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  #1  
Old 10-09-2015, 10:47 PM
policerevolvercollector policerevolvercollector is offline
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Default Is gunsmithing a dying art?

I needed the services of a 'smith recently & was surprised to find very few still around. Oh, you can find someone to replace a part on your Glock etc. But, a good revolver guy seems to be scarce. I guess it's something akin to a "real" stand alone barber shop. Now, we have to go to a place in a shopping center that mass produces haircuts.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:09 PM
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Yes, it is a lost art around here, the last smith passed away several years ago.
Same with real watch repair people.
Do still have a couple of real barber shops tho.

Last edited by pawngal; 10-09-2015 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:13 PM
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Yes it is. There are still a limited number around here. Like mentioned above - some people replace parts on Glocks and people call them gun smiths.
There are a couple of barber shops still around. But, just try to find a shoe repair guy.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:25 PM
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Yes, they are diminishing just like any true art form.

A long time ago, all guns required the services of a skilled smith. Many parts had to be hand fitted or the gun wouldn't work. Even the loose fitting and rattly guns like the original 1911, needed some hand fitting.

Time marches on and manufacturing processes improve. Now there are many guns made that need little to no hand fitting at all. This speeds manufacturing and increases reliability. Unfortunately, the cost of that is a loss of care in the assembly process.

What's worse is the gun owners. Because we have become used to things that need little maintenance, we aren't used to paying for quality work. I hear guys complain all the time about the cost of gun smith services or anything to do with guns. They think a rate of $65/hr is outlandish. Because of this, a gun smith cannot make a living as a smith anymore. Thus only the retired and hobbyist are smiths any more.

Many that call themselves gun smiths are really just glorified armorers. I can do a better job than they can. One smith I know of charges $35/gun for a cleaning and takes more than a month to accomplish it. That's horrible service in my book.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:39 PM
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Maybe not "dying", but definitely close to old age. Almost 40 years ago I graduated from Oregon Institute of Technology with a 2-year degree in Gunsmthing.

At that time, making a living as a 'smith was tough unless you went to work for someone else or had deep pockets to see you through a few years of lean times while you got a clientele built up. The AR and AK designs were still new, but it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how easy it was to work on one of these new designs.

In order to graduate, we had to build our own rifle from either a military or commercial action; cut, contour, thread, chamber & headspace the barrel; finish the metalwork; and inlet either a semi-finished stock or fully carve & inlet a blank; mount a scope or sights; etc., etc., etc.. In those days, a nice Remington or Winchester could be bought over the counter for much less than a gunsmith would changer for building a custom & military surplus rifles were beginning to increase in collector value. The days of customizing cheap bring-backs or surplus were coming to a close.

Today, anybody with basic machining skills can build a "black" rifle from parts & most shops will follow the automotive industry's practice of just replacing parts until it it s fixed for most production arms. The cost of labor has done more to drive this trend, I believe, than anything else.

In my musings, I have asked myself the same question - and answered in this manner: Stoner's design of locking the bolt head into the barrel completely changed the ballgame in that now, chambering and headspacing were no longer a craftsman's task. Modern production techniques improved the tolerance envelope to the point where parts are truly interchangeable. Anybody who has worked on an M1 Garand, bolt action Mauser, Lee-Enfield, etc., and an AR variant will agree that with the change in design and production methodology came a new era in craftsmanship. Now, a "gunsmith" takes a plane jane M4 carbine, hangs a bunch of accessories on the rails & calls it a "Custom Rifle".

As far as pistols & revolvers go, the polymer frame pretty much did away with any opportunity for modification by non-factory personnel. Good revolvers are either in the hands of collectors who know how to work on them, or tucked away in somebody's safe collecting dust because the owners don't want to break them. I would guess that revolver work is the closest today to what gunsmithing was 50 or 75 years ago as function and design haven't changed over the years. Many of us do our own work, having learned either by trial & error or by watching videos on youtube.

