I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I’m in my mid-60’s), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I’ve attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I’m not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I’ve planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He’s been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his “Friend” to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I’m struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media’s “facts” he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I’ve followed John Lott’s work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn’t matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it’s spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I’m unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the “other side” (and sometimes as we are when we’re frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new “facts” by the “world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson”?

Thank you in advance.

For one thing, gun-grabbers inflate their numbers

with deceptive statistics. If you fall off a ladder in your

home, and you own a gun, that is termed a "gun

related accident" .

"Gun Violence" deaths, for instance, include hunting accidents,

police shooting violent offenders, etc.

I agree this isn't about second amendment, but rather personal views. We are all allowed to have them and not have another persons views forced on us.

I have three sons and one of them is anti gun, anti government. Am I trying to "save" him? Nope, he is an adult and can live his life as he see's fit. Am I concerned for him? Yes but again, he is an adult and since we still live in the land of the free, I will defend his right to be what he is.

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Not enough space

Just ask your boy, is he OK with having
his Freedoms and Liberties dictated and
eroded.
If so, get him a tourist VISA to N. Korea
and have him visit with the locals.
Just to see how well it's working out for others
who are accustomed to grabbing their ankles.

Maybe this is considered flippant to some.
It's certainly not meant to be.
It is exactly what i would do.
No apologies.

As stated before, he's a grown man right?


Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Leave your son's views and opinions to himself and your gun collection to your local pro Second Amendment gun club, the NRA or your pro gun friends and relatives.

The commonest denominator of the gun-banners is their absolute refusal to acknowledge the fact that criminals (or terrorists, another kind of criminal) will not abide by the law. The logical disconnect is astounding. But, it does not stop many otherwise intelligent, progressive thinkers from offering up gun bans, buy backs, and confiscatory schemes reminiscent of Australia or the UK. The numbers in those countries will show that these schemes have succeeded in disarming the general, law abiding populace, but allowed the criminal classes to flourish.

Yes, the US has more guns per capita. It therefore follows that we would have a higher percentage of gun crime. Much of which can be attributed to the creation of a permanent underclass, but that's a subject for another place. The media push numbers deliberately skewed to advance an anti-gun agenda, as do many government agencies. If your son is going to rely on the likes of Neil DeGrass-Tyson to do his thinking for him, he may need to be encouraged to really look at the historical context of the 2A in this country, as well as what has happened in countries where the gun banners went on to murder their populaces. If he is intellectually honest he can make up his own mind, and you need not question him about his adult decisions, as he need not question you on yours.

Of course, if you have the chance, get him to the range once in awhile for pure recreation. That is usually the best cure for anti's that I've found.

Good Luck.

PS Just ran across this website:
http://americangunfacts.com/

I would also recommend some of the NRA spokespersons' videos, like Colin Noir. He can speak to a younger demographic pretty well, and cuts right to the chase.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

I have to agree with Watchdog and chuckster... don't try to make your adult son into something you want him to be and that he does not want to be. You had your chance to instill certain values in him while he was growing up. Now that he's grown his value system is his choice... right or wrong.

The Degrasse tweets are senseless BECAUSE they are cold statistics without giving ANY consideration to the detailed breakdown of the gun incidents.
One simple example is that a person who kills someone else using a gun in dire self defense is included in those "raw" statistics, so Degrasse is actually arguing that the intended victim is the one who should have died.
Your son needs to be taught that "the devil is in the details", and he has bee deceived by the Left about the details his entire life.

This type of distortion is a big part of the problem with their arguments. Reading the article the OP linked critically this becomes totally obvious.

The article states that there have been (or will be) approximately the same number of Americans who will "die by household firearms in 2015" as there were killed by terrorists in 2001 - the year of the 9/11 attacks. Then they further state...

Just the fact that by their own numbers ELEVEN of every 23 people "killed by household firearms" are suicides shows how skewed their numbers, and their statements about them are. Nearly half of these folks "killed by household firearms" in fact killed themselves.

