and the original registration permit to DES Weapons Registration Office, BLDG 298 Gold Vault Rd, Mon-Fri (8am-4pm).
5. For more information contact the Physical Security Section of DES at (502) 624-6118 or 6818."

Access to Scott Mountain and the 1000 yard range is no longer possible. The Kentucky state long ranges matches were last held there in 2013. Teddy Roosevelt would be appalled to see what has become of The National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice. Created in 1903, to encourage civilian marksmanship training, the Director of Civilian Marksmanship was in past times, a U.S. Army or U.S. Marine Corps officer.

The CMP has steadily been marginalized, undermined, under funded and under attack since Teddy Kennedy got his wish in 1996.

Stars don't make them smart, look no further then Wesley Clark. Political posturing plain and simple.

Since this is a Rod & Gun Club, are fishing rods required to be registered?

Sounds like they are just trying to get a jump on the next step where all guns are locked up at the gun club and you can only shoot them there. It will eventually happen, might take 20 or 30 years. Probably have a form to file with your tax return listing all your guns in the future. That way they can tax you on each gun.

This is correct and the largest provider of those funds is the Post Exchange system (BX for you USAF guys and NEX for the Navy and USMC).
I would guess that the funds from the Rod & Gun Club are less than they are subsidized by MWR.

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CSM, U S Army(Ret) 1963-1990

No more calls please, we have a winner!!!

This new firearms registration requirement comes into effect on Aug 1, on Aug 2, my SASS group ( cowboy action shooting) meets for our monthly match. Usually 20 to 30 shooters, locals and out of towners, retired military as well as civilians. A minimum of four guns per contestant is required, some will shoot multiple categories requiring additional firearms. In addition to the SASS group, there will be many dozens of other shooters on the various ranges including pistol, rifle, trap and skeet. As of yesterday, there were no real plans as to how this program will be administered. I can't wait to see the cluster maneuver that transpires on Sunday morning. One redeeming factor is that there is a bar at the club house. I will probably register my SASS guns because I want to continue with this group. As far as my weekly shooting, I'm looking for other opportunities. Will probably join the Las Cruces gun club. Sad state of affairs in the name of security or political correctness. As is often the case, this order was not properly thought thru. Knee jerk at its finest.

Why is he doing it ?" Career enhancement-you get ahead in today's military
by following the Party Line. Anti-gun administration, anti-gun military.

The anti-gun cult is spending a lot of time these days whining about "the gun culture", which is code for "Waaaah, my mom says you have to be my friend!"

This is no doubt their little passive-aggressive attempt to make shooting that much more difficult, without outright banning the activities.

The thing that I find so absolutely strange is that each member of the club is already registered with an assigned number and personal data on file. The only people who are not on a permanent registry are the guest shooters, military or civilian, including law enforcement. They have their ID's retained by the club only as long as they are on club property. FED LEO's use the range facility without signing in. Are their firearms going to be registered, how about the base rentacops that use the facility with regularity. How about the Concealed Carry classes that use the range.

As it previously stood, the Rod and Gun Club encouraged all the civilian and LEO use to bring in revenue.

The club is on an isolated, dead-end road, outside the base proper. Entrance to base housing, exchange facilities, barracks, admin offices or any other portion of the base is thru manned gates. Where is this great security risk?

Security risk? That's demonstrably a strawman argument.

I would welcome factual input on the number of instances where a lawful participant at a military range went rogue and decided to open fire on others. While I have not researched this, I'm comfortable that the annual incidence is well less than 1.

Register my weapons at the club? Thank you, no. The federal government has amply demonstrated its inability to safeguard PII, let alone another database. I enjoy skeet at the base range, but if I have to provide S/N, I'll go elsewhere. As for Ft. Bliss, I can't wait for the blowback. My sympathy lies with the Ft. Bliss community loss of MWR income.

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50 Years of DSOTM

I'm not the general, but my guess is that it accomplishes nothing. So what? A lot of things the military does accomplish nothing. The real question is whether it hurts anything. When I lived in Tampa near MacDill, they had a range that civilians and retired could go to sometimes, and they required that every weapon be registered. No skin off of my nose - most of what I have was bought on a 4473 anyway. The only concern might be if you think the books will be used to target burglary, which seems to me pretty unlikely, but not impossible. I wouldn't sweat it, but I have no argument with different folks' different choices.

Quite possibly the most likely answer.

As a retired E7, Army, with 22 years in service, I totally agree with lady T. I am not a whiny cry baby. However, I do agree that he is responsible for the post. But why the R&G CLUB?

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Slim, U.S. Army, Ret.

I had to get a background check to join the club I shoot at. Of course I can bring guests but I have to sign them in with me so if something goes south they know who to contact and they have names of every person in the party. They also have cameras on all the ranges so it's monitored 24/7. My club isn't on military property or even public property.

If you have ever been in the military you know that they are anal about securing their weapons. I don't really see this as anything out of the ordinary on a military reservation. If a weapon is on the reservation there is no reason to believe the military isn't going to assign a name and number to it even if it isn't in the gov't inventory.

If you drive your personal vehicle on base you will need to get a temp pass or register it to keep it there.

I know, it isn't on base but it's still a military reservation. Base security is going to change in the wake of the latest terrorist attack. This is probably a DOD directive for all military reservations.

It's been my experience that the military doesn't care diddly squat about what civilians think.

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That's just somebody talkin.

Lt. Col. Bolgiano's excellent presentation on use of force (I've posted it before, and it is easily found on youtube) discussed among other things the culture of the U.S. Military and its fear of firearms and armed soldiers. I suspect that this is just another example of it, and likely driven by incentives related to promotion or boot licking his superior officers.

To those of us from the LE side, the stuff we hear about or from the military and the things we have seen (I've done joint ops LE stuff with them) are utterly foreign. Arms room? Clearing barrels? Empty firearms, no mags in well? Huh? (What we really say would upset the Gorilla.) I've had (AF) officers looking at me like a chicken watching card tricks over uniform standards (subdued jumpsuit only, no visible white T shirt as they are unsafe), wearing hats (unsafe) and carrying a 1911.

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NHI, 10-8.

Not on Fort Bliss, and I suspect not on any other military installations. Post tags are a thing of the past, although I keep mine on my vehicle. At the gate I show them my ID card; civilians have to show drivers' licences and proof of insurance. Then you're free to go. I mostly go to the commissary and Class 6.

Pre-9/11 both Lackland AFB and the Army at Camp Bullis hosted numerous competitive events open to civilians. After 9/11 all that stopped, no reason given. They tried to set up some procedures requiring background checks for civilian shooters, etc., but no one would go along with what was proposed. So everything stopped. I think few USAF bases even have trap and skeet ranges anymore, which were nearly universal at one time, and open to about anyone.