Liability has become such a large issue that many smiths don't want the trouble or can't afford the added insurance. After earning the gunsmithing degree, I returned to OIT & earned a 4-year Engineering degree which basically fed, sheltered & clothed my family for the next 35 years. Along the way, another Engineering and an MBA degree saw me to the close of my working years. For the last 15, I was intimately familiar with the F-22 Raptor airframe design and production. Now I have time to learn the infinite nuances of real gunsmithing. LOL

A couple of the guys I went to school with stuck with it & are still in the gun business that I know of - One of them is recognized as the GURU of .22 ammo in the industry & was one of the designers of the SPEER Gold Dot ammo family. Everybody else went to work in other industries where they could count on a steady paycheck. Ok, I have vented enough......
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:16 AM
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The cost of insurance is one thing that drove me out of the business... as well as the specter of getting sued. Actually I had to have a real job to pay the bills. Luckily worked in a fire dept with it's attendant work schedule. I did trigger work on S&W revolvers and realized that people sometimes wanted the unobtainable/unsafe so quit that. Much of my gun work income was derived from firearm cleanings and repair of guns that were "improved" by their owners. Also most of the work was on shotguns mainly because that was what the majority of the shooters used in my area. Oh a cleaning job was usually done within 2 days 3 at the most and cost 30 bucks for most. Some were a bit more due to complexity. I must admit at certain times I did acquire a backlog of repair work. Money earned really didn't make gunsmithing a lucrative endeavor. For some reason I just liked it. Without the income from my other work and gun and reloading sales I would not have stayed in the business for almost 40 yrs. My real enjoyment came from building rifles(and shooting them) though..in an area where I was one of very few using rifles. I did not care for checkering stocks. Lol

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Old 10-10-2015, 07:59 AM
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In Brazil, at least in Rio de Janeiro where I live I guess you can say so .As a matter of fact I´ve only knew one , a friend of my father, but he´s gone a long time ago.
Here the gun control crowd have absolute control. It´s hard to find a gun shop let alone a gunsmith.São Paulo is better, though.Think of Rio as something like California, the reign of the mindless lefties.

Regards, Ray
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:09 AM
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They are tough to find here too. The guy that repaired a double shotgun for me several years back retired soon after. He worked out of his home with lower overhead and prices were good as well as his work.
Another good one a few miles from here had a gun store as well to help support his business. He did excellent work and built race guns back when they were popular for PPC. He has also retired although I understand his son has taken over and is good as well.
There also is a large gun shop here that does work as well. They butchered a gun I took there many years ago but have new owners now so can't judge them for that anymore.
I think a couple other shops still do some work but believe what they do is fairly limited. I've been fortunate I've not had need of gun smithing services often.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:23 AM
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The guy who used to do all the work on my handguns died last Christmas.

There however doesn't seem to be (or ever will be) a shortage of BAD "gunsmiths".
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:40 AM
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My smith is a personal friend. He retired from a Forest Service career and studied smithing at our community college, which has a program of pretty good repute. Good enough that only about half that enroll actually finish the certification. He does it for the love of doing it. He builds gorgeous, silky shooting highly reliable 1911s for a few select friends and charges next to nothing for them. He's gone thru all my revolvers and tweaked them for me, trouble-shot a couple successfully. I only know of two other full time gunsmiths in the area and neither professes any expertise with wheel guns.
I had to learn to do the valve adjustment on my 79 diesel Mercedes; a car built to last forever. No place to hook up a code reader so the teenagers who call themselves "mechanics" just shake their heads. Disposable cars. Disposable guns. Pretty sad.

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Old 10-10-2015, 12:21 PM
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A good smith is hard to find if it is anything beyond replacing a part. Locally we have one guy that is pretty darn good. He can build a lot of parts and fit them. He can repair a broken stock and you'll be hard pressed to find the repair. He does things quickly and returns finished work as promised and not in what many think of as "gunsmith time". But he is even a bit older than this gray haired old guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he said he was going to retire soon.

If you really want a gunsmith that is tough to find; try looking for a good gunsmith you would trust a side by side shotgun. I can count on the fingers of one hand all the gunsmith in the county I would trust with a double gun and I would have fingers left over. Thankfully one of them is a youngish German gentleman that I hope will be around for years.
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Old 10-10-2015, 12:29 PM
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Disposable cars. Disposable guns. Pretty sad.
Disposable mechanics too. I used to do some work on O/Us and doubles also. In fact when I go back east I have 4 of them to work on for a couple friends. One is a kinda high grade gun that I am going to service..the rest are pretty much easy fixes I think. When I moved west one of my friends bought a lot of my tools parts etc. He works on refurbishing older 22s and single shot type shotguns. He actually does pretty good work. He is patient and one of those who thinks before he tinkers. Gonna take him an old Craftsman metal lathe from my shop back there. He picks up my powders and primers and stores 'em for me so I have them to bring back west. I taught him rust bluing and he does well at it.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:31 PM
WR Moore WR Moore is offline
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While CNC machining is good, the idea that you can drop any AR pattern bolt into any barrel and get acceptable headspace is dangerous. The FMs for armorers requires the use of headspace gauges to verify proper bolt fit.