While it may be true that firearms are the single most common method of suicide, firearms still accounted for less than half of all suicides. This clearly shows that that if a person is suicidal and a gun isn't available they will find another means. Hanging is the second most common cause, and results in nearly 80% as many deaths, and is far more difficult to prevent or even guard against than suicide by firearms. In fact short of a straight jacket or padded cell there is no way to prevent a suicidal person from hanging themselves.

They also state that for every 1 self defensive use of a firearm, there are 22 other types of shootings. They have to only be counting actual self defense shootings. They can't possibly be counting the number of non-fatal self defense shootings there are, or how many times the mere presence of a self defensive firearm deters the criminal. Many reliable sources estimate that number at 500 thousand to 2.5 MILLION instances per year. 22 times those numbers would mean that there would have to be 11 - 55 million shootings in American homes per year. Not 34,000.

So basically they are skewing AND cherry-picking which statistical "facts" they want to present. But this is typical since the ends justify the means for these types. They don't care what kind of lies they have to tell, as long as they accomplish their goals.

Your son was taught to 'reason' by lefties from grade school thru college. He does't 'know what he doesn't know.' I have to think that 'owning a gun' can only be a valid answer IF one lumps that in with that 'knows how to shoot safely and accurately'. Given that I have started the turn around in 'private ownership of guns is bad' thinking people to 'private ownership of guns is good' people by simply introducing them to the logical analysis of problem solving by the "Pro and Con" method......... Take a large paper tablet and write the problem in concise terms at the top; state a proposed solution to the problem in concise terms; draw a line under; draw a line vertically in the middle of the sheet; label one side pro and one side con. Now comes the mental exercise that requires some honesty. Start writing out the possible pros to the above statements and the possible cons to the above statements. Usually, by the time a page is filled, the answer (at that time and under present circimstances) becomes clear to all but a fanatic who can't bring themselves to break from fixed mantra beliefs.

Example: Problem; I have to walk my children to our parked car after the movie and it is going to be dark. How do I insure their safety in a questionable neighborhood? Solution, have a Policeman escort us.

Restatement of problem/solution: ........Solution, have a handgun concealed and be skillful with it. .......... Work thru those two proposals and see what jumps to the logical solution forefront.

If you are a skillful user of your mind and memory, all this can be done verbally. I hope you get the gist of this theme. I tried as best I can to present it in under 200 words when it is really a 2 credit, semester long Engineering class. ................. Good luck. ............

How old was your son when you introduced him to the shooting sports? My son started seeing and handling, but not shooting, my guns when he was 6. He got a pellet gun when he was 7. He got a single shot .22 when he was 8. He got a Ruger 1022 when he was 9. An anti-gunner can try to convince my son that guns are bad, he can talk until he is blue in the face, but nobody is going to convince my son that guns are bad.

If you didn't start your son early enough and nurture his interest over the years, then there may not be much that can be done at this time.

It's interesting how you appear to lay the blame for the differences between you two at the feet of all the outside influences in your son's life.

Have you thought for a moment that your adult son may simply have a different opinion about certain things than you do ?

It's nice to be agreed with, but after giving it a good bit of thought, I've removed my original reply to the OP. Apologies to the members who took the trouble to read my comments and hit the "Like" button.

This is not a 2A-related issue, and it's my opinion it shouldn't even be in this section of the forum.

The OP should bear in mind that although the Second Amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, in no way does it require anyone to do so.

Some people are 'gun' people and others are not.
Another old saying: Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.

He will now have to come to his own conclusions that he wants to employ firearms into his life. Some things that may help:
Walk him through disturbing scenarios where the police are far away or may not come at all.
Encourage him and spouse to go to a NRA familiarization class to gain comfort.
Invite him to the gun range and walk him through your firearms.
Suggest a concealed class, even if he never intends to carry, just to become more comfortable with terms/laws/scenarios that may be presented in his life.

These are but a few of the things one could do. You could also start by donating or buying him an inexpensive .22 rifle to 'plink' with when he feels like shooting and see if it grows on him.

The problem is if you two are 'debating' then you have one side and he has another. Very rarely is this productive in getting someone to change their viewpoints.

He is your son. You've done your best and now he's a grownup. I would not allow ANY societal issue, not even the gun debate to come between me and my children. Seek agreement to disagree or you risk driving a wedge between you and your boy.