What you have there is called "selective assembly". The guys building the uppers try a bolt off the production line with headspace gauges. If it fits properly fine. If not, it goes into a too loose/too tight bin for trial in another barrel.

Have people gotten away with it? Sure. People drive too fast also and we see the results on the nightly news.

It is hard to find a good 'smith. There have always been a bunch of folks around who were nothing but parts changers. There have also always been folks around known as gun butchers.
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Old 10-10-2015, 06:35 PM
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Yes, in the same way nearly all of old school mechanical arts are dying off. Its been years since you actually had a mechanic work on your car, usually they are parts replacers. The same is true of many of those "professions", even driving used to be an art, shifting non-synchromesh transmissions required skill and let alone effort, not to mention the lack of power steering and power brakes.
I have a good friend who is in his 90's, he was "the" gunsmith we all trusted, he could fix anything. I have another friend that builds museum quality muzzleloaders, his work is simply amazing. As far as true gunsmiths go they are few and far between. We have a couple of decent AR mechanics in the area that do excellent work but thats not exactly gunsmithing. There are a couple of guys that are very good certified Glock mechanics but that ain't exactly gunsmithing either. A true gunsmith can make a gun from practically nothing but pieces of metal and wood. Gunsmiths can fix stuff that breaks, not just replace it and in the process make it look as if nothing ever broke. It doesn't take a gunsmith to install a scope, it does take a bit of skill to install some scope mounts. Its an art form if performed properly, I hate to see stuff that looks like somebody with backward mounted hands worked on it, some people should never be allowed to hold hand tools on penalty of a severe beating.
That friend of mine that builds muzzleloaders once entered one of his pistols before the Guild for examination, he had built it from scratch, lock and everything. In the end he was told "I'm sorry but I just can't find anything wrong."
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:35 PM
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Many that call themselves gun smiths are really just glorified armorers.
This!
............
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:36 PM
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I agree. At my age all the old gunsmiths I knew & dealt with are gone. Kurt Hasse, Bruce Stevens, Frank Leaman, Larry Boal, etc. Just one remains in Oregon. I talked to him yesterday. He works from home & is retired so has time to rebuild old rifles. I did some gunsmithing years ago but age & eyesight stopped that.A real tough way to make a living.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:00 PM
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I wish @fastbolt was my neighbor.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:09 PM
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I have one who is retired from S&W who specializes in revolvers and still does work for S&W . I tell him we are both dinosaurs.
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Old 10-10-2015, 08:50 PM
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The current generation likes disposable/ replaceable everything.A lot of things are fading around us.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:15 PM
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I started working on S&W revolvers around 1970, and I'm still at it. I found out a long time ago, you can't make any real money at it. I do it more as a hobby, and for the satisfaction of pleasing the customer. When S&W went from 3 basic sizes (J,K,L) frame, parts supply became a nightmare. It was always easy to stock the basic parts, and the factory shipped them out fast. I never had trouble with parts orders in the 1970's and 1980's. Too many different models today, and you have to have a HUGE parts inventory to keep up. I always let the factory do the bluing, and replace barrels if needed. The rest is not too difficult if you have some experience.
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Old 10-11-2015, 01:25 AM
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WINCHESTER MODEL1873 LEVER ACTION RIFLE ENGRAVED AND GOLD INLAID BY EMMA ACHLEITHNER.

Emma Achleithner, the lady who engraved this 1873 Winchester taught me the basics of engraving. Her husband, Frantz, taught me gunsmithing. Both of these wonderful individuals taught at OIT while I was there in the late 1970's. Frantz took a leaf off an old truck spring home & two weeks later brought in a complete double set trigger assembly for a double barrel shotgun that he had created using only hand tools. He annealed the spring in Emma's kitchen oven, laid out the design & hand drilled the periphery of the parts before sawing the outlines with a hacksaw, then finishing each part with a hand file. He disdained the use of machinery when the job could be done by hand. It was a beautiful creation, with the finish slow rust blueing and wheat straw coloring on the triggers and springs.