"Son, guns are a fact of life in this country. Now, do you want the people you disagree with politically to be the only ones who have guns, or do you think that you should be armed as well?"

__________________
Not in jail.

Don't preach to the choir.

__________________
Semper Fi until I die

Hmmm....Reading and re-reading your first sentence UGlide, what do you want to save your son from? A view point different than yours?

Personally, my daughters sure don't think or act like I did, or do. And that's ok. We've learned to accept each other as we are. How they've chosen to live their lives, really doesn't affect how I live mine.

Long ago, I learned not to live my life thru my children.


WuzzFuzz

He sends you stuff to read........so.......Send him Lotts book(s) ........ get him to agree to read it/them to get a view of both sides of the arguments........

I watch "Morning Joe" on MSNBC....... just to learn how the other side thinks ...... and what and why they believe what they do.

Remember views change as we age and the responsibility of raising kids is added to the mix.

Remind him "stats" are compiled by folks who want to prove a point..... very few are just stats.........look at the term "Mass Shooting"...... any event where 4 or more people are shot..........the term is "a stew" of shooting related to drugs, gangs, terrorists, "work place violence" and crazy people going off the deep end.

In 2003/4 IIRC one of the main reasons the "Assault weapons ban" was not renewed is that there were so few examples of long guns being used in shootings.

I find that logic always effectively counters the anti-gun extremists, provided they can set aside their emotions (which are the basis for support for gun control) and look at this issue logically. For example...

Do I have the right, as a human being, to defend myself and my family should the need arise? (The only possible answer is "of course".) If so, then I must have the right to own the tools I would need to effect that defense. To acknowledge my right to defend myself, while denying me access to firearms, is like acknowledging the right to free speech, but telling me I have no right to own a computer, or a fax machine, or a telephone.

An even more powerful philosophical argument in support of gun rights is that we have a moral and civil obligation to defend ourselves, and that we cannot delegate away that obligation to agents of the state (i.e. the police), as the anti-gun extremists would like to do. One of the most powerful and articulate arguments I have ever read in support of gun rights is Jeffrey Snyder's essay "A Nation of Cowards". I would strongly suggest you forward it to your son and ask him to read it...

A Nation of Cowards

I don't put much effort in trying to convince others to own guns. They need to own the decision, responsibility and discipline that goes along with it, not me. That includes family. It's a big decision for a man and wife with two small kids to bring a gun in the home.

As far as statistics, who cares? Most of those numbers involve idiot gangbangers shooting each other. Maybe it would be better if the numbers were much higher? In any event, no statistic will persuade me that I'd be better off disarming myself. And just as many or more folks are convinced that they don't need a gun in the home or carry. Heck, the overwhelming majority of gun owners never carry a gun on their person. And ya know... it might be a good decision for them.

I have to disagree. If he is your son, you are and should have always been his primary educator. It is never too late to fulfill that roll. I would not argue to the point of causing a rift, but I would not easily see my own flesh and blood misled so terribly, by these agencies of social change that pose as higher education institutions. I suspect his warped opinions of the second amendment are just the surface of the brain washing he has endured at such institutions.

It is never too late. I myself was brainwashed by them, and suffered through that in my twenties. Fortunately I was able to see thought their deceit and also fortunately I can read with comprehension, so reading, rereading, and studying the US constitution myself, and studying the back ground of those that wrote the US Constitution was my greatest aid in regaining my sanity.

Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing. He needs to be made aware of the power of cognitive dissonance, and the power of the repetitive suggestion that he has endured in those institutions. It is no different than the brainwashing first made famous by the Red Chinese in the 1950’s, only now it has been polished and sophisticated into a true science.

I would never give up on a child of mine. I hope you never give up on yours.

I think this is the key here. In order to have a good relationship with your son, your goal needs to be to get him to respect YOUR decision to own guns and your stand on the 2nd Amendment.

So focus on explaining why you believe you are right, not why he is wrong. Too many people on the pro-gun side spend their energy, like some of the comments here too, vilifying the opposition and denying the legitimacy of their arguments. Trying to "save" somebody by implying that he's been brainwashed (you're basically telling him he's an idiot if he believes different from you) is about the most counterproductive way to go about this.

I have quite a few liberal friends who know my interests, and quite a few know I'm carrying. We get into gun control debates. The key for me is to keep it personal. I don't launch into tirades about how the liberal media are lying or try to dissect the 30,000 annual "gun deaths" to "prove" that it's really not that bad. When someone comes with statistics like that tweet above, I tell people that I'm not disputing any numbers, I'm simply explaining why I personally own guns and carry one, and why I believe it's important that we have the right to do so.

It works. I don't "save" or "convert" anyone, but I can get those people who I'd like to be friends with despite their different views to respect mine.

If you start out by telling people that the media are lying to them and their professor brain-washed them, you're already dead in the water.

That is certainly the politically correct answer. I doubt it will do much to deprogram his son’s brainwashing, but it will certainly play well for the politically correct.

If a person doesn't understand the power of cognitive dissonance, and doesn’t understand he has been the victim of the systematic brainwashing that goes on in those institutions that his son attended, then it is very difficult to break that brainwashing.

Also I would never suggest someone is stupid for being brainwashed. In fact it is often easier to brainwash a highly intelligent person than a dumb person. I suggest you do some reading on cognitive dissonance, and on the systematic changes that take place to young people who attend colleges and universities, especially the more prestigious ones like the Ivy League schools.

Suppressing the truth of how the liberal media distorts reality concerning guns, or suppressing the truth about the intentional and systematic brainwashing that takes place in universities does no good. I would not get in a tirade about it, but it is there, it is real, and there are untold examples of it for anyone who still has some ability to fend off the cognitive dissonance that results from years of exposure to one view.

There is an interesting example of this on a TV series called Homeland, where a US Marine is systematically brainwashed by his Muslim captors. If a man with his training and maturity can be brainwashed, just think how easy it is to systematically influence the young who do not have their defenses up and are trusting every word of their instructors. Year after year of this and exposure to others who were already brainwashed by their parents, will take its toll on even the strongest and smartest young person who is desperate to belong.

It does not require torture like the above mentioned TV series, all it takes is consistent social pressure, and repetitive disinformation. Once the years have taken their toll a mind set known as cognitive dissonance becomes established and everything the person sees or reads or hears is filtered by the set of now established beliefs the person has.

The power of this can be seen in cults that get young people and in no time at all have them brainwashed. Nothing short of a intervention will often free them.

If you think the other side of this issue is just a different valid opinion, then we have a serious disagreement. The second amendment says what it says, and only distortion of the words can change that.

I know it is popular and politically correct to believe no one is right and no one is wrong on an issue. Hogwash. There is a right and a wrong on this issue and it may well be the most vital issue of our time.

As a father myself.
Just love your kids no matter what your views or theirs are.
It's all we can do.

Someday soon your son will probably be in your exact same shoes with his children.

Then you can just give that famous grandparent smile.

This is a good example of what I was referring to. You start with this far-out stuff, and no good argument you make about the Second Amendment and gun ownership will have any impact at all, because you've already destroyed all your credibility in the eyes of normal people.

If you really want to debate the statistics with your son, then you'll want to put the numbers in perspective. The link your son provided uses the average of about 30k "gun deaths" each year and then runs with it to invent comparative numbers. What you can do is examine those "gun deaths" as it relates to him.

Below are excerpts form the below link.

There are roughly 32,000 gun deaths per year in the United States. Of those, around 60% are suicides. About 3% are accidental deaths (between 700-800 deaths). About 34% of deaths (just over 11,000 in both 2010 and 2011) make up the remainder of gun deaths and are classified as homicides.

* Is your son planning on committing suicide with a gun? If not, then we can erase about 60% of "gun deaths" as not applicable to him.

In New Orleans, between 35-55% of homicides are classified as gang-related. In Chicago, an estimated 80% of homicides are gang-related. And in Baltimore, the police commissioner states that 80% of homicides are drug-related.