We would hang around after hours & talk with Frantz, listening while he shared his life experiences. He had trained at Ferlach, Austria as a master gunsmith, then apprenticed to become a master tool & die maker. His first year as apprentice consisted of sweeping and wiping machinery & hand filing a lump of steel into a perfect square. Next, he was instructed to hand file the square into a sphere, and with that accomplished, so was his time as an apprentice.

He was inducted into the Werschmant after the Anschluss & ended up on Eastern front where he was captured at Stalingrad. Because he was an Austrian, he received better treatment & eventually was released to return home. He talked of walking for two months to make the journey. After the war, he made his living by scrounging old tools that had been lost in burned out factories & refurbishing them for his own use, while building sub-caliber rifles for the farmers to use for rodent control as all firearms had been confiscated by the Allies.

Both Frantz & Emma have passed, but their work is still around & a few of us remember some of the tricks he taught. My favorite is: "Ven you need to drill a hard receiver, like an Eddystone, find the cheapest carbon drill you have, make sure it is sharp and then heat it up red hot. Hold it vith a pliers & shtick it in a red onion - the sugar vill carbonize & hardface the drill & you can drill through glass vith it! (it also makes your shop smell vonderful)"
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:41 AM
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I really enjoy driving over to my smith...but once Jim Hoag is gone, I'm completely out of luck here in gun hating Cali...
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:36 AM
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I really enjoy driving over to my smith...but once Jim Hoag is gone, I'm completely out of luck here in gun hating Cali...
Alan Tanaka.
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:25 PM
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I really enjoy driving over to my smith...but once Jim Hoag is gone, I'm completely out of luck here in gun hating Cali...
Speaking of, San Francisco's last gun shop is closing due to all the stupid regulations imposed.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:41 PM
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Guess I am lucky I have a buddy that is a "retired" smith but will still work on revolvers for friends. I just dropped one off yesterday for timing and push off issues. He told me he would have it fixed in a week or so.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:12 PM
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...push off issues.
What is that?
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:36 PM
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What is that?
Re "push off issues." I shouldn't answer this because I'm not sure but I think it means the hammer will fall if pushed forward by hand without pulling the trigger.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:01 AM
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Some of you members up around NYC ought to remember George Beitzinger (spelling?) He did up a battered A3 springfield for me many years ago. I recently read in the Accurate forums that George had retired and sold his lathe. He used to do some beautiful custom rifles that were featured in the yearly Gun Digest. Frank
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:30 AM
Usmc5811 Usmc5811 is offline
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What is that?
Inusuit is correct. I would cock the hammer and with a little bit of pressure the hammer would fall. Not very safe.
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Old 10-13-2015, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Usmc5811 View Post
Inusuit is correct. I would cock the hammer and with a little bit of pressure the hammer would fall. Not very safe.
Thanks for the info. Yes, this is incredibly unsafe and a gun should never do this. I'm glad you got it fixed.
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:37 PM
Ramrod90 Ramrod90 is offline
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Hey fellas, first post.
While it is true that Franz is no longer around, Emma, (my grandma), is still around and loving life. I started an account here just now because I would like to get in contact with a gunsmith that was taught by my grandpa. I have a oberndorf action that Franz fully tuned up and smoothed out. In honor of it being an heirloom piece, I was hoping to find one of his students to help me barrel it. I am looking into an obermyer barrel blank. This is something of a journey for me, any help would be greatly appreciated. Also, I would love to hear any more stories of them in their early days. sorry to thread jack.

One last thing. I still have a few of the large 1950's and 1960's Gun Digest magazines that feature some of her work.



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WINCHESTER MODEL1873 LEVER ACTION RIFLE ENGRAVED AND GOLD INLAID BY EMMA ACHLEITHNER.

Emma Achleithner, the lady who engraved this 1873 Winchester taught me the basics of engraving. Her husband, Frantz, taught me gunsmithing. Both of these wonderful individuals taught at OIT while I was there in the late 1970's. Frantz took a leaf off an old truck spring home & two weeks later brought in a complete double set trigger assembly for a double barrel shotgun that he had created using only hand tools. He annealed the spring in Emma's kitchen oven, laid out the design & hand drilled the periphery of the parts before sawing the outlines with a hacksaw, then finishing each part with a hand file. He disdained the use of machinery when the job could be done by hand. It was a beautiful creation, with the finish slow rust blueing and wheat straw coloring on the triggers and springs.

We would hang around after hours & talk with Frantz, listening while he shared his life experiences. He had trained at Ferlach, Austria as a master gunsmith, then apprenticed to become a master tool & die maker. His first year as apprentice consisted of sweeping and wiping machinery & hand filing a lump of steel into a perfect square. Next, he was instructed to hand file the square into a sphere, and with that accomplished, so was his time as an apprentice.