* Is your son a gangbangner or druggie planning to run around killing his gangbanger and druggie adversaries? If not, then we can take the remaining "gun deaths" number and reduce it further using the above as not applicable to him.

----
If his wife was being attacked by a rapist, would he feel that his wife shooting and killing the rapist to defend her life was the wrong choice? If not, then we've about summed this up.

Good luck.

Putting Gun Death Statistics in Perspective

I'm not affiliated with this site and can't vouch for anything on it, but it seems to be fairly comprehensive and the facts are footnoted as to source: Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths

I've heard it said that a liberal is someone who hasn't been mugged yet. I hope your Son doesn't find out the hard way.

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Stay safe people!

The truth only appears to be far out to those suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Every study I have ever read on the impact of university on students belief systems descries the systematic liberalization of college students that increases each year they attend. That is not far out it is reality. There are any number of studies that demonstrate this and they are pretty universal in their findings.

Cognitive dissonance is about as basic as it gets to anyone familiar with the psychology of human beings and what impact their though processes. It is not some far out theory. It is taught at these very universities and colleges under discussion in their psychology departments.

The social pressure to belong that young people, even college age feel is not far out. It is the basis of gang activity, it is the single most significant influence in young people’s lives in high school, and often in college. As a student ages this social pressure increases in high school, and when they are away at university among strangers. Most people need to feel that they belong, and this is a powerful basic human need.

The liberal slant of universities is not far out. It is a fact. From the president down to the professors, universities are bastions of liberalism. It is often a requirement to being hired for such a position.

Given this even if there is no guiding hand the elements for brainwashing are nicely in place and the brainwashing takes place. Even if there is no planned systematic conspiracy at work the elements for brainwashing are all in place. Perhaps they are not ready to learn about how the system got this way, as to many who have been “influenced” by political correctness, that could at first seem far out. However, knowing the above factual information and understanding how cognitive dissonance works is not far out at all.

Reading the bias in newspaper reporting of gun activity requires only a clear thought process to see how slanted this is from coast to coast.

So I fail to see anything far out in my views.

I ran across this excellent article awhile back, and rather than try to reprint the whole thing here, I'll just link to the thread:

Terrific Article on the Mind of an Anti-gunner

It is an enlightened approach to deal with those that would destroy our 2A.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

My brother spent 4 years as a Marine in Viet Nam.

He never saw combat, just the aftermath.

He was known as a "POG".

He joined up on his own accord, not drafted.

While we grew up together, he was always be the one that brought home the wild game because he was a better shot than me.

Since he was a Marine, I assumed that when I bought my M&P 15, he'd like to inspect and handle it for "old time's sake" if nothing else.

He wouldn't even look at it, let alone handle it.

He just said, "I have no desire to handle it, I don't like guns".

His answer was good enough for me, so I locked it back up and that's been the last of it.

No one can influence another's convictions and he's my brother.

What does bug me though, is when my Pop passed in 2010 my brother inherited his firearms since he was the first born, and I know he isn't caring for them.

He owns no firearm cleaning tools and won't bring them to me so I could provide them the love and care they deserve.

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AKA: "Strange Tamer"

They want to live in a 5 story warehouse with metal lined walls. They think our trucks are stupid, and think we should drive lil hybrid cars. They've never had to punch a time clock. They have been sheltered all their life. They think reality is a video game. They hate guns, they dislike the police because they are considered "The Man"! They dislike sports or sporting events (such as football)! They drink strange flavored lite beer. Their day of ruffing it is, sitting in a Star Bucks and not getting good service. There is no gender in their world. No male or females. They've never had to worry about their lights being cut off, due to lack of payment. Or feeding their family the next week. 60% of them work from home. And if their internet is shut down a day, and if Twitter or instagram is down, it's a major catastrophe. They have never been in a fist fight and feared for their life. They've never had their car or house broken into. They have never lost a good friend in a senseless act of violence.

And your trying to explain why you would need or want a Gun for personal or your families protection?

GOOD LUCK!!

He wouldn't allow you to be a friend on Facebook if you became a member? There's a bigger problem than views on the second amendment. Sorry to be blunt but you asked.

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Back to back World War Champs.

I am one who generally argues forcefully against the conspiracy theories, but in this case I'm afraid I have to agree with finesse_r. It isn't so much a conspiracy, as it is a closed, hot-house, almost incestuous environment. Schools of higher education are generally in urban areas and steeped in liberalism. This results in so any of the people there traveling in exclusively liberal circles and spending all their time with others of the same liberal mindset to the point that their attitudes become ingrained and reinforced through repetition. They so seldom interact with anyone who is NOT of a liberal mindset that they are convinced that only a small, ignorant minority hold conservative views.

WHOA! Hold on a minute there pard! I've earned three sets of "letters" after my name, and only finished earning the last set less than 15 years ago. I have PLENTY of experience with academia and higher education, and it isn't all a bunch of out-dated ancient history either.

I don't "bash" higher education, and really haven't seen anyone else in this thread do so either. I think I have a pretty clear-eyed view of the reality on college campuses, and I agree 100% with finesse_r's assessment. Even though the things he says are unpopular in some circles, that doesn't make them "bashing".

FWIW, my primary education is in the field of engineering. Now as you may (or may not) know, engineers are generally a pretty conservative bunch. Everything they do is based in science and physical reality, so there aren't too many who are of a radically liberal bent. They are oriented toward the rational and logical - not the emotional.

BUT, even in an engineering ONLY school - like the one where I got my main credentials - there is still a pretty strong streak of liberalism amongst the tenured professors. Especially those whose entire career has been in education, and those who do not teach the "hard" sciences. Interestingly enough this is less true of those who have spent a good portion of their career working in industry rather than academia. There are also a lot fewer people teaching the hard sciences who are of a liberal mindset.

Not bashing liberalism either. There are other forms of intelligence besides that which dominates the math and science arenas, and they are no less important or valid. I'm just making the observation that, in my experience, those who are oriented towards mathematics and sciences are more commonly conservative.

All that to say, that in my years on college campuses spanning the period from 1989 to 2002, I saw a very strong streak of liberalism in the world of higher education. Just as finesse_r stated. That has been my experience, FWIW.

Where does he live in CA? If he's anywhere near me, I'd be happy to run him through a NRA Basic Pistol or Shotgun class for free. There is no better teacher than experience. Get him out shooting and maybe we can alter his perspective.

I'll provide the guns and ammo for the course as well.

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Freedom isn't free.

Actually most people won't change their views and opinions until something dramatic happens directly to them. My guess is every person on the floor in California when the shooting started was wishing they had a gun of any kind. Most probably an hour earlier were voting for more gun control. Sometimes it's just easier to live in a perfect make believe world. Sometimes, sadly, reality sucks. I wish you the best of luck.

People make decisions based on what they believe and what the people around them believe. IF all his associations are anti-gun people tend to realign their beliefs and values to align with them. It is subconscious and probably an evolved survival mechanism to not be out of step with the tribe.

I recommend moving him in baby steps. Encourage him by reminding him about the fun of shooting and that 99% of it is hobby which trains you for the 1% chance it might be useful for selfdefense.

IF he shoots with you again bring only fun guns. 22, shotguns and revolvers.

Encourage him to get some fun guns a 22, a decent target revolver/pistol and 22 and maybe a good revolver. Get him a 686Plus as gift after he gets his fun 22s.

LEAVE HIM alone except when visiting see if he will take you out with his fun guns and just enjoy the time together and don't preach.

Preaching never works. Let him have fun again.

All I can say, is don't ''give up the ship'' kinda thing. Adults need to learn to think to--instead of blindly charging into machine-gun fire like fanatics. I am slowly changing the mind of one lemming here logically. He's enjoyed the trips we have made to the range since July, and loves blowing the targets to smithereens.

Keep chipping away at your son like the antis keep doing to the 2nd. Being he's an adult and mentioned here already to let him go his own way, I disagree to a bit. Reason being, is I'll bet you my last buck, that while in college, the lemming professors did their beset to brainwash him. Their brainwashing needs to be countered.