He was inducted into the Werschmant after the Anschluss & ended up on Eastern front where he was captured at Stalingrad. Because he was an Austrian, he received better treatment & eventually was released to return home. He talked of walking for two months to make the journey. After the war, he made his living by scrounging old tools that had been lost in burned out factories & refurbishing them for his own use, while building sub-caliber rifles for the farmers to use for rodent control as all firearms had been confiscated by the Allies.

Both Frantz & Emma have passed, but their work is still around & a few of us remember some of the tricks he taught. My favorite is: "Ven you need to drill a hard receiver, like an Eddystone, find the cheapest carbon drill you have, make sure it is sharp and then heat it up red hot. Hold it vith a pliers & shtick it in a red onion - the sugar vill carbonize & hardface the drill & you can drill through glass vith it! (it also makes your shop smell vonderful)"
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:18 PM
hanover67 hanover67 is offline
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If all of the gunsmiths are going away, how does Brownells stay in business? Their catalogue of gunsmithing tools gets thicker every year...
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:45 PM
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I really enjoy driving over to my smith...but once Jim Hoag is gone, I'm completely out of luck here in gun hating Cali...
You might want to try Roddy Toyota in Oregon or Ed Masaki in Hawaii. Both have sterling reputations in the bullseye world.
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Old 01-30-2016, 04:45 PM
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If all of the gunsmiths are going away, how does Brownells stay in business? Their catalogue of gunsmithing tools gets thicker every year...
My experience is that Brownell's primary customers now are people who think they are gunsmiths . . . Much like Lowes and Home Depot cater to people who think they are carpenters . . .
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:01 PM
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I needed the services of a 'smith recently & was surprised to find very few still around.
You should see California. I started gunsmithing because I tried to get a simple trigger job on a Beretta and the "lead time" was six months. Ridiculous and the prices are obscene.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:11 PM
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All the real smiths around here have passed. All that's left is
guys who can put a part in a sem-auto who think they are smiths. I looked for over a year to find a smith to cut barrel
and reset sight on a SA. The big name boys will do it but the
estimate they give you will make your head spin. They don't
want run of the mill jobs, so they price you out. I ha d to send
gun to Texas from Ohio to get done. It wasn't cheap, but fair
and work was very good, with just a few weeks turn over.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:18 PM
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In a word, yes...
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Old 01-30-2016, 09:09 PM
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My 'smith, Bill, passed sometime in '07, about the time of my accident. Once I was physically able to get back into shooting, I had to find a 'smith that I could have confidence in. I have been fortunate, in that I have had little need for a 'smith.

When my Model 57 stopped working properly, it went back home to the factory. When I needed a bolt gun to be glass bedded, I turned to a member of my gun club, and I was impressed at the job. Fortunately, to get to his shop, which is open part time, it is a 2+ hour trip. However, I had two needs for my Remington 700 Long Range. The first need was to get the receiver drilled and tapped for a Redfield rear sight base. The few "'smiths" around here that would consider the job were talking a $100 plus, with at least a week turn around, which was unacceptable. Fortunately, a friend suggested Bobby Hart (of the Hart barrel family) in Nescopeck Pa, a 4+ hour drive. Bobby quoted less than $100, with less than a 2 hour turn around. When I finished, his shop drilled and tapped the receiver, cut a retention groove on the muzzle for the front sight, and some trigger work, all for about $130.

The second issue was more catastrophic. Typically, 2 out of 3 rounds fired required the assistance of a 2x4 to open the bolt. Club members felt that my loads were too hot. Close examination of the spent brass showed scratches parallel to the bore, suggesting a rough chamber, 2 weeks before Camp Perry. A quick call, and I had an appointment for the next day. It was about an $80 shop visit, but I had a same day turn around for an extremely rough chamber being polished. Bobby's shop is now getting all of my rifle work.

Sadly, I think all that my handguns will be returned to the factory when they need functioning repairs, with the exception of my Mauser HSC. I doubt few of my handguns will get race jobs.
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Old 01-30-2016, 11:55 PM
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Yes the good ones are retiring and the void is not being back filled.

I started buying surplus rifles and restocking them with Fajen factory 2nd stocks. Learned to glass bed actions. All things one reads about but no one within 200 miles to do it.