Ii think Big Cholla has said it best. Looks like the ops son, been brainwashed by his anti-gun professors. What the Ops son doesn't know ain't his fault, nor the op himself. I thank God, that all my great nephews and nieces, are being trained to think for themselves, are being raised with guns and being taught how to use them and good gun sense. Last time I was on the range with them, they were doing pretty darn good. I don't impress easily, but I was impressed.

I have four great nieces, two gr nephews. Two are too young to handle guns, the rest do very well. Soon I aim to ''graduate'' two of them, to the use of my Walther P-38.

I think he simply wants to 'save' his son from the one-sided education he got from the ward churchills of the country.

Well that's just it.... Ya got em for 18 years (some even longer). If ya can't get the message through in 18 years while they're living at home, my guess is that sending a pro-gun e-mail to the son with advice from the Net isn't going to yield much.

18 years... it goes fast. Get it done right.

BS and you know it. First, don't lump all of us into the same group. I lived in Houston longer than I wanted, and was force-fed the lib BS daily. Then I moved to Austin, was among people all the time. The u,t. students are mostly brainwashed by their anti-American lib professors. I lived among them and saw their hatred for the USA, the Constitution ,the 2nd Amendment especially, and anyone who dared to disagree with their upside down mentality. You do? your automatically a racist or some-kind of phob. I'm not a racist and certainly not a phob.

You sir, can't speak for everyone who disagrees with you as you have not seen things through their eyes or heard things first-hand, through their ears! Its conservatively estimated that at least 85 - 90% of all educators, are not conservative.

I fully agree and thank my lucky stars for the things my dad taught me starting early.

This may have been mentioned, but if not, have your son ask Ol' Neil if he's checked the numbers of people saved by firearms.
That's a sobering but hard to find number.
But heck, he's a scientist and they're known to dig for the truth.

Please note the choice of words used - "often," rather than "all."


My personal experience with post-secondary education was one of acquiring skillsets, rather than indoctrination. I had enough of that growing up in a Socialist Democrat country, where as an American, I was the enemy.

Critical independent thinking was encouraged over blind allegiance to ANY particular political bent at the institutions I attended.

To pretend that the reverse-snobbery toward education (and often the educated) on forums such as these doesn't exist is a bit silly, IMO.

we all have opinions, likes and favorites............dont try to "save" those who have a different point of view...............

__________________
There's nowt so queer as folk

It sounds as if that socialist democratic education took root.
I say that because anyone who disagrees is apparently a snob.

My perspective on those numbers is similar to BC38's.

They're mixing "those killed by others" (i.e. terrorist attacks, murders) with those in total killed by guns. As was stated - over half of gun deaths are suicides. (My knowledge of the numbers: ~32,000 killed by guns annually. About 12,000 of those 32,000 are people killed by someone else pulling the trigger....i.e. murders.)

I looked up some data just this weekend: According to some website that tracks mass shootings, about 450 people have died in the US this year from mass shootings. Over 400 have been shot and killed this year IN CHICAGO ALONE. There is all this heat and discontent about mass shootings, but where are people outraged about urban violence?

This is my primary point to my friends: If our goal is reduce deaths from guns the priority is EXTREMELY clear: Suicide. We must be willing to talk about it. We must be willing to address it. I'm not saying the 450 who die from mass shootings aren't important. But if someone points to that as "the clear problem" my response is "You clearly don't understand the numbers."

And as an aside: Want to compare the 12,000 killed by guns at the hands of others with the equivalent on the smoking side? That would be looking at deaths from secondhand smoke: Over 50,000. *Four times* as many people are killed by others with cigarettes as are killed by others with guns. Where is the outrage over that?

And lastly: Cigarettes IN TOTAL kill over *400,000* each year. Where is the concern for life there?

As gun owners I think we have a moral obligation to try and reduce the number of people killed by guns. Our republic is designed to fight for those who can't. We should be standing up to reduce the killing of people by guns. People say mainstream Christians need to speak out against extremist Christians. And mainstream Muslims must speak out against Muslim extremism. Well - I believe gun owners need to decry people being killed inappropriately. I don't accept that that is the "price of freedom". But also, if people come to me and talk about how terrible it is, I say "Great. Let's REALLY talk about how terrible it is."

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