Started action repair for the same reason. It eventually became my night job. Finally I wanted to do other things or gain time back to work on my stuff.

While in STL I traded into a Manlicher Schoenour in 270, Nice. Gun show. It had some cheap dinged scope mounts on it. When I went to remove them someone had ruined the screws on the rear mount. I took it to a smith, leave it, don't know when, $50 per hole to remove them. I took the gun home, bought a table top drill press, drilled them out filed down a nail, hardened it, tapped it in and the screws came right out. This paid for the drill press that was used many times.

When I was in my early 20's there was a pawn shop-gun shop close by, the owner was a quiet but nice guy, he preferred to do real gunsmithing work in the back and let his sons run the shop. I hung out in the back learning all I could from him. I thought was he did was incredible. Pulling bbls, rebarreling, cutting in chambers. Fixing handguns. I did learn from him and he also went too quickly.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:12 AM
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I hear guys complain all the time about the cost of gun smith services or anything to do with guns. They think a rate of $65/hr is outlandish.
Thats less than most car dealerships charge per hour for engine work.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:47 AM
John Frederick Bell John Frederick Bell is offline
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As somebody who's looking at the pointy end of graduating this May with a gunsmithining ticket I'd hope it's not a dying field. That said, there's some complicating factors here.

A good deal of this question depends on what services are required.

Good stockmakers? They're out there. Same for good machinists, good refinishing outfits, and custom rifle builders. I'd venture a guess that a customer could have the same work done on a gun today as he could twenty years ago - the trick is finding all those services under the same roof.

Before I started here I used to wonder where all the graduates were going. Figure an average of 10-15 newly-minted gunsmiths heading out the door every year from this school alone...seems like the shortage wouldn't be so bad.

Thing is, a lot of my class (which can fairly be called competent, if green) are looking at work with the big names. Instead of thinking about opening their own shop they're either angling for a spot with some of the manufacturers, looking into government agencies that need armorers, or trying to get on with a shop that's already got an established name.

This doesn't do much for the dearth of small-town gunsmithing operations, I admit, but it is what it is.
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Old 01-31-2016, 03:24 AM
Kobold_27 Kobold_27 is offline
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"Quote: 'Is gunsmithing a dying art?"

YES.
-----------------------------------------

I am so thankful that my Father's avocation is that of Gunsmithing. He has taught me a lot over the years. My interest in it naturally grew and I have sought out more knowledge for myself. I have not had the luxury of going to a proper trade school, which I want to do so very much it is on my bucket list.

Please check out this guy and his compatriots at AGI, American Gunsmithing Institute:

Meet Your Gunsmithing Instructor | American Gunsmithing Institute

I own nearly every DVD that has Bob Dunlap's name on it, even if I don't own the gun. He's one of the last of the Grand Masters and I fear that once he's gone, no one will ever replace him. I sure hope I get to meet him one day.

I can detail strip any Smith & Wesson revolver down to its last bits, tune the action, straighten a bent ejector rod (properly), etc. I didn't learn all this from the AGI videos, but they are just plain fun for me to watch and rather soothing when I'm stressed out, which nowadays is far too often. I have found good deals on AGI videos on Midway and Ama-zone (check spelling -don't want those guys in on any profits from me).

I strongly suggest getting the Jerry Kuhnhausen books and every last one of the Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks books if you can! There are some really great free videos on Brownell's website and on U-tube as well, just be careful who the source is in U-tube.

There are many other sources out there, but we warned, it can very likely become an addiction. As an example, there are Gunsmithing tools that I have spent several hundred dollars on that I have used exactly ONCE. Such tools made all the difference in the world and I was able to produce truly professional results. Although once my Dad and friends learned that I had it, err.. uhh.., such a tool, they wanted to borrow it. In one case, I still have never gotten one such tool back from my Dad; oh well, I know where he lives!

I believe that the only way that we can bring back Gunsmithing is from the ground roots up. I love AR platform rifles, but let's face it, they are like building Erector stets. A true Gunsmith, NOT ME, but the real deal can build a gun with a file, flame, and a hammer (maybe a couple other tools...).

I wish I lived in different times.

Not sure what I have contributed to this post, other than I encourage all of you to get cracking on your own projects, from building an AR to maybe even finding an old beat up Smith and taking it apart and learning on your own.

It's better than watching broadcast TV with 3 minute segments of show jammed between 6 minutes of tepid commercials!

Best,

Michael
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Old 01-31-2016, 04:02 AM
Kobold_27 Kobold_27 is offline
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Originally Posted by John Frederick Bell View Post
As somebody who's looking at the pointy end of graduating this May with a gunsmithining ticket I'd hope it's not a dying field. That said, there's some complicating factors here.

A good deal of this question depends on what services are required.

Good stockmakers? They're out there. Same for good machinists, good refinishing outfits, and custom rifle builders. I'd venture a guess that a customer could have the same work done on a gun today as he could twenty years ago - the trick is finding all those services under the same roof.

Before I started here I used to wonder where all the graduates were going. Figure an average of 10-15 newly-minted gunsmiths heading out the door every year from this school alone...seems like the shortage wouldn't be so bad.

Thing is, a lot of my class (which can fairly be called competent, if green) are looking at work with the big names. Instead of thinking about opening their own shop they're either angling for a spot with some of the manufacturers, looking into government agencies that need armorers, or trying to get on with a shop that's already got an established name.

This doesn't do much for the dearth of small-town gunsmithing operations, I admit, but it is what it is.

I think that I would like to talk to you my friend. I'm on what looks like my third career. I believe exactly as you say, finding it all under one roof is very difficult. Perhaps we could do some research for some help from NRA or GOA and get something going? Please PM me if you want to talk some time.

Best,

Michael
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Old 01-31-2016, 11:21 AM
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I think that our current society is not producing the "type of personality" folks that have "what it takes" as we once did.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:11 PM
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From one who used to do a fair amount of gun work... I can also tell you gunsmithing has changed. It used to be very hard to make a living for anyone with a family. I did mostly shotgun and some handgun work. My best income was from the everyday work...cleaning sights replacement of parts and fixing the stuff the owners screwed up. There was no way to really make money back then building a rifle from a military to custom . The market was there in some small degree but for half the price or less you could buy a nice commercial sporter or Varmint gun. But I came along in the 60s and later after the big changes in firearms came along. Now..it is plastic guns. The major portion of gun owners have changed these days. Use one for a while and trade it in like a used car.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:29 PM
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I have to think that anything that involves serious custom work or detailed repair work is becoming extinct. The work required to become a good Gun Smith is too time consuming for our texting generation. If they can’t learn to do it in two minutes or less they just move on.

Patience, concentration, and problem solving are qualities any good gun smith, or any good auto mechanic, or any good watch repair man should have. These are qualities that the texting generation don’t have for the most part.

Also our work force is changing from what was the USA prior to 1970, and what the USA is fast becoming since congress in 1965 radically changed the legal goals immigration from keeping the same homogeneous culture to changing our culture to a multi-cultural society.

The culture that would produce such craftsmen is fast becoming extinct.
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Old 01-31-2016, 01:44 PM
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There are only three smiths in my area that I'm aware of. One is semi-retired...and his last name IS Smith. I'm not sure if his son is taking the reins or not? but he's done some great work through the years. I only know of two grip makers here in my area. One just did an excellent set of custom grips for me and fitted them to Sabrina's gun yesterday.

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Old 01-31-2016, 06:15 PM
John Frederick Bell John Frederick Bell is offline
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Here thar be opinion and hyperbole and all that fun stuff.

***

I take exception to the idea that the present generation is unwilling to learn. To the contrary...those in my class will generally go several extra miles if need be in the interest of pulling off a complex project properly.

Most of them have smart phones. Doesn't seem to hurt their work any more than some jobs I've seen done by the old hands.

Three things, however, must be stated.

First, for a man to do anything he must have an incentive. Many of us have no desire to do custom Mauser work because it was a requirement - spend $300 on a rifle to cut up, $200 on a stock, $200 more on a barrel blank, and too many smaller expenses and too much shop time to tally. For brevity, let us say that this sporterization process dumps $1500 (on the low end) into a rifle that may sell for $400 on a good day.

In a school environment this is felt less, but a man running his own shop has to pay off his lathe, mill, bluing tanks, and keep the lights on. There's no percentage in the relatively low returns he'll be making while trying to build a name. Unless he's independently wealthy (and if so, why would he open a gunshop?) he's going to starve long before he reaps any benefits of his skills.

Some might build another if the custom was willing to pay what it was worth. But all these things - the machine work, the hand-fitting of parts, the custom stock, and those lovely presentation-grade finishes - demand a great deal of time and benchwork, and when you add up what is required and what it will cost your average shooter would sooner buy a Remington 700 - which he can get in any caliber, barrel length, and a variety of finishes, new in the box, in the $500-600 range.

There are men out there who can do all these things, and do them well. They will not do these things for starvation wages. Especially when they've got to make a living, support a family, and pay off school debts.

Second, the program here is two years. You hit the ground running and don't stop until they hand you your diploma. What can you learn in two years? Quite a bit - but not everything. Later in the program as the core courses wrap up (and into the third-year program) you begin to see students pursuing the gunsmithing aspects for which they have an appreciation and an aptitude. Some veer towards machining. Some show promise as repairmen. Some live in the bluing shop. Most have a primary skill and a secondary, but very rarely will you find one who can do everything with equal aplomb. Due to logistical snarls and executive meddling, some subjects meant to be covered in depth barely got touched. That's how it goes.

A man who's been at this business the better part of thirty years may rightly rate the title of master gunsmith. These guys don't have thirty years. They have two to three. They are the equivalents of freshly-minted private pilots - the basics are all there, but mastery takes time.

There is one final item to consider. The shooting sports have changed dramatically in the past twenty years. Some of these changes I like, some I don't. Doesn't matter - nobody asked me. My choice is to go with it or not.

Part of this is, I believe, a result of guns like the AR-15 and Gaston Glock's peculiar invention. Anybody with an internet connection can figure out how to build or modify the above. Everything's modular, the customization options are nigh-endless with a minimum of tools, and it's entirely possible to work through an entire gun without having to fit a single part.

The same people who bolt together an AR on their coffee table (no offense intended) tend to balk at the idea of any operation that requires actual gunsmithing skill. Why pay for a custom 1911 when a Glock goes bang every time, requires no break-in, and retails for a fraction of the cost? Moreover, when presented a price sheet for a gun where this is not the case, a customer who's used to living in a drop-in world will be the first to complain about gouging.

The reason a good gunsmith is a fair rarity these days is because most people like having food and shelter on a pretty regular basis, and so will either follow what the consumer wants or see those three hots and cot start slipping away. Much as it pains me to say, the four old guys at the shop who buy one new pre-war Smith every year or so won't keep the lights on. The hordes of tactical shooters who are forever buying ammo and doodads to hang on their mall ninja toys will.

Notice also that those who DO keep that old tradition - the guys who can bring any gun back from splinters and scrap iron or build a custom 1911 that's Glock-reliable - can charge an arm and a leg and still not hurt for business. People whine...people complain...Turnbull, Wilson Combat, and Bowen keep on keeping on.
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Old 01-31-2016, 07:40 PM
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I agree with most of what the previous poster wrote. I learned much of my gunsmithing as an apprentice for periods of time with an old time general gunsmith. He was one of the most cantankerous people I ever met...even before he started teaching me. I knew good work so he didn't have to tell me what was wrong. When I got it right and he picked on my work it was a bit hard to take..I know how to do the stuff I need to do on my guns..but I have a nice little Ithaca that is somewhat rare..So to clean it up and make it really presentable...it is going to Turnbull. I know my limittions and am willing to pay for good work. Of course the gun is worth quite a bit. Turnbull has some great people working for him. Also have a Wilson. He has great people working for him. Can I make one as good as his...Maybe but when I get it done it will have the same or maybe more workin it. Will it be worth what a Wilson goes for. Nope...It ain't a Wilson. Takes a long time to get a good name... mess up one gun..a short time to lose that trust
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Is gunsmithing a dying art?
It's certainly contracting.

On the other hand. The Internet allows craftsmen to serve a national market.

When I need work on an old Ithaca there are two shops in central New York State that do a great job.

When I wanted to have a 1950's Winchester Model 12 go through its half century scheduled maintenance, I sent it to a Model 12 expert in Ohio who replaced any springs that needed changing and made sure that the timing and headspace was spot on.

There will likely be fewer and fewer who can do good work, but the ones who can do good work will be able to reach a larger market.

One thing that many don't appreciate is that firearms can be shipped to an FFL for repair and directly back to the owner. United States Post Office will accept long guns from a non FFL but a non FFL cannot ship a handgun via the Post Office. If you have your own box and bubble wrap, it costs about $35-$40 each way to ship a $1000 shotgun USPS Priority Mail with full insurance. Some UPS and FedEx shops will let a non FFL ship a handgun, but I think they require it to go by Air, which costs more.
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Last edited by bushmaster1313; 01-31-2016 at 10:42 PM.
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